1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

If the same holds true for NOVA, other nationals and Worlds, then you have to wonder where this supposed "sour mood" actually stems from, because it was certainly nowhere to be seen in the events I've been to.

It stems from their "bad dice", but also because they can't roll dice to defend against bombs... And yes, they will often make these statements nearly back to back, completely oblivious to what they're saying.

You'll find these people in their natural habitat, on the low-middle tables of any tournament, trying to one-up each other with tales of would-be glory. If only their dice didn't crap out.

7 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

It stems from their "bad dice", but also because they can't roll dice to defend against bombs... And yes, they will often make these statements nearly back to back, completely oblivious to what they're saying.

You'll find these people in their natural habitat, on the low-middle tables of any tournament, trying to one-up each other with tales of would-be glory. If only their dice didn't crap out.

Nah, I spent most of my time this year on the low-to -middle tables and had a blast with any number of great players and people.

I'm starting to think the vocal minority doesn't actually play at all

We try to avoid it as much as possible.

The problem also manifests itself as jealousy, too.

Sure, all of those big events mentioned are awesome... but if you physically cannot attend them, you never see it, and it becomes patently unbelievable.

6 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Nah, I spent most of my time this year on the low-to -middle tables and had a blast with any number of great players and people.

I'm starting to think the vocal minority doesn't actually play at all

Gotta say I had a period of almost no play the last month and I was afraid to come back given the state of the forums, but now playing X-Wing on a relatively competetive level again in VASSAL league I just love it. Even playing with and against the meta. The game is just great - sure I wish that some things would work better (like TIE Bombers, my favourite ship), but avoiding those the experience still is good.

23 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

I'm starting to think the vocal minority doesn't actually play at all

This is basically the issue. The people yelling about the meta dont play or at least dont play tournaments. They just hate that some people like competitive play and would prefer that tournaments were eliminated so competitive players wouldnt have fun.

14 minutes ago, emperorscanaries said:

This is basically the issue. The people yelling about the meta dont play or at least dont play tournaments. They just hate that some people like competitive play and would prefer that tournaments were eliminated so competitive players wouldnt have fun.

That isn't it so much as they want to be able to play casually or not at all and then go to a tournament and not get ROFLstomped. But since that is the only organized play offered really its the only thing they can do without setting something up like HoTAC or special rules tournaments. On the competitive side, we play 2-3 times a week and have our test groups that are constantly discussing the meta and how to fly. Tournaments are what we live for, and we practice and hone A LOT to get there.

I see both sides, I really do. Where I come to an issue is when you start attacking people. I understand WHY there is a lot of bad feelings towards competitive players, but that doesn't make it OK to attack them online (or in person). It is not competitive players fault for playing competitively at competitive events. It is also not Casual player's fault for playing the game casually and wanting to have some sort of casual organized play to go to and socialize. There are options and avenues open to casual players to enjoy a more casual organized play, they just take a bit of work and its not competitive players fault that they aren't the standard.

We are all one community, attacking each other gains nothing but more hate in an already hate filled world.

13 minutes ago, emperorscanaries said:

This is basically the issue. The people yelling about the meta dont play or at least dont play tournaments. They just hate that some people like competitive play and would prefer that tournaments were eliminated so competitive players wouldnt have fun.

You might... want to rephrase that one. It sounds like you're picking on the casual flyer crowd which would be in error. I fly both competitive and casual and strangely enough both crowds are about the same. Everybody ultimately is there to have fun, no matter what they play. Most are focused enough on their own style of fun that they don't even discuss the other group's format.

I was just talking to some of the players in my local scene last night: a big-time organizer (used to be ... ), a serious competitor (placed highly at the biggest tournaments), and a competitive player (who nevertheless doesn't fly meta).

We were talking about "shaming," because there's this (frankly, a little funny and sad at the same time) cry from the meta-cheese crowd against "shaming." ("It's legal, so I'm allowed to do it. You shouldn't be allowed to shame me.") Some other very-well liked players have disappeared from our scene. I was wondering why. "Because they can't reasonably fly a reasonable list. They don't mind losing, but people actually make fun of them for not flying the strongest lists."

Now I'm a very big, very imposing guy, so nobody has ever done that to me, or likely ever will. So I was surprised, but -- looking back on it, it makes sense: they were effectively shamed out of our local meta. (Which, BTW, has taken a serious hit in numbers. Gee, I wonder why.)

As another example, there's a short video floating around. A serious competitive player is reacting -- with a mix of sincerity and mockery -- to two other players expressing their belief on what's fun and/or strong to fly.

As with most things, shaming is apparently quite the double-standard.

13 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Because they can't reasonably fly a reasonable list. They don't mind losing, but people actually make fun of them for not flying the strongest lists.

I believe that this is precisely something we want to be solved proper balancing.

Lower tier lists will always exist. But can they put up a good fight or are they a laughig stock?

The whole issue around netlisting, meta cheese, shaming etc is directly proportional to the imbalance.

As usual, GD, I agree.

So it's not appropriate, IMO, to talk about "fault," but I would still like to see a little less defensive abdication of "responsibility."

As a quick note, the topmost tables of a competitive event are anything but sour. At NOVA, for example, we spent most of our time cracking jokes and laughing. It was a great time, as I'd say 95% of my games are in X-Wing.

The high end competitive players are out to have fun, just like anyone else playing the game.

On-topic: how many nationals are left? Australia and Spain are the only ones I know of.

11 minutes ago, pheaver said:

As a quick note, the topmost tables of a competitive event are anything but sour. At NOVA, for example, we spent most of our time cracking jokes and laughing. It was a great time, as I'd say 95% of my games are in X-Wing.

The high end competitive players are out to have fun, just like anyone else playing the game.

On-topic: how many nationals are left? Australia and Spain are the only ones I know of.

Still mad Travis used most of my jokes, and that you didn't slam off the board as I suggested.

Nordic Nats is this weekend I think.

Edit: october 6-8 in Danmark

8 minutes ago, pheaver said:

As a quick note, the topmost tables of a competitive event are anything but sour. At NOVA, for example, we spent most of our time cracking jokes and laughing. It was a great time, as I'd say 95% of my games are in X-Wing.

The high end competitive players are out to have fun, just like anyone else playing the game.

On-topic: how many nationals are left? Australia and Spain are the only ones I know of.

My jokes increase as the day goes on and I get loopy. My favorite matches have been final tables or top cut games. I will also talk a lot of “trash” depending on opponent, it’s always fun going back and forth.

2 minutes ago, pheaver said:

As a quick note, the topmost tables of a competitive event are anything but sour. At NOVA, for example, we spent most of our time cracking jokes and laughing. It was a great time, as I'd say 95% of my games are in X-Wing.

The high end competitive players are out to have fun, just like anyone else playing the game

I wonder if part of the reason is that you guys are so close in general skill and ‚objective list strength‘ (however that would be determined) that individual decisions are again extremely important and fun. Playing with a larger difference in list or general skill changes that to a point where it‘s a bit more frustrating.

14 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

As usual, GD, I agree.

So it's not appropriate, IMO, to talk about "fault," but I would still like to see a little less defensive abdication of "responsibility."

Oh my view is less benevolent than yours - with the exception of highest tournaments I think cheese is simply wrong to do/use. My reasoning is that using tricks stifles growth in the mid/long term, because once your trick is found out you are back at the bottom.

I admit that using the best lists is not exactly the same, but it is close enough for me, personally.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Oh my view is less benevolent than yours - with the exception of highest tournaments I think cheese is simply wrong to do/use.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. But I'm wrong for taking a strong list to a local event because I am practicing for a large one. What is wrong is telling another person how they are allowed to have fun. There is zero complaining from anyone if I or another top local player show up to a small event with a "cheese" list. Because even our less competitive locals understand that they came to a tournament, and that they should not be surprised to see strong players with strong lists.

9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I wonder if part of the reason is that you guys are so close in general skill and ‚objective list strength‘ (however that would be determined) that individual decisions are again extremely important and fun. Playing with a larger difference in list or general skill changes that to a point where it‘s a bit more frustrating.

Oh my view is less benevolent than yours - with the exception of highest tournaments I think cheese is simply wrong to do/use. My reasoning is that using tricks stifles growth in the mid/long term, because once your trick is found out you are back at the bottom.

I admit that using the best lists is not exactly the same, but it is close enough for me, personally.

That might be some of the reason. But I just want to highlight that the good competitive players are good no matter the meta. Good players are good players, and yes they use the best lists at the time but that is very much secondary. If you would like, I do have the data on player performance to back that up.

Would love to continue the debate but maybe lets not clutter up this thread anymore with it. Shoot me a message on Facebook or reddit (same username). Unfortunately the PM system here is not the greatest.

43 minutes ago, pheaver said:

On-topic: how many nationals are left? Australia and Spain are the only ones I know of.

1st Hungarian Nationals 7.X-8.X in Budapest.

Hungarian X-wing community isn't the biggest one but very active, and as Hungary lies in the very center of the Europe around 100ish players is to be expected. Including swarm of Poles

1 minute ago, Oldpara said:

Including swarm of Poles

I think a swarm of Poles is known as a merry-go-round of Poles. Or maybe it was a gentleman's club of Poles. I'm not sure. But "swarm" is wrong.

Italy is missing too, unfortunately the new publishers has yet to give us a date, they said it will be held around Febraury.

On the other argument of discussion, as an avid player who had the fortune to play at many events top tables, I can confirm PHeaver sentiment: the vast majority of the games, no matter what's the level involved, have great and fun interactions between players. One of the funniest xwing game I have ever had was the final of Tattooine open, and I actually lost that game.

Tournaments, at whatever level you play, are mostly very funny and relaxed events

20 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I think a swarm of Poles is known as a merry-go-round of Poles. Or maybe it was a gentleman's club of Poles. I'm not sure. But "swarm" is wrong.

Is "swarm" inappropriate or maybe pejorative? If somehow yes, and you're trying to make my post nicer, I thank you, but I was referring to myself as I am Pole

I would never use nothing offending against anybody except against myself as sort of a joke.

Apologize for the confusion.

3 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Is "swarm" inappropriate or maybe pejorative? If somehow yes, and you're trying to make my post nicer, I thank you, but I was referring to myself as I am Pole

No, not at all. I was just making a silly pun, which (if I'd thought about it) should have realized might not make it over the idiomatic barrier.

(A "pole" in English is, of course, also a long cylider, such as might be found on a carousel (merry-go-round) or in a strip joint (gentleman's club). So, a "swarm of Poles ... ")

So are there any other nationals we are still missing?

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

No, not at all. I was just making a silly pun, which (if I'd thought about it) should have realized might not make it over the idiomatic barrier.

(A "pole" in English is, of course, also a long cylider, such as might be found on a carousel (merry-go-round) or in a strip joint (gentleman's club). So, a "swarm of Poles ... ")

Thx for the clarification My English is too simple for such subtle analogies And for a while I thought I sounded rude or something.

11 hours ago, LagJanson said:

You might... want to rephrase that one. It sounds like you're picking on the casual flyer crowd which would be in error. I fly both competitive and casual and strangely enough both crowds are about the same. Everybody ultimately is there to have fun, no matter what they play. Most are focused enough on their own style of fun that they don't even discuss the other group's format.

Im clearly not saying anything about casual players. Im saying that in my experience the people complaining the loudest on places like this about the meta, op lists, and netlisting are either not primarily tournament players or at least not serious tournament players.

Both crowds are about the same. 99% cool people having a good time and shooting the ****. I think where they differ is the 1%. The other 1% of tournament players are complete dicks and cheaters that need to be shamed out of the community before they make more players quit. The other 1% of casual players go on forums and complain loudly and constantly about the meta that they dont have to play against or lost to once and the net listers that they dont have to play against or lost to once and need to be shamed out of the community before they make more players quit.