6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Its about making progress, not ignoring a problem because other things hurt more.

No, it's about completely nuking an archetype you don't like, because you think it might, maybe, some day allow the resurgence of an archetype you do like.

Me, I don't have a dog in the fight. I play every faction, every archetype. (With the contrarian exception of hating meta-cheese.) My interest is a balanced game, which is why, of the two of us, I'm the one suggesting the compromise that won't obliterate an upgrade on a ship whose selling point was that upgrade.

Wasn't this thread about Nationals?

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

No, it's about completely nuking an archetype you don't like, because you think it might, maybe, some day allow the resurgence of an archetype you do like.

Me, I don't have a dog in the fight. I play every faction, every archetype. (With the contrarian exception of hating meta-cheese.) My interest is a balanced game, which is why, of the two of us, I'm the one suggesting the compromise that won't obliterate an upgrade on a ship whose selling point was that upgrade.

So, bombing is going to completely stop with the change of Advanced SLAM? Experimental Interface isn't a card in this game? Deathfire can't use Conner Nets? Talk about a strawman.

just like Deadeye Torpboats before it, the SLAMing bombers did harm to other archetypes. And like the Jumpmasters and Deadeye, both K-Wings and Advanced SLAM will find new uses.

I too play every faction and want a balanced game. That is why I am for the Advanced SLAM nerf.

While I'm all for balance, I don't think you're ever going to see truly balanced high ps aces

They're way too feast or famine by design, either effortlessly arcdodging/ just straight green dice tanking or getting absolutely curbstomped by something

19 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

So, bombing is going to completely stop with the change of Advanced SLAM? Experimental Interface isn't a card in this game? Deathfire can't use Conner Nets? Talk about a strawman.

I have been very clear about this.

Bombing on K-wings is going to be dead forever. (It's dead now, but let's nerf it so it stays dead! Yeah!) Except, of course, it will have zero effect on Miranda.

I've said this over and over. And over. And over. And you respond literally as if you didn't read what I wrote, over and over. And over. I'm not sure which would be worse: that you didn't read what I wrote, or that you did, and think if you keep pretending I didn't write it by bringing it up yourself like it's a new thought ... what? I genuinely don't know. You'll ... convince yourself, I guess?

I'm going to try one more time, simply with a Socratic question: What actual, practical effect on the meta will be realized with the AdvSLAM nerf? What, in the meta, will immediately become viable or lose viability, because of the nerf?

(Never mind. Don't bother to answer. There's no point. I just realized that you compared -- I assume with a straight face -- the problems created by JM5Ks with the problems created by Advanced SLAM . You have lost all perspective. I just can't take this seriously any longer.)

Quote

While I'm all for balance, I don't think you're ever going to see truly balanced high ps aces

I think this is possibly true. (To be clear, I think it's possible for aces to be balanced from game to game, but I'm not sure it's possible for aces to be balanced for the entirety of a tournament.) But I'm not so certain of it that I think the possibility of balance should be completely dismissed.

13 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I have been very clear about this.

Bombing on K-wings is going to be dead forever. (It's dead now, but let's nerf it so it stays dead! Yeah!) Except, of course, it will have zero effect on Miranda.

I've said this over and over. And over. And over. And you respond literally as if you didn't read what I wrote, over and over. And over. I'm not sure which would be worse: that you didn't read what I wrote, or that you did, and think if you keep pretending I didn't write it by bringing it up yourself like it's a new thought ... what? I genuinely don't know. You'll ... convince yourself, I guess?

I'm going to try one more time, simply with a Socratic question: What actual, practical effect on the meta will be realized with the AdvSLAM nerf? What, in the meta, will immediately become viable or lose viability, because of the nerf?

Why are you fixated on the current meta? I'm looking to the future and you are stuck in the present. Generic K-Wing bombers went out of style because something precieved better came around. Heck, it wasn't all that long ago that Miranda (who is still a K-Wing) was stilling SLAMing. If the current meta bombing archetypes were all taken care of, do you honestly believe that no one would go back to SLAMing bombers? How? Old archetypes get nercoed into new flavors all the time. That's what I'm worried about in the future and you have yet to prove why that is impossible.

You accuse me of not reading what you say, and yet you continue to miss that I said this type of nerf is a step. It's not going to bring about the return of low health Aces all by itself, but it does make progress towards it. That's what people claim the big March Nerf was about. If others have to accept that

Heck, did you even notice my crack about Experimental Interface? K-Wing bombing will adapt. Just like Jumpmasters. Just like Palp Aces are trying to do.

17 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

(Never mind. Don't bother to answer. There's no point. I just realized that you compared -- I assume with a straight face -- the problems created by JM5Ks with the problems created by Advanced SLAM . You have lost all perspective. I just can't take this seriously any longer.)

I'm sorry that you can't see the similarities. They are quite obvious if you compare what Deadeye torpboats did to Rebel to what's happened with Aces. But if you are okay with that, I guess you are luckier than me.

This is way off topic now What's that Advanced SLAM nerf everyone is talking about? Apparently I am blind when looking at the card.

1 minute ago, Wibs said:

This is way off topic now What's that Advanced SLAM nerf everyone is talking about? Apparently I am blind when looking at the card.

The free action has to be an action on your action bar.

To break this offtop - here is the list juggler link from Polish Nationals. http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3425

15 hours ago, mdl0114 said:

also combines point fortressing and regen, so there's a whole lot that goes into Miranda being arguably the best ship/pilot in the game

Indeed. A k-wing isn't a problem - it's easy to hit, not that tough, and if it SLAMs it shuts down its guns. Mines are a bugger but you only have to eat them a couple of times.

Miranda Doni, on the other hand, is a nightmare combination of lots of synergies:

• Her ability is the only shield regen I can think of which can be used without restricting your dial this turn or next turn or requiring an action.
• Her ability does penalise her attack....except with a twin laser turret she gets two, so it doesn't really mess with that either. And even the 'weaker' attack isn't actually weaker in the specific niche case my squad exists in (I fly Lightweight Frame TIE/sk, which only get 2 green dice against Miranda's 'reduced power shot' anyway, so why wouldn't you?) and is more than enough to reliably hit agility 1/agility 0 targets.
• Her bombs wouldn't be that bad - except she also has a crew slot for Sabine Wren, turning a ship-wounding cluster mine into a near enough auto-kill against lighter fighters.
• Her pilot ability is high enough to SLAM in response to any mid-PS and generic ship, and a speed 2/SLAM 2 arguably gives her more manoeuvre flexibility than a boost/barrel roll type, but without the stress usually incurred by a double action or 180 degree turn. Plus when she does it she can grab a target lock for future use.

She is hands-down my least favourite thing to see on the other side of the board.

43 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Indeed. A k-wing isn't a problem - it's easy to hit, not that tough, and if it SLAMs it shuts down its guns. Mines are a bugger but you only have to eat them a couple of times.

Miranda Doni, on the other hand, is a nightmare combination of lots of synergies:

• Her ability is the only shield regen I can think of which can be used without restricting your dial this turn or next turn or requiring an action.
• Her ability does penalise her attack....except with a twin laser turret she gets two, so it doesn't really mess with that either. And even the 'weaker' attack isn't actually weaker in the specific niche case my squad exists in (I fly Lightweight Frame TIE/sk, which only get 2 green dice against Miranda's 'reduced power shot' anyway, so why wouldn't you?) and is more than enough to reliably hit agility 1/agility 0 targets.
• Her bombs wouldn't be that bad - except she also has a crew slot for Sabine Wren, turning a ship-wounding cluster mine into a near enough auto-kill against lighter fighters.
• Her pilot ability is high enough to SLAM in response to any mid-PS and generic ship, and a speed 2/SLAM 2 arguably gives her more manoeuvre flexibility than a boost/barrel roll type, but without the stress usually incurred by a double action or 180 degree turn. Plus when she does it she can grab a target lock for future use.

She is hands-down my least favourite thing to see on the other side of the board.

As I've said before, Miranda is an excellently designed Pilot. The problem is somehow the TLT made it through the playtesters. Without the TLT Miranda has to choose to boost her offence or regen for defence. A TLT-Miranda on the other hand can just have her cake and eat it.

The fat b*tch.

2 hours ago, Amaimon said:

To break this offtop - here is the list juggler link from Polish Nationals. http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3425

Last time I checked there were only 42 lists entered, including TIE swarms

9 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

While I'm all for balance, I don't think you're ever going to see truly balanced high ps aces

They're way too feast or famine by design, either effortlessly arcdodging/ just straight green dice tanking or getting absolutely curbstomped by something

I mean, that's basically the whole game now isn't it?

Alpha strikes are so good that when you do them right they're too good. Aces are so good that when you do them right they're too good. Bombs are so good that when you do them right they're too good. Action economy is good that when you it right it's too good. Turrets are so good that when you do them right they're too good.

The game is broken and will only ever lurch from one unpleasant extreme to a different unpleasant extreme. That's the deal you accept when you carry on playing.

By the way, here's the current overview for the polish nationals. So far 51 players have entered their lists, and it is quite a difference from NOVA

That's a really interesting chart. What's generating it?

7 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

That's a really interesting chart. What's generating it?

Basically straight from the raw data on listjuggler.

I loop through the list and make all nodes (= pilots), assigning them a pilot id and counting how often they were used in the tournament.

Then through again, this time making a link between all ships with the same listId (=same squad). These links are counted, too, and determine the width in the graph.

The plotting itself is automatic, based on the nodes and links. That's why not all rebels are close together, for example.

I think it gives a nice view of what ships were actually played in which combinations, so I keep doing it.

See my Nova-Meta thread for the data of Nova (also on reddit)

16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

See my Nova-Meta thread for the data of Nova (also on reddit)

Link me up?

6 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Link me up?

Here you go:

I guess the large amount of data combined with the lack of clickbaiting conclusions led (in part) to it vanishing so fast.

Edit: if I find the time I want to take a look at all nova squads, and combine it with the other nationals once Canada and Uk put their data on listjuggler. But that's currently the main problem - missing entries

I saw on reddit that polish nationals are in juggler now

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3425

Winner had a rebel operative (generic hawk) and leebo made top 3. I won't be here for the resulting flame war

4 hours ago, CRCL said:

As I've said before, Miranda is an excellently designed Pilot. The problem is somehow the TLT made it through the playtesters. Without the TLT Miranda has to choose to boost her offence or regen for defence. A TLT-Miranda on the other hand can just have her cake and eat it.

The fat b*tch.

Which is why I like this fix: "Once per round when attacking, you may either spend 1 shield to roll 1 additional attack die or roll NO attack dice to recover 1 shield."

Basically makes a TLT a one-shot weapon if you choose to regen. Which is what they were going for when designing Miranda. Very little offense in exchange for regen and alternatively, heavy offense in exchange for damage.

2 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

Which is why I like this fix: "Once per round when attacking, you may either spend 1 shield to roll 1 additional attack die or roll NO attack dice to recover 1 shield."

Basically makes a TLT a one-shot weapon if you choose to regen. Which is what they were going for when designing Miranda. Very little offense in exchange for regen and alternatively, heavy offense in exchange for damage.

That still leaves the problem of TLT, a stupidly efficient vturret that makes Ys more jousting efficient than most jousters

Easier to nerd tlt (one shot with Gunner effect) or it will continue to be a problem in the future

1 hour ago, Moppy said:

I saw on reddit that polish nationals are in juggler now

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3425

Winner had a rebel operative (generic hawk) and leebo made top 3. I won't be here for the resulting flame war

As a HWK fan, I can't be made at that result, heh.

1 hour ago, Moppy said:

Winner had a rebel operative (generic hawk) and leebo made top 3. I won't be here for the resulting flame war

...and a non-Attanni Scyk in the top 8 as well, love it!

57 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...and a non-Attanni Scyk in the top 8 as well, love it!

It's Dydu. He made top16 in French Nationals 3 weeks ago with the same list.