3 hours ago, HammerOfReason said:

It's interesting how the complaints are changing over time.

Just a short while ago, in the Attanni meta, the action economy was all the rage, and the certain doom for X wing.

Now it is turrets and bombs which will surely bring the apocalypse. Never mind the fact that Miranda and Nym have virtually non existent action economy - who cares about action economy now? That's so Wave 9..

It turns out that action economy doesn't matter if your primary damage dealing method is unavoidable bomb damage and your primary defense is high hp/regen. Action economy is less useful when actions aren't significant to your survival or damage output. The wingmen of Nym/Miranda still have a use for action economy however, whether it's lone wolf/rey dash(or Leebo), adv sensors PtL Corran, or K4/Expertise Dengar.

By themselves turrets are okay(ish). They're powerful but expensive and can be countered by cheaper, nimbler ships with autothrusters. The problem is that the latter were all but wiped out by bombs. Currently meta needs 3 things to happen: 1. Sabine needs to be nerfed so that she only adds damage on a die roll. 2. Havoc needs to be changed so that it removes EPT slot. 3. Adv. SLAM nerf needs to go live.

there's nothing nimbler than a turret. all the large ship turrets are far faster than small base ships due to base size and how it exploits the **** out of EU, and they all have incredible dials

the fact that autothrusters even need to exist in the first place is kinda indicative of how it's not a terribly well thought-out mechanic. Even in the case of slightly clunker small base TLTs (specifically), you don't want them to be so incredibly effective against non-thrusters. TLTs are already more efficient than most jousting ships

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

The correct fix? Errata SLAM reference card: "The SLAM maneuver must be the same speed and bearing as the revealed maneuver." Possibly: "The SLAM maneuver must be a 2-speed maneuver." Either would be fine, really.

"Correct" nothing. why would anyone want to pull one over the illustrious gunboat?

ASLAM could be disgusting on gunboats if the ordnance title allows you to fire through weapons disabled tokens. Just imagine, SLAM into ASLAM into PTL firing off fully modified ordnance or reloading and still firing a re-rollable shot. Then, you can clear stress with a green (even a 2-foward) and SLAM into a very flexible array of movement options to do it all over again.

You can do it with the cannon title, but 2 or less point cannons suck with or without full mods

38 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

So, removing a part of a problem is useless because other parts still exist? Making progress to bringing back an archetype shouldn't be done because it can't be totally done in one fell swoop?

Let me help with bolding:

" Even so, I'm still advocating for a nerf to SLAM ... just not for a nerf-to-oblivion of Advanced SLAM."

1 hour ago, Lightrock said:

By themselves turrets are okay(ish). They're powerful but expensive and can be countered by cheaper, nimbler ships with autothrusters. The problem is that the latter were all but wiped out by bombs.

Cheaper, nimbler ships with auto-thrusters were a no-go before the proliferation of bombs. Dengaroo? The Asajj component of the mindlink builds? Defenders, which were resistant to all the things that were crowding Soontir out?

Sure, bring your action-dependent ace to the Asajj party. Sounds like a plan.

Know what the underlying similarity is here? The one thing that binds al these arguments together? That overpowered piece that shows up again and again? Ships.

We should jump the shark and just throw dice at each other to settle this game. Get rid of ships altogether. And upgrades.

46 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Let me help with bolding:

" Even so, I'm still advocating for a nerf to SLAM ... just not for a nerf-to-oblivion of Advanced SLAM."

And I am showing why SLAM bombing isn't a minor problem. I actually believe the leaked nerf isn't a nerf into oblivion, especially with the Gunboat coming with new tricks.

11 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

And I am showing why SLAM bombing isn't a minor problem. I actually believe the leaked nerf isn't a nerf into oblivion, especially with the Gunboat coming with new tricks.

It is for the K-Wing though. Personally, I believe the card's original purpose should be preserved, just make it more challenging for the players.

One possible and not too drastic change of wording might be: "After performing a SLAM action, if your ship and maneuver template did not overlap an obstacle or another ship, you may perform a free action". The card remains useful (and also generic K-Wings, btw), it just demands a more mindful game, as you can no longer fly over a ship then bomb it.

6 minutes ago, Ladrillito said:

It is for the K-Wing though. Personally, I believe the card's original purpose should be preserved, just make it more challenging for the players.

One possible and not too drastic change of wording might be: "After performing a SLAM action, if your ship and maneuver template did not overlap an obstacle or another ship, you may perform a free action". The card remains useful (and also generic K-Wings, btw), it just demands a more mindful game, as you can no longer fly over a ship then bomb it.

Based on my experience, I do not think that is enough. You still have the large range with Clusters so you don't even need to overlap and we have the same defenseless one shot problem.

Also, the leaked FAQ doesn't prevent K-Wings from taking it. It still has value for K-Wings, just not for bombing.

47 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Know what the underlying similarity is here? The one thing that binds al these arguments together? That overpowered piece that shows up again and again? Ships.

We should jump the shark and just throw dice at each other to settle this game. Get rid of ships altogether. And upgrades.

Only if by this you mean literally hurling dice at the other player while making Star Wars noises appropriate to your list flavor. If so, I think you just created X-Wing 2.0

You know what this SLAM discussion all boils down to? Dropping the bombs should have been mid SLAM and on-reveal bombs. Action bombs shouldnt work after SLAM. That way dials matter.

Bombs and LSAM weren't a problem until Sabine and Clusters. They were very good against some ships, and fairly uninspiring against others. Now that the damage output is so high, though, they're good against everything; there's no opportunity cost to putting them in your squad.

1 hour ago, Ladrillito said:

It is for the K-Wing though.

We don't see any Wardens, at all. So what ever the reasons, an Advanced SLAM nerf isn't one of them.

46 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

We don't see any Wardens, at all. So what ever the reasons, an Advanced SLAM nerf isn't one of them.

It's because they were never particularly powerful or prevalent ... and yet somehow simultaneously so powerful and so prevalent that they sent Soontir into a cave, weeping.

16 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

It's because they were never particularly powerful or prevalent ... and yet somehow simultaneously so powerful and so prevalent that they sent Soontir into a cave, weeping.

Prevalent and powerful enough. The threat of something is just as potient as the thing itself.

5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Prevalent and powerful enough. The threat of something is just as potient as the thing itself.

That's what I keep telling my co-workers about my anti-rhinoceros music (it's Carly Rae Jepsen). Sure, they hate it, but they'd hate all the rhinoceroses more, I bet.

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

That's what I keep telling my co-workers about my anti-rhinoceros music (it's Carly Rae Jepsen). Sure, they hate it, but they'd hate all the rhinoceroses more, I bet.

You jest, but I saw the same thing happen during the height of the Deadeye torpboats. My area actually didn't see that much of them, but the threat of one appearing was a major fear of Rebel players, so they adjusted their lists as best as they could. And when one did show up, those that didn't had to hope like the blazes that they weren't match up with it, which is not a good position to be in at a tournament.

If one list can pretty much auto kill yours, are you willing to take it anyway? And before you reply with your usual speech of how Aces shouldn't be without predators, realize that there is a difference between bad match ups and auto kills.

Just now, SabineKey said:

If one list can pretty much auto kill yours, are you willing to take it anyway? And before you reply with your usual speech of how Aces shouldn't be without predators, realize that there is a difference between bad match ups and auto kills.

I'm sorry, you seem to be mistaking me for someone else. (I mean, aces shouldn't be without predators, but other than me writing it just now, I'll be genuinely shocked if you can find another instance of me saying that.)

So, let me say it again:

I do not have a problem making bombing runs less effective . I've presented two ways in which SLAM can be modified to do that, and have a significant effect on the reach of AdvS bomb-dropping. But nerfing AdvS -- which was used specifically to sell K-wings as bombers -- into oblivion is horrible. (Of course, it's also simple, which is why FFG chose it.) Nerfing AdvS will do almost nothing to curtail the actual, in-play bomb bogeymen, Nym and Miranda, and will affect only the rarely played "other K-wings."

Which is just #$%@ brilliant. Good job, FFG. Good job, people saying it's a good change.

30 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I'm sorry, you seem to be mistaking me for someone else. (I mean, aces shouldn't be without predators, but other than me writing it just now, I'll be genuinely shocked if you can find another instance of me saying that.)

So, let me say it again:

I do not have a problem making bombing runs less effective . I've presented two ways in which SLAM can be modified to do that, and have a significant effect on the reach of AdvS bomb-dropping. But nerfing AdvS -- which was used specifically to sell K-wings as bombers -- into oblivion is horrible. (Of course, it's also simple, which is why FFG chose it.) Nerfing AdvS will do almost nothing to curtail the actual, in-play bomb bogeymen, Nym and Miranda, and will affect only the rarely played "other K-wings."

Which is just #$%@ brilliant. Good job, FFG. Good job, people saying it's a good change.

I perhaps have you mistaken for someone else, but I seem to recall you asking what are Ace predators if bombs aren't around. If I missatributed a quote, then I apologize.

My point is that your stance seems to be that the K-Wings aren't that big a problem and didn't do anything wrong, to which I heartily disagree. Just because they are not in vogue now doesn't mean they aren't a problem waiting for later. You might not think they are that big a threat to Aces like Fel, but players I actually know and trust say otherwise. And that's on top of what I have seen for myself. FFG releases something to handle Nym and Miranda, great. But that doesn't mean the SLAM bombing problem won't come back.

Also, the logic behind the nerfs you are suggesting could be applied to the pervious ones lieved at the JumpMaster. FFG already has a repeat failure story on their hands. And while your suggestions might work, if they don't, it's gonna be one more massive headache for FFG. And that's also on top of the debacle the last big FAQ left us in.

3 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Also, the logic behind the nerfs you are suggesting could be applied to the pervious ones lieved at the JumpMaster. FFG already has a repeat failure story on their hands. And while your suggestions might work, if they don't, it's gonna be one more massive headache for FFG. And that's also on top of the debacle the last big FAQ left us in.

The repeated (failed) nerfs of the JumpMaster have been in response to actual , on-going problems. (And I would like to point out that I was pretty much among the first here to say that FFG's idiotic nerf-attempts would not be enough.) The nerf of Advanced SLAM is, at best, an extreme response to a theoretical problem. (I disagree that it's more than a minor problem, but even if you think it is, the fact is that the problem is purely theoretical.) Again, it will have literally no effect on the current meta bogeymen. Given this, I have no idea why it has champions, much less such quixotic devoted windmill-tilting champions.

That's not the same thing as saying I have no idea why FFG is doing it, BTW. FFG is doing it because they think it will have an effect on Miranda. Because FFG is not very smart.

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

The repeated (failed) nerfs of the JumpMaster have been in response to actual , on-going problems. (And I would like to point out that I was pretty much among the first here to say that FFG's idiotic nerf-attempts would not be enough.) The nerf of Advanced SLAM is, at best, an extreme response to a theoretical problem. (I disagree that it's more than a minor problem, but even if you think it is, the fact is that the problem is purely theoretical.) Again, it will have literally no effect on the current meta bogeymen. Given this, I have no idea why it has champions, much less such quixotic devoted windmill-tilting champions.

That's not the same thing as saying I have no idea why FFG is doing it, BTW. FFG is doing it because they think it will have an effect on Miranda. Because FFG is not very smart.

So people who have talked about how their Aces lists were destroyed by SLAMing bombers are delusional? My friends who have experimented on both sides of this equation of Aces versus SLAMing bombs are wrong because you say so? Just because you aren't seeing it now doesn't mean it didn't happen. And it also doesn't mean it can't happen again under the right circumstances. The problem with Advanced SLAM is actual and ongoing, though currently dormant. If you can prove to me that Aces have no trouble with three Wardens, i'll change my tune. But i've issued this challenge before to others and not gotten evidence back.

5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

So people who have talked about how their Aces lists were destroyed by SLAMing bombers are delusional?

How do you keep failing to see where I offer a way to weaken bombing without -- as you seem to want -- totally eliminating it?

Have you seen me do that? Multiple times?

If "yes," then what's the point of the question I quoted? Do you know what a "strawman" is?

(BTW, "ongoing" and "dormant" are literally antonyms.)

43 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

How do you keep failing to see where I offer a way to weaken bombing without -- as you seem to want -- totally eliminating it?

Have you seen me do that? Multiple times?

If "yes," then what's the point of the question I quoted? Do you know what a "strawman" is?

(BTW, "ongoing" and "dormant" are literally antonyms.)

I'm not failing to see what you are offering. I am confounded by your failing to see the problem for the size it is. You keep saying it's not a big problem, even going so far as mocking people who do see it as a big problem ( your rhino post, your Soontir weeping post).

I know what a strawman is. That doesn't change that you are ignoring the testimony of others.

to me, it boils down to this. Advanced Slam has proven to be an element that suppresses one of this game's archetypes, an archetype some hold in high regard. If I have to choose between keeping things the way they are and nerfing Advanced SLAM like the leak suggested, then it's getting nerfed. Are there more elegant ways to do it? Probably. But until conclusively proven to work, I'll take the surefire approach.

As for ongoing and dormant, one can describe the lack of triple jump lists in more recent top cuts as a bit of a dormancy period for the archetype. Then, one won the top slot at the U.K. Nationals, showing that them as a problem is still ongoing. Just because you haven't seen an enemy personally in a while doesn't mean they can't come back or that they are not an ongoing threat.

6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

to me, it boils down to this. Advanced Slam has proven to be an element that suppresses one of this game's archetypes, an archetype some hold in high regard. If I have to choose between keeping things the way they are and nerfing Advanced SLAM like the leak suggested, then it's getting nerfed. Are there more elegant ways to do it? Probably. But until conclusively proven to work, I'll take the surefire approach.

So, since it's a "surefire approach," when AdvSLAM is nerfed, you must believe that aces will enjoy a resurgence.

How much would you care to wager?

Nothing. You will care to wager nothing. Because nerfing AdvSLAM will have zero effect on the meta. I know this, you know this, everybody reading this knows this. I would say that it will have one effect on the meta -- "it will kill K-wings" -- except that's not true. It won't have any effect on K-wings, because Wardens are not popular or powerful enough to see play now -- net effect: zero -- and the change will barely even be a blip for the actual semi-problematic K-wing, Miranda.

This nerf-to-oblivion of AdvSLAM will do literally nothing, but you are completely gung-ho in favor of it. It's very, very strange. I have to assume it's some bizarre placebo effect in which you're heavily invested.

4 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

So, since it's a "surefire approach," when AdvSLAM is nerfed, you must believe that aces will enjoy a resurgence.

How much would you care to wager?

Nothing. You will care to wager nothing. Because nerfing AdvSLAM will have zero effect on the meta. I know this, you know this, everybody reading this knows this. I would say that it will have one effect on the meta -- "it will kill K-wings" -- except that's not true. It won't have any effect on K-wings, because Wardens are not popular or powerful enough to see play now -- net effect: zero -- and the change will barely even be a blip for the actual semi-problematic K-wing, Miranda.

This nerf-to-oblivion of AdvSLAM will do literally nothing, but you are completely gung-ho in favor of it. It's very, very strange. I have to assume it's some bizarre placebo effect in which you're heavily invested.

I never said the Advanced SLAM nerf was going to bring back aces all by itself. There are plenty of things that are problematic for Aces. But this one is identified, so can be dealt with now so it doesn't come up again. Its about making progress, not ignoring a problem because other things hurt more.