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At which precise moment during set up do you resolve Setup abilities on hero cards (Eowyn, Denethor, Thurindir)?

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The Setup abilities on heroes should be triggered when they enter play during step 2 “Place Heroes and Set Initial Threat Levels."

Cheers,
Caleb

I'm bumping this because it actually countermands what a couple of people thought in an earlier thread…

…and it also leads to a curious interaction I hadn't realized until now. From the core rules, step 5 of Setup (which happens after step 2, duh):

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5. Draw Setup Hand

Each player draws 6 cards from the top of his player deck. If a player does not wish to keep his starting hand, he may take a single mulligan, by shuffling these 6 cards back into his deck and drawing 6 new cards. A player who takes a mulligan must keep his second hand.

This means that the side quest you tutored with Thurindir is kept safe and sound during a mulligan. Also, your starting hand after the first resource phase draw will be 8 cards, not the customary 7.

Without any other indication the side quest should be shuffled back with the rest of the hand if you mulligan.

Except that it does not make any sense since we are not even in the setup part when this occur so this ruling should either be broken or corrected by dirty ruling, like putting thurindir side quest apart.

Can we please get proper rules?

1 hour ago, Rouxxor said:

Without any other indication the side quest should be shuffled back with the rest of the hand if you mulligan.

The mulligan rules say to shuffle "these 6 cards", referring to the 6 that were drawn in the Draw Setup Hand step. Other cards that may have made their way to your hand in previous steps are not referred to at all, so they stay where they are.

1 hour ago, NathanH said:

The mulligan rules say to shuffle "these 6 cards", referring to the 6 that were drawn in the Draw Setup Hand step. Other cards that may have made their way to your hand in previous steps are not referred to at all, so they stay where they are.

This was how I interpreted it. It also means that the choice of side quest is made before you know any cards in your starting hand. I can see why this could do with some clarification though, since I'm not sure that the game's initial framework for setting up necessarily considered the presence of cards that are chosen before the Draw Setup Hand step. Maybe submit a rules query about this?

In many ways, I think it would work better if Thurindir's card had to be chosen before the setup hand, but was immune to the mulligan: it seems to be the intent of his ability, even if it's not totally clear from the rules.

1 hour ago, monkeyrama said:

This was how I interpreted it. It also means that the choice of side quest is made before you know any cards in your starting hand. I can see why this could do with some clarification though, since I'm not sure that the game's initial framework for setting up necessarily considered the presence of cards that are chosen before the Draw Setup Hand step. Maybe submit a rules query about this?

For the record, I think the letter-perfect reading is quite clear—the rules absolutely define what a "mulligan" is—and I am pleased by the consequences with respect to Thurindir, so I will not be the one to potentially disturb it with an official query.

2 hours ago, sappidus said:

For the record, I think the letter-perfect reading is quite clear—the rules absolutely define what a "mulligan" is—and I am pleased by the consequences with respect to Thurindir, so I will not be the one to potentially disturb it with an official query.

Heh, fair enough. That is how I read it as well. It would be nice to have some other heroes with setup abilities.

I just came across this relevant snippet from the Black Riders rulebook when I was looking through it today:

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New Setup Instructions

Setup instructions appear on some player cards and encounter cards in The Lord of the Rings: The Black Riders. If a player card with Setup instructions is in a player’s deck at the beginning of a game, that player searches his deck for that card and follows its instructions before drawing his first hand. Similarly, if an encounter card with Setup is in the encounter deck at the beginning of a game, search the encounter deck for that card and follow its instructions before resolving the Setup instructions on the quest.

On 9/15/2017 at 7:15 PM, Authraw said:

I just came across this relevant snippet from the Black Riders rulebook when I was looking through it today:

Actually, the reason I posted my inquiry and the resulting answer is because the Black Riders rule book refers to player cards that start in a player's deck and since heroes do not start there, there was a gap in the rules. Essentially, there would be no way to trigger any hero Setup abilities until we received clarification from the designers (which clearly wasn't intended).

On 9/15/2017 at 6:09 AM, monkeyrama said:

This  was how I interpreted it. It also means that the choice of side quest is made before you know any cards in your starting hand. I can see why this could do with some clarification though, since I'm not sure that the game's initial framework for setting up necessarily considered the presence of cards that are chosen before the Draw Setup Hand step. Maybe submit a rules query about this?  

Just to mention for the record that this was confirmed in official rulings both pre- and post-RR: Thurindir pulls a side quest before you draw a starting hand, and it remains there through a mulligan.

Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere, but this post is closest to my question.

If you have a hero lineup that contains Tactics Eowyn and Lore Aragorn, does Eowyn's setup ability trigger before or after the "Set initial threat level" during step 2? Together, their threat is 21 (9+12), but Eowyn's setup allows for a 3 threat reduction (21-3=18). After using her ability and other things, it becomes time to use Lore Aragorn's Refresh Action. Does threat go back to 21 or 18?

35 minutes ago, bdavis969 said:

If you have a hero lineup that contains Tactics Eowyn and Lore Aragorn, does Eowyn's setup ability trigger before or after the "Set initial threat level" during step 2? Together, their threat is 21 (9+12), but Eowyn's setup allows for a 3 threat reduction (21-3=18). After using her ability and other things, it becomes time to use Lore Aragorn's Refresh Action. Does threat go back to 21 or 18?

The initial threat is set before using TaEowyn's ability so her reduction is not taken into account by LoAragorn ability.

But let's say that right now there is lot of uncertainty about triggering Setup abilities, since the Contract introduction. We are trying to get some clarity from Caleb, but your case should not be influenced.

1 hour ago, Alonewolf87 said:

But let's say that right now there is lot of uncertainty about triggering Setup abilities, since the Contract introduction. We are trying to get some clarity from Caleb, but your case should not be influenced.

I will agree to that statement...I had asked another question before in regards to using Messenger of the King and seeing if I could give Spirit Ally Bilbo turned Hero The One Ring and there was dispute of what happens first I believe...I personally want to play it as such that I can do it

It would be nice to define a list of what happens:

As you suggest, do we 1) place heroes, 2) set initial threat, 3) do hero setups...In this case initial threat would be 21, but threat before play begins is 18...technically no different than playing an Elrond's Council during the Action window of the Resource phase (if you had a Spirit hero and Noldor hero in play).

Or do we look at it as 1) place heroes, if any hero has setup then it acts as interrupt, 2) set threat...In this case initial threat would be 18.

I agree that initial threat is set before TaEowyn's ability, and so if initial threat level (step 2) and starting threat level are synonyms, Aragorn would ignore Eowyn's effect. That's always been my understanding

OTOH, MotK specifically alters "starting threat level", so obviously the same thing as Loragorn resets to. But it could alter it *after* TaEowyn's ability is applied. Is there provision for raising your *current* threat level simply because "starting threat level" is raised, in the case where the two are not the same?

2 minutes ago, bdavis969 said:

As you suggest, do we 1) place heroes, 2) set initial threat, 3) do hero setups...In this case initial threat would be 21, but threat before play begins is 18...technically no different than playing an Elrond's Council during the Action window of the Resource phase (if you had a Spirit hero and Noldor hero in play).

Well right now (by Caleb's debated last rulings) you place heroes and set initial threat in Step 2 of the Setup and resolve Setup abilities (of heroes and other player cards) in Step 7 after doing the quest Setup.