On ‎02‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 0:36 PM, cleardave said:

Let's close that door on the RLM tangent, because its sounds like we're misunderstanding each others tone even though we're probably on the same page.

I guess you're right - I was just pulling your leg on this one a bit. PAX!

2 hours ago, burek277 said:

What if the people who want a competitive game were the original target audience and people who want to have a thematic game experience ruined it for them?

So they should play chess. It's competitive and the pieces come already painted :). Although I hear that the Knight meta is brutal right now.

3 hours ago, burek277 said:

What if the people who want a competitive game were the original target audience and people who want to have a thematic game experience ruined it for them?

Do I really have to point out that this game was released, and continues to support, two modes of play that are fun for both casuals and competitive players?

If you can get a regular meetup of players going and you don't want to get curb stomped with meta lists, there's this whole campaign mode waiting to be used. The Twin Shadows and Bespin Gambit are great 4 mission deals that you could probably do over two sessions. It really only takes 2 people with one player controlling 4 Rebels, and it's great fun.

For a head to head game like Skirmish where it's more about kill or be killed, the casuals and competitives need to learn to tolerate each other. As long as everyone's being respectful, you should just enjoy getting those games in. A hardcore tournament player is just as frustrated that their local meta is casuals, as it doesn't let them really test their mettle for a National or Worlds, so they never get to level up their game against players there "just for fun".

Coexist, people. Treat everyone with respect and a community will sort itself out.

1 hour ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

So they should play chess. It's competitive and the pieces come already painted :). Although I hear that the Knight meta is brutal right now.

Until they provide a fix for the Bishop, I'm out. The Queen is too OP.

Also chess bores me to tears. It's been figured out, so if you're playing it "casually", you'll get wrecked by someone who read the play book. It's so algorithmic it hurts. The theme is also pretty abstract, so there's little excitement to be had in that regard too.

At least in IA you don't just take your opponent's pieces off the board as a given. You gotta roll. You gotta take risks on Accuracy sometimes. You need to save that Element of Surprise for when you can time it just right with a damage boost to punch 10dmg through on Jedi Luke, but only after you bait out their Negation with your Take or other annoying 0-cost card.

5 hours ago, cleardave said:

Until they provide a fix for the Bishop, I'm out. The Queen is too OP.

Also chess bores me to tears. It's been figured out, so if you're playing it "casually", you'll get wrecked by someone who read the play book. It's so algorithmic it hurts. The theme is also pretty abstract, so there's little excitement to be had in that regard too.

At least in IA you don't just take your opponent's pieces off the board as a given. You gotta roll. You gotta take risks on Accuracy sometimes. You need to save that Element of Surprise for when you can time it just right with a damage boost to punch 10dmg through on Jedi Luke, but only after you bait out their Negation with your Take or other annoying 0-cost card.

Check, mate. (see what I did there?)

3 hours ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

Check, mate. (see what I did there?)

I do.

...but I wish I didn't.

from what i've seen from the demo, this game is completly different from the other.. so i dont know why skirmish wouldnt be a thing.. anyway it's very likely this game to die after legion release though

It doesn't make sense that people keep discussing Legion here when there is a perfectly good Legion forum on this site.

I'm hoping this thread dies long before IA.

42 minutes ago, Fightwookies said:

It doesn't make sense that people keep discussing Legion here when there is a perfectly good Legion forum on this site.

I'm hoping this thread dies long before IA.

I mean, yours was the first post in about 2 days...

I get it, though. Legion is a similar game to IA, so this is where IA people can talk about how it relates specifically to our interests. After all, the Legion people would be kinda of annoyed if we did that in their area.

Plus, speaking of the Legion people... I mean, they mostly seem cool, but there's a few pretty big trolls or insecure people over there. I personally just enjoy the IA community a lot more. I think the focus on competitive gaming, sort of like X-Wing, has made their community just a little more hot-headed than this one here.

2 minutes ago, subtrendy2 said:

Plus, speaking of the Legion people... I mean, they mostly seem cool, but there's a few pretty big trolls or insecure people over there. I personally just enjoy the IA community a lot more. I think the focus on competitive gaming, sort of like X-Wing, has made their community just a little more hot-headed than this one here.

Is it bad that now I'm tempted to go over there to read all the internet "drama"?

Edit: I suppose that probably speaks more to how bored I am waiting for an article.

6 minutes ago, ManateeX said:

Is it bad that now I'm tempted to go over there to read all the internet "drama"?

Edit: I suppose that probably speaks more to how bored I am waiting for an article.

I mean, I don't know how bad it is anymore, but that's just because I got tired of reading five "Stop whining about IA" threads for every single "Will this effect IA?" one. It just became unproductive, and kind of mean spirited.

And like I said, if you think the IA comparisons are common here, they were definitely worse over there, so I get their frustration. But when some users actually seem kinda gleeful about the possibility of IA dying from Legion, it definitely makes me lose interest in the community.

10 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

Plus, speaking of the Legion people... I mean, they mostly seem cool, but there's a few pretty big trolls or insecure people over there. I personally just enjoy the IA community a lot more. I think the focus on competitive gaming, sort of like X-Wing, has made their community just a little more hot-headed than this one here.

There's not going to be much to Legion other that a 1v1 head to head game, not unlike our Skirmish, so you should see a concentration of more competitive minded people on there, the same as X-Wing.

It leads to more debate over etiquette on what type of lists to bring to regular meetups at game stores. I still find it bizarre in small IA circles that more "casual" identifying players don't just whip open those short campaigns when 3-5 people congregate for these alleged small skirmish groups. There's plenty of lessons to be learned on how to play Skirmish better in those mechanics, but its a more laid back kind of game that isn't about offending people with your Junk Droid list?

I quite enjoy being able to roll out a mat and get playing super quick. If you have all the maps in the rotation handy, playing "for real" is going to be easy to knock off in an evening. For the casual minded, there's enough data out there to provide you with the means to print your own Skirmish maps that aren't in the rotation currently.

The simplicity of the board setup makes it easier for me to get into it, and the grid is like a breath of fresh air coming from X-Wing where people would find all sorts of clever ways to nudge the board or ships to screw up the game state just enough. Were you really in arc or on that obstacle? I guess we'll never "really" know.

At least Legion has the movement tool going for it, so it won't be like a 40k scenario where people are trying to gain an inch on their tape measure.

With the grid and a laser line, nobody will ever debate line of sight. The conversation goes something like this;

Player 1: Can you check to see if this square can see this square?

Player 2: *uses laser line to check corners* Nope

or

Player 2: *uses laser line to check corners* It sure can

Player 1 (in either case):: Thank you

I can't recall ever seeing someone call a judge over that, barring a new player getting burned on those 1-way shooting corners that pop up on some maps, when used at the right angle, but that's just a rookie mistake.

I often hear people complaining that IA doesn't have cover in the sense of a traditional wargame where you'd get a boost to defence somehow. I enjoy the pace of needing to keep moving and doing things rather than hunkering down behind some crates and exchanging dice rolls from down the hall while nobody moves.

After the points denial skirmish meta of old was erased, we're less focused on hiding that last trooper to deny 9pts and instead getting stuck in. Having said that, if your high cost figure (Bantha/Rancor/Vader/etc) is about to die, it might be worth your time to double move them somewhere safe and ride out the match that way.

In most games though, this isn't going to come up, as that high-cost figure can still do something gross before the bitter end.

One thing about Legion that is still a curiosity to me; we've seen the Core Set, and everyone's salivating over that (or dismissing it out of hand) but what's with FFG not showing off some tasty model that's coming down the line?

We knew there was going to be a Falcon in Wave 2 at GenCon 2012 when they were showing off the X-Wing starter, which is why I really got excited in the first place. Granted, I'm off the camp that Legion doesn't interest me terribly much as a "Star Wars" ground battles game because everything in that Core, plus an AT-ST would be all I'd really expect or want, but also to have it built around some interesting narrative campaign/scenarios.

As it is, I suspect that it'll be filled in very quickly with everything and the kitchen sink and land somewhere between "larger battles than IA" but "smaller battles than 'ground war' would lead you to believe"

Well, that and the need to buy some cards on the after-market to fill out your roster or buy some not inexpensive troop packs when the baller upgrade you need is only found in one off-faction box.

7 hours ago, cleardave said:

As it is, I suspect that it'll be filled in very quickly with everything and the kitchen sink and land somewhere between "larger battles than IA" but "smaller battles than 'ground war' would lead you to believe"

Yeah, in my opinion, that's really why a lot of IA players feel threatened by this. Legion could've gone with smaller minis and allowed for AT-ATs and such (and maybe still will, but it doesn't seem like a given right now). They could've even gone with a Clone Wars setting, which probably would've made more sense overall.

Regardless of what they did and what value someone might see in it, the current model feels like when you go back to the parking lot and someone has parked just a little too close to your car on the driver side- you can still get into your car, but it's a tight squeeze, and they did have space on the other side of the parking spot that they could've filled if they'd been considerate. Now you have to worry about the slight possibility of dinging your car or theirs, when this could've all been avoided if they weren't so crappy at parking.

What I mean is, Legion just feels a little too similar to IA (even though I know this'll bring down a chorus of "they're different games") when, with any vision at all, it could've been something much different-and may have been better off for both games for it.

44 minutes ago, subtrendy2 said:

Yeah, in my opinion, that's really why a lot of IA players feel threatened by this. Legion could've gone with smaller minis and allowed for AT-ATs and such (and maybe still will, but it doesn't seem like a given right now). They could've even gone with a Clone Wars setting, which probably would've made more sense overall.

Regardless of what they did and what value someone might see in it, the current model feels like when you go back to the parking lot and someone has parked just a little too close to your car on the driver side- you can still get into your car, but it's a tight squeeze, and they did have space on the other side of the parking spot that they could've filled if they'd been considerate. Now you have to worry about the slight possibility of dinging your car or theirs, when this could've all been avoided if they weren't so crappy at parking.

What I mean is, Legion just feels a little too similar to IA (even though I know this'll bring down a chorus of "they're different games") when, with any vision at all, it could've been something much different-and may have been better off for both games for it.

But they're different games!!!

Seriously though, you're not wrong. I think they went with what they did because they think that the original trilogy is more popular and will sell better, and they may be right, but on a superficial level there is a definitely a level of "we've been here before".

I've said before that I'm not interested in Legion because I'm not big on that style of game, and that remains the case, but I'm going to pretend for a moment that I'm investing in both games. When the Boba Fett villain pack for IA came out I was really excited to get such a cool mini, enough so that after watching that edition of Sorastro's series I made the jump into trying painting for the first time. When they release it for Legion, though, I suspect that a lot of that level of excitement would be missing since I've already got something very similar.

They really do feel like very different games, very different cultures from what I can see. All the people that are really excited about Legion seem to be big time hobbyists, who are very handy with tools and mechanical engineering and getting into their workshops to build massive play tables, terrain, design obstacles, maybe 3D print terrain and stuff. I just look at that and feel like its another universe from Imperial Assault - where my biggest hurdle to setting up the game is finding my tiles.

I am not a handy person at all, am not into crafts or tools or whatever (I'm an engineer - but its software ). So the thought of putting all this effort in (and then I guess taking all of this gear I built to a store?) seems beyond crazy to me. For those people that are in to it - great, I'm happy for you, and hope you build a full scale Endor and enjoy the heck out of Legion. For me who thinks of a screwdriver as a mixed drink, I'm good - I'll be over here with my simple tiles.

4 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

Yeah, in my opinion, that's really why a lot of IA players feel threatened by this. Legion could've gone with smaller minis and allowed for AT-ATs and such (and maybe still will, but it doesn't seem like a given right now). They could've even gone with a Clone Wars setting, which probably would've made more sense overall.

I doubt they'll change the scale of the minis at this point, given the planned release timeline. I'd say they're committed to this scale, and THAT would be a given.

So with that given, the only way those AT-ST's and AT-AT's come in to play would be with a sliding scale, which I could see being more bothersome in that kind of game than the sliding scale AT-ST in IA, which is basically shaved down to fit that 2x3 rectangle and be playable. It's the only way to really make it work that way, and that's fine.

For Legion, I would have expected the size of the typical soldier to go down, not up, to accommodate those big vehicles we recognize (and thus actually care about) from Empire, but they didn't so it'll be weird. It'll weird from the very beginning.

I"m with you on the Clone Wars thing; better theme-fit for this kind of game, and I would have probably enjoyed it's coming, despite not being a fan of that era, I can at least respect the mechanics mixed with that theme, as that period of Star Wars is all about the deluge of Expanded Universe flotsam and jetsam stirring around in the waters.

They went with classic Star Wars because its probably indeed what most people visualize, but it's also the pretty bereft of options until you dig into that EU that has less mass appeal, and the fact that they haven't expanded on that initial offering, in terms of units to expect, even at GenCon, should raise some eyebrows.

2 hours ago, totalnoob said:

They really do feel like very different games, very different cultures from what I can see. All the people that are really excited about Legion seem to be big time hobbyists...

It'll also attract the super-competitive types, as that's all Legion will bring to the table. It will not be a wonderful value-added series of SKU's that work both as a great 1v1 tournament game you can wrap in an hour and a nice beer and pretzels style dice chucker RPG-Lite for you to socialize with some friends over.

It'll be a 2-hour match at least that will be harder to fit in smaller stores, and all the wonderful terrain ideas everyone will have will likely amount to a hill of beans because it will need to be reduced to a consistent and equitable set of terrain tiles to ensure everyones' matches play with the same level of fairness.

Of course people will build the terrain, but imagine being in the Swiss pools at Worlds, and having people showing up with their own large terrain pieces and lugging all that crap around. It'll be a huge pain. I could see them doing 3D terrain for a stream table, the Finals, that kind of thing, but for everyone else, it'll be terrain tiles for sure.

It'll have to be.

And that seems like it takes a bit of the edge of the true hobby aspect of it.

All the complaining about wishing you could port your IA minis in is of course so much naiveté, as if they would ever create the games in the same scale to inhibit the sales of a game they need to launch hard and hit the ground running. I empathize, I really do, but it's kind of funny to hear about it, as if there was ever a chance the scales would be compatible. Can we at least all agree to have a laugh that that fleeting hope?

2 hours ago, cleardave said:

it will need to be reduced to a consistent and equitable set of terrain tiles to ensure everyones' matches play with the same level of fairness.

The setup cards have been designed so that the terrain can be anything. The game comes with 3 types of setup cards, dealt in three rows. Starting with the player with initiative, the players eliminate certain number of cards (4?) and the remaining leftmost 3 cards make up the deployment rules, objective, and environment for the mission.

AFAIK: The venue is expected to provide the terrains.

33 minutes ago, cleardave said:

It'll be a 2-hour match at least that will be harder to fit in smaller stores, and all the wonderful terrain ideas everyone will have will likely amount to a hill of beans because it will need to be reduced to a consistent and equitable set of terrain tiles to ensure everyones' matches play with the same level of fairness.

Of course people will build the terrain, but imagine being in the Swiss pools at Worlds, and having people showing up with their own large terrain pieces and lugging all that crap around. It'll be a huge pain. I could see them doing 3D terrain for a stream table, the Finals, that kind of thing, but for everyone else, it'll be terrain tiles for sure.

It'll have to be.

And that seems like it takes a bit of the edge of the true hobby aspect of it.

Warhammer, 40k, LOTR tournaments all use terrain, GW make their own scenery these days, but back when I was collecting regularly, terrain was still virtually all hand made. Tournaments would be run with 2-3 different terrain set ups, all with similar numbers of scatter terrain, and each set would have similar types of terrain on them. Most FLGS big enough to run wargaming tournaments should have enough scenery to run a decent Legion event without people bringing their own with them.

Tabletop terrain can be absolutely stunning. For real, miniatures aside, it's an art form all on its own.

But what I love about IA is that it allows for different venues to be created relatively easily. Desert mission? 10 minute set up, tops (assuming your tiles are well organized). Switching to a forest mission? Easy. Mission with the "I am your father" platform on Bespin? Couple minute set up. Finish off with something in the Jedi council chambers? Better wait for HotE, but once we have it it'll be a quick fix again.

And sure, the tiles aren't all that impressive, but I often find myself immersed well enough in IA missions even with flat terrain. I'm sure it all comes down to a matter of taste, but I can assure you that very few Legion fans could visit that many locations in a day or two.

17 hours ago, a1bert said:

The setup cards have been designed so that the terrain can be anything. The game comes with 3 types of setup cards, dealt in three rows. Starting with the player with initiative, the players eliminate certain number of cards (4?) and the remaining leftmost 3 cards make up the deployment rules, objective, and environment for the mission.

AFAIK: The venue is expected to provide the terrains.

What I like about how RuneWars handles terrain is that there is a standard to it, so you could go ahead and make your own 3D terrain off that template, as many have.

I believe they're introducing new templates with the Elves, and presumably future packs will introduce new elements as well.

I feel like this is the way to go, as everything can be balanced around it. You can ultimately make it look like whatever you want, as long as it fits that template, otherwise they would have to reduce it to terrain elements that fit within a certain range of size dimensions and allow for "anything goes" to be the rule of the day with regards to what people bring, or not bring.

For a store that regularly hosts Warhammer 40k events, I'm sure they'll have plenty of terrain to use for the cause, but I can see this being problematic for a smaller store or one that hasn't supported this type of game themselves before.

Again, with RuneWars, you're not worried about anyone not having the terrain on-hand, as everyone would just be required to bring the templates anyways, which is also less cumbersome.

I'm looking at this strictly from an Organized Play perspective of course, as casual play is all about "anything goes". You'd use whatever objects you have on hand to simulate terrain if you didn't build/own your own, and that's fine too. I think the new 40k 8th edition starters come with a fold out mat and a little cardboard building. It's not the most impressive thing ever, but it's functional and is a good start/better than nothing.

17 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

But what I love about IA is that it allows for different venues to be created relatively easily. Desert mission? 10 minute set up, tops (assuming your tiles are well organized). Switching to a forest mission? Easy. Mission with the "I am your father" platform on Bespin? Couple minute set up. Finish off with something in the Jedi council chambers? Better wait for HotE, but once we have it it'll be a quick fix again.

And sure, the tiles aren't all that impressive, but I often find myself immersed well enough in IA missions even with flat terrain. I'm sure it all comes down to a matter of taste, but I can assure you that very few Legion fans could visit that many locations in a day or two.

This is of course the best thing about IA as a boardgame. You travel all over the galaxy and have these different settings. Assuming you have an imagination, I think it works quite well.

The Skirmish setup gets even quick though if you're using mats, official or otherwise. Just roll it out and go. I've been picking them up as they've been released, and I think there's almost 10 of them now? You've got a snow field, some forests, some Imperial facility action, a few other "scum" type structures, deserts, it's pretty diverse, and that's just talking strictly about the "official" mats that have rotated in and out over time.

Imperial Assault has significant advantages for many of us. I can store all of my "terrain" for it in the box. I can easily fit everything I need for a game on my ordinary kitchen table. (Here, even Armada is a problem- there isn't a single 6 ft table in my house, and I don't want to have to buy new furniture just to play a game...)

A game of IA can be fit in while still meeting obligations of work, family and so forth. My experience with the tabletop minis games, a la Warhammer, is that they can easily eat most of your day, leaving little time for other interests.

Imperial Assault is a fun game which also happens to foster a hobbyist side, especially in painting the miniatures. Legion may be more of a lifestyle choice, much like Warhammer. Garages or closets full of nothing but miniature buildings, hills and clusters of trees, massive tables built for gaming, and entire days lost to setting up and playing out battles? Despite the superficial resemblance of similarly sized miniatures based on the original Star Wars trilogy, there's clearly very different markets for the two games. Many who love IA would never invest themselves as heavily as Legion will demand, while many in Legion's audience find our tiny IA skirmish battles laughable, to say nothing of our campaigns. (Four heroes taking on the bottomless forces of the Empire? Who would even think to put something so crazy into the world of Star Wars?)

Hey, look!

Kayn Somos and stormtroopers all in one pack!

Alliance rangers!

General Weiss expansion!

And more!

...

T-47 is such an odd choice for a ground combat game. AT-RT is really nice (really wish it replaced the AT-DP in IA).

Wrong game.

(Or at least getting off topic of this topic.)