With the new harpoon being revealed we now have a collection of missiles that require a TL to use but not spend. This makes these attractive by enabling extra mods to get a better chance of max damage. But do some of the older ones need a tweek to make them a viable choice?

harpoon 4 points, may cause extra damage to target ship and others at R1 if you can get a crit through on another attack, or if target ship dies.

cruise missile 3 points, potential of 5 dice.

homing missile 5 points, the defender can't spend evade tokens. Not sure why you would use this with a choice of the other two above. Would this be good at 4 points instead of 5, I would prefer the ability of doing speed 1-2 and still having a good attack over the cruise for 1 point extra.

ion pulse 3 points. 1 damage and 2 ion tokens. Only 3 dice here seems to be the issue, it's a good control missile but at best 1 damage, it seems like 2-3 hits will not get through on quite a few targets. Would a fourth die make it more appealing or maybe a drop to 2 points?

adv homing missile 3 points. If hits deal 1 face up damage. It goes through shields but is fixed at R2, only has 3 dice. Getting a face up damage is good but the range restriction seems to be the big killer here, why not R2-3?

Now we have missiles that require you to spend the TL:

cluster, concussion and assault.

cluster 4 points, fire twice, R1-2, 3 dice.

concussion 4 points, turn a blank to a hit, R2-3, 4 dice.

assault 5 points, 4 dice R2-3, if hits all at R1 of target suffer 1 damage.

now all 3 of these in my view would be pretty spot on in line with the 2 new missiles if they did not have to spend the TL to use.

Any thoughts?

I've never understood having to "spend" a Target Lock to fire ordnance or modify results. Target Lock would be a great action if you didn't need to spend it for either effect. Once you acquire a lock on a target, you should be able to maintain it until it's destroyed or the target manages to shake it off. For example you could spend an Evade token to remove a target lock, or if you don't have Evade, use your action to roll one defence dice and remove the lock on an Evade result.

But anyway, I agree - the Missiles would all seem pretty well balanced if you kept the Target Lock with all of them. Would the same be true for Torpedoes?

Harpoons:

Every other missile:

Homers were pretty much only used BECAUSE they didnt eat the targetlock to fire. Which i agree made no sense in the current context. Theys dead now. It never denied evades because everyone would just not evade if they saw homers. Evades are usually better than focuses, but if you cant use it just get the focus....
I get the original idea was probably to prevent back-to-back ordnance, but they really should have built in some rerolls to compensate. Little late to do that (also redundant since there are many ways to get a reroll or keep the TL now)

Change all missiles to the following base structure:
2points, 4 attack dice. range x-y. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

advanced homing missile:
4 points. 4 attack dice. range 2. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and a face up damage card. Then cancel all dice results.

assault missile:
4 points. 4 attack dice. range 2-3, If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and every other ship at range 1 of the defender suffers one damage. Then cancel all dice results.

cluster missile:
5 points. 4 attack dice. range 1-2. Perform this attack twice. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

concussion missile:
3 points: 4 attack dice. range 2-3. You may change one of your blank results to a hit result. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

cruise:
(got nothing here)

harpoon missile:
4 points. 4 attack dice. range 2-3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and assign the Harpooned condition card. Then cancel all dice results.

homing missile:
3 points: 4 attack dice. range 2-3. The defender can't spend evade tokens. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

ion pulse missile:
3 points. 4 attack dice. range 2-3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1(2?) damage and receives 2 ion tokens. Then cancel all dice results.

proton rockets:

3 points. 4 attack dice. range 1. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage Add one more damage for every 2 agility value. Then cancel all dice results.

That way you can select splash (assault/harpoon) for higher cost at 4 points. Or select procket/advanced homing/cluster for more damage at 3/4/5 points. Or select concussion/homing for better hit chances at 3 points. Or select ion to ionize.

Edit: without much consideration I'd say all should require a TL (maybe keep focus for procket) but it doesn't have to be spent for any.

35 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

the Missiles would all seem pretty well balanced if you kept the Target Lock with all of them.

Without chips, yeah. But with it, they are way to reliable.

Speaking of the TL action, not spending it while rerolling (potentially) all your dice seems OP to me; maybe just rerolling one die is enough (and doesn't invalidate predator/lone wlof/...).

37 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That way you can select splash (assault/harpoon) for higher cost at 4 points. Or select procket/advanced homing/cluster for more damage at 3/4/5 points. Or select concussion/homing for better hit chances at 3 points. Or select ion to ionize.

Edit: without much consideration I'd say all should require a TL (maybe keep focus for procket) but it doesn't have to be spent for any.

I really like the idea, not sure I agree with the application. With certain exceptions, high agility targets should be able to easily avoid ordnance, low agility targets should take damage. So Homing missiles and the like could be useful against high agility targets but do low damage, Concussion/Cruise/Assault missiles etc should be easy to avoid but do big damage if they hit. Ion missiles should do shield damage only plus assign ion tokens.

I'd go:

Change all missiles to the following base structure:
2 points, 2 attack dice. range x-y. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 3 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

advanced homing missile:
3 points. 4 attack dice. range 2.
If this attack hits, the defender receives a face up damage card. Then cancel all dice results.

assault missile:
4 points. 2 attack dice. range 2-3.
If this attack hits, the defender suffers 3 damage and every other ship at range 1 of the defender suffers one damage. Then cancel all dice results.

cluster missile:
4 points. 2 attack dice. range 1-2.
Perform this attack twice. Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

concussion missile:
3 points: 2 attack dice. range 2-3.
You may change one of your blank results to a hit result. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 3 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

cruise:
4 points: 2 attack dice. range 2-3.
If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage per speed level of your last maneuver. Then cancel all dice results.

harpoon missile:
4 points. 2 attack dice. range 2-3.
If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage and assign the Harpooned condition card. Then cancel all dice results.

homing missile:
3 points: 4 attack dice. range 2-3.
The defender can't spend evade tokens. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

ion pulse missile:
3 points. 2 attack dice. range 2-3.
If this attack hits, the defender loses 2 shields and receives 2 ion tokens. Then cancel all dice results.

proton rockets:
3 points. 3 attack dice. range 1.
If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 critical damage for each uncancelled hit or crit result. Then cancel all dice results.

1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

2 points, 2 attack dice.

+1 against big ships and we're fine

speaking of better vs big ships i feel like Unguided should have been that, since its basically just a massive swarm blanket of missiles. Bigger target, more missiles might hit.
Not like it would auto kill them since only a few ships can even use it and you cant doublemod it

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

I'd go:

you changed most attacks to 2 dice. The idea (of SOTL btw) is that missiles are the ordnance that is better at hitting high agility ships but keeps damage low. Which is why I made cluster e.g. 5 points because it can deal 4 damage, way too much actually. I'd rather have 2*1.5 for 3-4pt. Torpedoes would be the ordnance of choice against low agility ships - with the reversed basic setup of 2 attack dice - 4 damage.

Just now, Giledhil said:

+1 against big ships and we're fine

Wouldn't need it most of the time; it's only the Firespray, Aggressor, YT-2400, JM5K-hack-tooey and Lancer which would be difficult to hit, and I'd be willing to give the first two of those a pass. Latts/Ventress would be a pain mind you. You'd probably see a huge increase in the number of ships rocking Countermeasures, though!

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The idea is that missiles are the ordnance that is better at hitting high agility ships but keeps damage low. Torpedoes would be the ordnance of choice against low agility ships - with the reversed basic setup of 2 attack dice - 4 damage.

Sure, makes sense and I agree in principle, but I think we've probably evolved past that something that straightforward due to the sheer number of missiles and torpedos in the game now. There's going to be overlap, and I think making ordnance viable against big lumbering targets the rule and viable against small, high agility targets the exception is probably the way to go.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

I've never understood having to "spend" a Target Lock to fire ordnance or modify results. Target Lock would be a great action if you didn't need to spend it for either effect. Once you acquire a lock on a target, you should be able to maintain it until it's destroyed or the target manages to shake it off. For example you could spend an Evade token to remove a target lock, or if you don't have Evade, use your action to roll one defence dice and remove the lock on an Evade result.

But anyway, I agree - the Missiles would all seem pretty well balanced if you kept the Target Lock with all of them. Would the same be true for Torpedoes?

Nicely thought and typed.

I've often thought all missles should need a target lock but not require spending it. And I've also thought you should never be able to spend the TLs to take re-rolls on ordinance --just have a good pool of dice so variance is higher-- as the ordinance is away and the pilot's abitily to modify the angle of attack is over; whereas when chasing an enemy while holding the triggers down on your lasers, one could modify the ship's angle and vector to manipulate the laser shots; resulting in the game mechanic or re-rolling red dice. I'm over thinking this yes, but sometimes thinking is OK.

Power creep is real and gaining strength by the day; older releases will all soon be extinct without errata and FAQs. Maybe they'll just issue ordinance pods at a reduced cost that can only carry older, outdated, overcosted ordinance, IDK.

48 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Wouldn't need it most of the time; it's only the Firespray, Aggressor, YT-2400, JM5K-hack-tooey and Lancer which would be difficult to hit, and I'd be willing to give the first two of those a pass. Latts/Ventress would be a pain mind you. You'd probably see a huge increase in the number of ships rocking Countermeasures, though!

But concerning big ships, just compare :

YT1300 / Y-wing
YT2400 / X-wing
Aggressor / A-wing

no way the first is as difficult to touch with a torpedo than the second. And, as you say, they have countermeasures

1 minute ago, Giledhil said:

But concerning big ships, just compare :

YT1300 / Y-wing
YT2400 / X-wing
Aggressor / A-wing

no way the first is as difficult to touch with a torpedo than the second. And, as you say, they have countermeasures

Clearly you've never flown against TIE Bombers in the Y-shaped coffin...

18 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Clearly you've never flown against TIE Bombers in the Y-shaped coffin...

Bombers deserve their 2 green dice ! ^^

Generally, all missiles and torpedoes should change to fixed damage.

Torpedoes should be few attack dice, but lots of damage. Missiles should be lots of attack dice, but few damage. Missiles could also have range greater then 3. Also, most attacks shouldnt spend your target lock to fire.

Proton Torpedoes; Attack 2. Range 2-3. Attack Target Lock: Discard this card to perform this attack. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 4 damage and 1 critical damage. Then cancel all dice results

Advanced Proton Torpedoes: Attack 2. Range 1-2. Attack Target Lock: Discard this card to perform this attack. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 4 damage and 2 critical damage. Then cancel all dice results.

Cluster Missiles: Attack 3. Range 2-4. Attack Target Lock: Discard this card to perform this attack twice. Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

Cruise Missiles: Attack 1. Range 2-5. Attack Target Lock: Discard this card to perform this attack. You may add attack dice equal to the speed of the maneuver you performed this round, to a maximum of 4 additional dice. If this attack hits, the defender suffers damage equal to the speed of the maneuver you performed thus round, to a maximum of 3 damage.

Homing Missiles: Attack 3. Range 2-3. Attack Target Lock: Discard this card and spend your target lock to perform this attack. Your Crit results cannot be canceled by defense dice. Your attack dice cannot be modified except by spending a focus token for its standard effect.

So missiles would be better against agile ships, torpedoes would be better against low agility ships, but if they hit a high agility ship they would likely one shot it.

22 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Generally, all missiles and torpedoes should change to fixed damage.

Torpedoes should be few attack dice, but lots of damage. Missiles should be lots of attack dice, but few damage. Missiles could also have range greater then 3. Also, most attacks shouldnt spend your target lock to fire.

Proton Torpedoes; Attack 2. Range 2-3. Attack Target Lock: Discard this card to perform this attack. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 4 damage and 1 critical damage. Then cancel all dice results

Advanced Proton Torpedoes: Attack 2. Range 1-2. Attack Target Lock: Discard this card to perform this attack. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 4 damage and 2 critical damage. Then cancel all dice results.

Cluster Missiles: Attack 3. Range 2-4. Attack Target Lock: Discard this card to perform this attack twice. Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

Cruise Missiles: Attack 1. Range 2-5. Attack Target Lock: Discard this card to perform this attack. You may add attack dice equal to the speed of the maneuver you performed this round, to a maximum of 4 additional dice. If this attack hits, the defender suffers damage equal to the speed of the maneuver you performed thus round, to a maximum of 3 damage.

Homing Missiles: Attack 3. Range 2-3. Attack Target Lock: Discard this card and spend your target lock to perform this attack. Your Crit results cannot be canceled by defense dice. Your attack dice cannot be modified except by spending a focus token for its standard effect.

So missiles would be better against agile ships, torpedoes would be better against low agility ships, but if they hit a high agility ship they would likely one shot it.

This is unnecessarily empowering ordinance. Auto-damage takes a lot out of the game. There should only be small amounts of auto-damage anywhere and it's super appropriate on bombs since they depend on good maneuvering to use to great effect. Any of these would wreck nearly every single small-base ship in the game. It's waaaayyy OP. A heavily loaded Punisher would destroy an enemy's list without breaking a sweat. Nera Dantels would be absolutely terrifying. Dice are in this game for a reason.

Just now, FTS Gecko said:

For example you could spend an Evade token to remove a target lock, or if you don't have Evade, use your action to roll one defence dice and remove the lock on an Evade result.

this is represented by the Expert Handling EPT. which was introduced in wave 1.

28 minutes ago, GLEXOR said:

this is represented by the Expert Handling EPT. which was introduced in wave 1.

I think he's talking about a core mechanic. Expert handling has massive downsides: it's too expensive, it stresses you, it occupies the slot, and you have no idea whether you could need it or not.

If there was a side deck then maybe it could finde some use. But definitely not as it is now.

if there was a core mechanic to ditch a targetlock, targetlocks would be useless. Even as it is, if you have a way to shed them it can cripple people who need a TL to function.

19 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

if there was a core mechanic to ditch a targetlock, targetlocks would be useless. Even as it is, if you have a way to shed them it can cripple people who need a TL to function.

Only Sith deal in absolutes!

It would depends on the mechanic. If we look at the suggestions above - spending an evade token to lose a Target Lock wouldn't be available to every ship in the game, spending a defensive token on something that's not actually an attack (but enables one) would be a tricky call to make. Equally, spending your action to have a green RNG chance at losing a Target Lock probably wouldn't be something you'd want to do unless desperate.

The point is, if you make Target Locks persistent, you'd also need to give ships a way to (potentially) escape their effects.