22 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

they all have in common that they are EXTREMELY important and crucial in winning the battle. Something that translates very badly to a competitive game in my opinion. We would need a 'charging' mechanics of some sort, a timer that announces the impeding doom

I lost my last game based on a conner net prevent my Fenn Rau making his Talon roll and finishing off Miranda. Secondary effects from secondary weapons can be game changers. The issue is that FFG struggles to price those things right and/or adjust their damage to make them worth it. Giving up most of your damage for a secondary effect is already a harsh cost, if you add on top of that a 3 point cost to for example Ion Pulse Missiles it becomes a lackluster upgrade, especially if it is a one use upgrade.

23 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

So what you're telling me is that in the entire history of starfighter on starfighter combat in the films the ONLY time that ordnance was used was 'that bit with Jango Fett's ship'. I'm not counting buzzdroids because they're stupid, and I'm a bit upset that you've reminded me of their existence.

Pretty much, yes.

Looks like torpedoes should only be able to hit huge or at maximum large ships, and missiles are half of the time about applying an effect rather than doing immediate damage. The other one is Boba Fett finishing off a shieldless ships.

Which gives me two ideas: what if missiles could only do damage on hull, an only if there are no shields remaining?

8 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

I lost my last game based on a conner net prevent my Fenn Rau making his Talon roll and finishing off Miranda. Secondary effects from secondary weapons can be game changers. The issue is that FFG struggles to price those things right and/or adjust their damage to make them worth it. Giving up most of your damage for a secondary effect is already a harsh cost, if you add on top of that a 3 point cost to for example Ion Pulse Missiles it becomes a lackluster upgrade, especially if it is a one use upgrade.

Secondary effects by secondary weapons are great. Secondary weapons doing just damage is also ok. But the combination of effects with above-average damage is not in my opinion.
So we want non-limited way to apply an effect? Turrets and cannons are doing exactly that (and it's also mind boggling that the range boni don't apply...) with tractor beam and ion cannon.

They need more or equal damage as the primary simply due to the opportunity cost, but not too much burst damage because alphastrikes make the game into a coin toss.
Then there needs to be a special effect (or more damage) to make up for the limited usage.
And last there is also some form of additional cost, next to the extra points and not using your primary. This is often a TL, a focus, range restriction or now a maneuver.

So why not make sure that ordnance stays at 3-4 red dice, but delivers a special effect? And I think obvious new design space is damage over time (hello buzzdroids... ohnowhathaveidone) and a charging effect to increase the output.

Well, if you had a DeLorean and knew from Wave 1 what Waves 2-11 would be about...

Torpedoes & bombs should be the counter to big ships that we don't have. They should have chuff all chance of hitting an A-Wing, but be what you bring you hammer down the Ghost or a Decimator. In reality the way they work in game mechanics has the opposite effect, because small ships get one-shotted and you're incentivised to stack a bit more hull.

I would position torpedoes as low chance to hit but high damage (so effective against big ships), missiles as high chance to hit but low damage (so effective against fighters).

You can't really do this without separating 'chance to hit' and 'damage dealt'.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Well, if you had a DeLorean and knew from Wave 1 what Waves 2-11 would be about...

Torpedoes & bombs should be the counter to big ships that we don't have. They should have chuff all chance of hitting an A-Wing, but be what you bring you hammer down the Ghost or a Decimator. In reality the way they work in game mechanics has the opposite effect, because small ships get one-shotted and you're incentivised to stack a bit more hull.

I would position torpedoes as low chance to hit but high damage (so effective against big ships), missiles as high chance to hit but low damage (so effective against fighters).

You can't really do this without separating 'chance to hit' and 'damage dealt'.

Different die types is how to do this. But it's way too late.

Yeah

i'm not a big fan of this card either, it's not just a counter for FSR, who themselves were kinda counter to those degenerate RAC-Kylo/buddy lists, but it punishes all forms of formation flying, which is a crucial thing to master this game

just my two cents really,...

15 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Well, if you had a DeLorean and knew from Wave 1 what Waves 2-11 would be about...

Torpedoes & bombs should be the counter to big ships that we don't have. They should have chuff all chance of hitting an A-Wing, but be what you bring you hammer down the Ghost or a Decimator. In reality the way they work in game mechanics has the opposite effect, because small ships get one-shotted and you're incentivised to stack a bit more hull.

I would position torpedoes as low chance to hit but high damage (so effective against big ships), missiles as high chance to hit but low damage (so effective against fighters).

You can't really do this without separating 'chance to hit' and 'damage dealt'.

The most simple way to achieve this would be require a target lock to be spend on small ships, while keep your target lock against large ships. Alternatively you draw a line based on agility. Something like "You do not need to spend your target lock against targets with agility 1 or lower.

2 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

The most simple way to achieve this would be require a target lock to be spend on small ships, while keep your target lock against large ships. Alternatively you draw a line based on agility. Something like "You do not need to spend your target lock against targets with agility 1 or lower.

Just make a missile roll 4 red dice and deal 2 damage, and a torpedo roll 2 red dice and deal 4 damage (that's the ELI5 version, at least).

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Just make a missile roll 4 red dice and deal 2 damage, and a torpedo roll 2 red dice and deal 4 damage (that's the ELI5 version, at least).

They already use that concept anyways with ion missiles and others:

Example Missile: 4 attack dice, range x-3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
Example Torpedo: 2 attack dice, range x-3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 4 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

They should have made it two torp slots for sure and it should be like 6 or 7 points. The new guy on the team is totally an OP player that loves making things that are OP. It's obvious and sad. The thing is Alex and Frank should be reviewing his stuff and not letting it pass, but alas I guess they are not.

I'm surprised theres not more outrage from the epic crowd tbh. They're the ones who will really suffer with hapoons out there en mass.

3 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

I'm surprised theres not more outrage from the epic crowd tbh. They're the ones who will really suffer with hapoons out there en mass.

If by "suffer" you mean "can use"

Two hard points will let you trigger your own harpoon and give huge ships a tool against vastly more efficient fighters

6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

If by "suffer" you mean "can use"

Two hard points will let you trigger your own harpoon and give huge ships a tool against vastly more efficient fighters

If that side gets to fire them. 3 dice primary carriers have the potential to detonate several a turn firing them at strategic targets in pairs.

2 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

If that side gets to fire them. 3 dice primary carriers have the potential to detonate several a turn firing them at the same target in pairs.

Use PS tricks, which honestly you should bring if you're putting that many points in one ship. Can also supplement with higher ps ordnance carriers

Trim the herd

I also always bring dtf jonus. Won't stop the condition but it keeps your ship alive a lot longer even with the splash damage

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Episode 7... don't remember, I think not

The resistance ships torpedo the thermal maguffinator.

The ventral cannons fired at the stolen TIE/sf look to be guided missiles.

31 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

If by "suffer" you mean "can use"

Two hard points will let you trigger your own harpoon and give huge ships a tool against vastly more efficient fighters

Getting the critical when firing them from hardpoints is going to be relatively hard - I guess you can fire off harpoons from the raider and then set them off with mangler cannon armed ships and/or a marksmanship swarm?

5 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Homing missiles are still super useful in a meta with evade token stacking.
Concussion missiles never were super useful in the first place and they still hit a little harder than homing and harpoon missiles when chips get involved. ( 3.9453125 hits on average with focus.)

All the cancel all die results and deal 1 damage and a secondary effect to the defender missile so far had been useless, because this kind of damage is just to low to justify giving up an attack and investing the points into them. This kind of missile would been to be either dirt cheap or actually be a decent 3 or 4 dice attack. Now I think harpoon missile would have worked still when you had to spend your target lock to fire it or with better with an attack value of 3 instead or even both and a point reduction. But 1 damage missiles do not cut it. They are useful against high agility targets still, but they are just too weak against all those fat ships.

If they were a cancel all die results and only dealing one damage, Harpoons would still be good. IPM and AHMs are lackluster because their damage is capped at a hard 1 and they are at least a point too expensive. Harpoons can potentially do as much damage as there are ships around the victim. Even on a single target, there would still be a decent shot to do two damage to a target if you can bring something that reliably crits and one being an actual damage card.

They seem way superior on paper than any other missile as they are in their current form. Especially against squads that need to be in some sort of formation to work.

3 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Just make a missile roll 4 red dice and deal 2 damage, and a torpedo roll 2 red dice and deal 4 damage (that's the ELI5 version, at least).

Works as well, though you keep that one-shot potential, especially if you introduce effects like Zuckuss, 4-LOM, tractor beam, etc which make hits with just two dice likely. Now those 4 dice missiles are an elegant solution until you realise that you are paying points here for something which is less useful than a 3 dice primary against those larger ship and thus becomes a hard counter upgrade, the exact thing we don't really want nor need.

Now if secondary weapons become part of a sideboard, we would be talking, because in that cause you plan ahead with an ordnance budget in your list, but choose specifics based your opponent.

1 hour ago, Jo Jo said:

Harpoons can potentially do as much damage as there are ships around the victim. Even on a single target, there would still be a decent shot to do two damage to a target if you can bring something that reliably crits and one being an actual damage card.

There are tons of lists which will not care at all about the splash damage. Actually, those lists would happy take 2 or 3 of those harpooned conditions with pleasure. LoneWolf Dash or Lando? Hurray, crits against me will destroy my enemies. ;-)
And btw, you misread the condition. The condition will never do damage to the ship which has the condition. The phrase is explicitly "each other ship at range 1". This excludes the ship itself, but it does not exclude hostile ships. So if the damage would have been capped to 1 damage, it would be super crappy and a waste of points against classical two ship lists.

4 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Now those 4 dice missiles are an elegant solution until you realise that you are paying points here for something which is less useful than a 3 dice primary against those larger ship and thus becomes a hard counter upgrade, the exact thing we don't really want nor need.

What do you think about this`?

Change all missiles to the following base structure:
2points, 4 attack dice. range x-y. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

• advanced homing missile:
  • 4 points. 4 attack dice. range 2. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and a face up damage card. Then cancel all dice results.
• assault missile:
  • 4 points. 4 attack dice. range 2-3, If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and every other ship at range 1 of the defender suffers one damage. Then cancel all dice results.
• cluster missile:
  • 5 points. 4 attack dice. range 1-2. Perform this attack twice. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
• concussion missile:
  • 3 points: 4 attack dice. range 2-3. You may change one of your blank results to a hit result. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
• cruise:
  • (got nothing here)
• harpoon missile:
  • 4 points. 4 attack dice. range 2-3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and assign the Harpooned condition card. Then cancel all dice results.
• homing missile:
  • 3 points: 4 attack dice. range 2-3. The defender can't spend evade tokens. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
• ion pulse missile:
  • 3 points. 4 attack dice. range 2-3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1(2?) damage and receives 2 ion tokens. Then cancel all dice results.
• proton rockets:
  • 3 points. 4 attack dice. range 1. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage Add one more damage for every 2 agility value. Then cancel all dice results.

That way you can select splash (assault/harpoon) for higher cost at 4 points. Or select procket/advanced homing/cluster for more damage at 3/4/5 points. Or select concussion/homing for better hit chances at 3 points. Or select ion to ionize.
without much consideration I'd say all should require a TL (maybe keep focus for procket) but it doesn't have to be spent for any.

IMO they are all equal enough to a 3dice primary. With the benefit that you are more likely to do damage (and an extra effect), but with additional cost.

9 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

There are tons of lists which will not care at all about the splash damage. Actually, those lists would happy take 2 or 3 of those harpooned conditions with pleasure. LoneWolf Dash or Lando? Hurray, crits against me will destroy my enemies. ;-)
And btw, you misread the condition. The condition will never do damage to the ship which has the condition. The phrase is explicitly "each other ship at range 1". This excludes the ship itself, but it does not exclude hostile ships. So if the damage would have been capped to 1 damage, it would be super crappy and a waste of points against classical two ship lists.

And you missed the "Then discard this card and receive 1 facedown Damage card."

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

What do you think about this`?

Change all missiles to the following base structure:
2points, 4 attack dice. range x-y. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

• advanced homing missile:
  • 4 points. 4 attack dice. range 2. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and a face up damage card. Then cancel all dice results.
• assault missile:
  • 4 points. 4 attack dice. range 2-3, If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and every other ship at range 1 of the defender suffers one damage. Then cancel all dice results.
• cluster missile:
  • 5 points. 4 attack dice. range 1-2. Perform this attack twice. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
• concussion missile:
  • 3 points: 4 attack dice. range 2-3. You may change one of your blank results to a hit result. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
• cruise:
  • (got nothing here)
• harpoon missile:
  • 4 points. 4 attack dice. range 2-3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage and assign the Harpooned condition card. Then cancel all dice results.
• homing missile:
  • 3 points: 4 attack dice. range 2-3. The defender can't spend evade tokens. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
• ion pulse missile:
  • 3 points. 4 attack dice. range 2-3. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1(2?) damage and receives 2 ion tokens. Then cancel all dice results.
• proton rockets:
  • 3 points. 4 attack dice. range 1. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 damage Add one more damage for every 2 agility value. Then cancel all dice results.

Advanced homing missile. Hey cool, a soontir killer at 4 points and with a 47% chance to one shot Soontir Fel.

Cluster Missile, stripping token expert, not sure about this one, might work, need more math.

Harpoon missile, yeah 2 damage should be worth it.

Homing Missile: Sounds cheap. But with just two damage it does sound as well rather fair and not frustrating.

Proton rockets: Another Soontir killer, but this one will kill Fenn Rau as well when used in combination with a Stealth Device to push agility to 4.

I kind of like the idea, I am not sure about the balance. A lot of those damage values are devastating for squishy ships while offering very high chances of applying the damage, meanwhile a lot of those missiles are a lot weaker big ships. I guess you could counter those with torpedos, doing similar things with an 2 attack dice base and massive damage. Could be good, good be bad. Need some math and play testing. Still, a few of those are outrageous op, the advanced homing missile especially.

18 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

I kind of like the idea, I am not sure about the balance. A lot of those damage values are devastating for squishy ships while offering very high chances of applying the damage, meanwhile a lot of those missiles are a lot weaker big ships. I guess you could counter those with torpedos, doing similar things with an 2 attack dice base and massive damage. Could be good, good be bad. Need some math and play testing. Still, a few of those are outrageous op, the advanced homing missile especially.

Of course the balance needs more than the few minutes
Overall I don't think that 1 damage is worth it, but more than 2 is already quite too good.

Advanced homing could also be reduced in cost and damage, e.g. 2-3pt and just the faceup damage card.
Cluster: I'd like 2*1.5 damage for 4 points. Maybe: Perform this attack twice. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 2 1 damage. If both attacks hit the defender suffers 1 additional damage. Then cancel all dice results.
Homing missile: maybe point cost or damage needs some tweaking.
Prockets: Ah, good catch. An option would be 2 points, 1 damage. Add one more damage for every two agility value.

24 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

And you missed the "Then discard this card and receive 1 facedown Damage card."

Indeed I did. Darn, the harpoon is much worse than I thought. I thought it sticks around until removed by the action. Still, two damage against those large ships is only worth on on agility 2+
Good enough I guess. So yeah, dealing two damage is okish enough.