6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'm for the first time really disliking a new card and thinking it's a bad idea. So please convince me that it's not the case and the sky isn't falling.
First I'll talk through the thought experiment, and then I'll explain why I dislike the new card. Also I copied most from the Vaksai thread, so you might read that twice now.

Vader/Inquisitor/QD at PS10/10/9 . Vader has 97% for 4 hits, Inqui has 74% (and 94% for 3 or 4 hits) and QD is at 90% for 4 hits, so they will all hit against most lists. QD has ASTS, so his chances for a crit are quite good at 1.44 expected crits and 92%. But even without that we're looking at 10-12 hits. Chances to blow out one ship are quite high, especially if QD scores a crit which deals the facedown from the previous two.

Against FSR2/stage4 with Jess+Selflessness, Lowhhrick+DTF. Also I assume here that Jess gets 2 evades on every shot. The 4 hits on Inquisitor only happens at 74%, so I'm a bit too generous here. But then again Jess won't roll all evades. The other oversimplification might be that QD gets a crit, but 92% seems high enough...

• Target Jess, give her ASTS from QD
• Vader rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits, 1 can be tanked by the reinforce. So 1 hit + condition. HP: 3/2
• Inqui rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits + condition. HP: 3/0
• QD gets in 1 hits and a crit. Lowhhrick draws the crit, but it still triggers harpooned. Jess can use IA. Rex at 1/0 HP. Biggs at 3/0. Jess at 1/0. Lowhhrick at 6/0.

But if Jess does not have 2 evades on every shot, then she dies, and Rex dies, and Biggs is on 2 HP. After the first round of shots. I just want to reiterate that every other 4 ship list flying in formation is probably off worse.
If Jess survives that last shot with 1HP and an already used astromech, then she can't try to roll to remove the condition. Because doing so will destroy her and Rex with a 50% chance. Once the 3 HP of biggs are gone (which should be easy enough), Jess can be shot. Which kills her. Which deals a damage to Rex and Lowhhrick, which kills Rex too. Or Jess breaks formation and she dies even faster.

The list can one-shot 3/4 of the current broken-ness.
That's pretty good IMO.

Second part, why I dislike it. Strongly.

I like Aces and Swarms. Both archetypes have become very rare anyways, but they were still playable. Nym basically banned out aces for now.

This upgrade will be the last nail in the coffin of swarms. The question is obviously why when we already have other splash damage cards.

My reasoning is simple: Harpoon Missiles are too good against normal lists. The 4 points for 4 attack dice plus very likely at least one more damage is solid. Compare that to Cruise Missiles. These allow 5 dice attacks, but that's hard to set up. In fact I've read again and again that you often have to use them after a 3speed maneuver for just 4 dice. That was also my own experience so far. Cruise missiles are 1 point cheaper, but much harder to use.

That means lists using them can compete with other lists. But for the odd chance that they encounter another list that likes to stay within range 1 of each other (so every Biggs list for example. Maybe not so odd?) they will be vastly better than any other missile or torpedo.

So I claim that Harpoons will be the new go-to missiles. And that means swarms become literally unplayable for as long as Harpoon Missiles are to be expected.

....don't fly in swarm formation?

Or try to get in range 1? Even if they are in PS 10 is not so difficult to avoid 3 missiles shots. Because all of this will happens only if all the 3 missiles are shooting. If you move well, you can avoid your opponent to shoot all 3 Harpook Missiles together.

So the first counter against this strategy is to know how to fly against missile carriers. You need to be able to fly in formation, and to NOT fly in formation, depends on the match.

It doesn't counter swarms, because you can fly them separately. You just need to get practice for it.

So, basically, it just counter Biggs. Is that so bad? Not for me. You will need to improve your fly skills, and not just slow rolling, turtle up yourself, and roll dices because your opponent can't do nothing against you. Finally, maneuvering will come back as an essential into this game (as it should always been).

That card is saying: "stop playing with cards, X-Wing is a template maneuvers game, not a living card came" and I'm really happy about that. I'm talking as an Ordnance player mostly (I like theme) but I know that theme can be countered if my opponent fly well. Deadeye will help, but it cost you an EPT on Aces (because we are talking about Ps 10 Ordnances), so normally you will not see it. But first of all, playing on their range. They stil range 2-3. Slow roll in early game, try to separate your ships, then boost in range one. Put your enemy in struggle, don't let him create the situation for shooting Ordnances. It still possible, just you can't slow roll and turtle up anymore. Let's this tactics in Epic games, X-Wing is a dogfighting game, you're flying spaceships not driving tanks.

PS: Nothing that 3 Assault Missiles can't do anyway. Did you ever seen them?

PPS: Anyway, Nym doesn't shred any maneuvrable Ace, only the jousters. It basically shred Fenn Rau more than Soontir Fel (IF the imp. player is good enough to fly him well as years ago, when Fel was common to see). He still too slow....maybe with EU, but no one is building him in this way (for now).

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'm for the first time really disliking a new card and thinking it's a bad idea. So please convince me that it's not the case and the sky isn't falling.
First I'll talk through the thought experiment, and then I'll explain why I dislike the new card. Also I copied most from the Vaksai thread, so you might read that twice now.

Vader/Inquisitor/QD at PS10/10/9 . Vader has 97% for 4 hits, Inqui has 74% (and 94% for 3 or 4 hits) and QD is at 90% for 4 hits, so they will all hit against most lists. QD has ASTS, so his chances for a crit are quite good at 1.44 expected crits and 92%. But even without that we're looking at 10-12 hits. Chances to blow out one ship are quite high, especially if QD scores a crit which deals the facedown from the previous two.

Against FSR2/stage4 with Jess+Selflessness, Lowhhrick+DTF. Also I assume here that Jess gets 2 evades on every shot. The 4 hits on Inquisitor only happens at 74%, so I'm a bit too generous here. But then again Jess won't roll all evades. The other oversimplification might be that QD gets a crit, but 92% seems high enough...

• Target Jess, give her ASTS from QD
• Vader rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits, 1 can be tanked by the reinforce. So 1 hit + condition. HP: 3/2
• Inqui rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits + condition. HP: 3/0
• QD gets in 1 hits and a crit. Lowhhrick draws the crit, but it still triggers harpooned. Jess can use IA. Rex at 1/0 HP. Biggs at 3/0. Jess at 1/0. Lowhhrick at 6/0.

But if Jess does not have 2 evades on every shot, then she dies, and Rex dies, and Biggs is on 2 HP. After the first round of shots. I just want to reiterate that every other 4 ship list flying in formation is probably off worse.
If Jess survives that last shot with 1HP and an already used astromech, then she can't try to roll to remove the condition. Because doing so will destroy her and Rex with a 50% chance. Once the 3 HP of biggs are gone (which should be easy enough), Jess can be shot. Which kills her. Which deals a damage to Rex and Lowhhrick, which kills Rex too. Or Jess breaks formation and she dies even faster.

The list can one-shot 3/4 of the current broken-ness.
That's pretty good IMO.

Second part, why I dislike it. Strongly.

I like Aces and Swarms. Both archetypes have become very rare anyways, but they were still playable. Nym basically banned out aces for now.

This upgrade will be the last nail in the coffin of swarms. The question is obviously why when we already have other splash damage cards.

My reasoning is simple: Harpoon Missiles are too good against normal lists. The 4 points for 4 attack dice plus very likely at least one more damage is solid. Compare that to Cruise Missiles. These allow 5 dice attacks, but that's hard to set up. In fact I've read again and again that you often have to use them after a 3speed maneuver for just 4 dice. That was also my own experience so far. Cruise missiles are 1 point cheaper, but much harder to use.

That means lists using them can compete with other lists. But for the odd chance that they encounter another list that likes to stay within range 1 of each other (so every Biggs list for example. Maybe not so odd?) they will be vastly better than any other missile or torpedo.

So I claim that Harpoons will be the new go-to missiles. And that means swarms become literally unplayable for as long as Harpoon Missiles are to be expected.

You claim to be a swarm player....

So standard Assault missile, and bomb protocols apply. Spread your **** swarm out.

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'm for the first time really disliking a new card and thinking it's a bad idea. So please convince me that it's not the case and the sky isn't falling.
First I'll talk through the thought experiment, and then I'll explain why I dislike the new card. Also I copied most from the Vaksai thread, so you might read that twice now.

Vader/Inquisitor/QD at PS10/10/9 . Vader has 97% for 4 hits, Inqui has 74% (and 94% for 3 or 4 hits) and QD is at 90% for 4 hits, so they will all hit against most lists. QD has ASTS, so his chances for a crit are quite good at 1.44 expected crits and 92%. But even without that we're looking at 10-12 hits. Chances to blow out one ship are quite high, especially if QD scores a crit which deals the facedown from the previous two.

Against FSR2/stage4 with Jess+Selflessness, Lowhhrick+DTF. Also I assume here that Jess gets 2 evades on every shot. The 4 hits on Inquisitor only happens at 74%, so I'm a bit too generous here. But then again Jess won't roll all evades. The other oversimplification might be that QD gets a crit, but 92% seems high enough...

• Target Jess, give her ASTS from QD
• Vader rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits, 1 can be tanked by the reinforce. So 1 hit + condition. HP: 3/2
• Inqui rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits + condition. HP: 3/0
• QD gets in 1 hits and a crit. Lowhhrick draws the crit, but it still triggers harpooned. Jess can use IA. Rex at 1/0 HP. Biggs at 3/0. Jess at 1/0. Lowhhrick at 6/0.

But if Jess does not have 2 evades on every shot, then she dies, and Rex dies, and Biggs is on 2 HP. After the first round of shots. I just want to reiterate that every other 4 ship list flying in formation is probably off worse.
If Jess survives that last shot with 1HP and an already used astromech, then she can't try to roll to remove the condition. Because doing so will destroy her and Rex with a 50% chance. Once the 3 HP of biggs are gone (which should be easy enough), Jess can be shot. Which kills her. Which deals a damage to Rex and Lowhhrick, which kills Rex too. Or Jess breaks formation and she dies even faster.

There's acouple mistakes in here. Rex doesn't die no matter what happens in the first round (unless he's the one being shot). With 3 homing missile shots you can't have more than 2 splash damage in the round. If jess dies to the harpooned splash damage, then the dead man's switch doesn't happen, because the condition is gone. And if she's dead, the third Harpooned condition can't go on her to trigger the dead man's switch from that one. However it works out, Rex doesn't take more than 2 damage. Furthermore, Jess is still free to roll to remove the condition if she survives at 1 hp. If she does the action, the condition is removed firs,t THEN you roll for damage, so if she rolls the damge, she dies, but there's no splash fromt he dead man's switch effect.

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The list can one-shot 3/4 of the current broken-ness.
That's pretty good IMO.

Second part, why I dislike it. Strongly.

I like Aces and Swarms. Both archetypes have become very rare anyways, but they were still playable. Nym basically banned out aces for now.

This upgrade will be the last nail in the coffin of swarms. The question is obviously why when we already have other splash damage cards.

My reasoning is simple: Harpoon Missiles are too good against normal lists. The 4 points for 4 attack dice plus very likely at least one more damage is solid. Compare that to Cruise Missiles. These allow 5 dice attacks, but that's hard to set up. In fact I've read again and again that you often have to use them after a 3speed maneuver for just 4 dice. That was also my own experience so far. Cruise missiles are 1 point cheaper, but much harder to use.

That means lists using them can compete with other lists. But for the odd chance that they encounter another list that likes to stay within range 1 of each other (so every Biggs list for example. Maybe not so odd?) they will be vastly better than any other missile or torpedo.

So I claim that Harpoons will be the new go-to missiles. And that means swarms become literally unplayable for as long as Harpoon Missiles are to be expected.

You can play swarms, you just can't stay in range 1 formation of each other. So howlrunner and biggs basically. You can still run a bunch of ships if you don't have to keep them together.

2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

It seems to splash more than assault missile or ruthlessness. After all if there is a weakness to damage sponge is that they all have to stay within range 1 so hit them with harpoons and proton bombs.

It doesn't splash any more than assault missiles. Assault missiles automatically splashes everyone at range 1 as soon as it hits. Harpooned simply applies the condition, then possibly splashes later. It's entirely possible it'll never splash at all. If you don't trigger it the same round you place it, the opponent could potentially spread out to avoid splash. Or they can remove the condition at the risk of a single damage tot he person with it. If a ship with it is destroyed with a crit in the roll, it splashes once, then the deadman doesn't happen because the condition is gone. It literally does the same splash as assault missiles

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'm for the first time really disliking a new card and thinking it's a bad idea. So please convince me that it's not the case and the sky isn't falling.
First I'll talk through the thought experiment, and then I'll explain why I dislike the new card. Also I copied most from the Vaksai thread, so you might read that twice now.

Vader/Inquisitor/QD at PS10/10/9 . Vader has 97% for 4 hits, Inqui has 74% (and 94% for 3 or 4 hits) and QD is at 90% for 4 hits, so they will all hit against most lists. QD has ASTS, so his chances for a crit are quite good at 1.44 expected crits and 92%. But even without that we're looking at 10-12 hits. Chances to blow out one ship are quite high, especially if QD scores a crit which deals the facedown from the previous two.

Against FSR2/stage4 with Jess+Selflessness, Lowhhrick+DTF. Also I assume here that Jess gets 2 evades on every shot. The 4 hits on Inquisitor only happens at 74%, so I'm a bit too generous here. But then again Jess won't roll all evades. The other oversimplification might be that QD gets a crit, but 92% seems high enough...

• Target Jess, give her ASTS from QD
• Vader rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits, 1 can be tanked by the reinforce. So 1 hit + condition. HP: 3/2
• Inqui rolls 4 hits, gets in 2 hits + condition. HP: 3/0
• QD gets in 1 hits and a crit. Lowhhrick draws the crit, but it still triggers harpooned. Jess can use IA. Rex at 1/0 HP. Biggs at 3/0. Jess at 1/0. Lowhhrick at 6/0.

But if Jess does not have 2 evades on every shot, then she dies, and Rex dies, and Biggs is on 2 HP. After the first round of shots. I just want to reiterate that every other 4 ship list flying in formation is probably off worse.
If Jess survives that last shot with 1HP and an already used astromech, then she can't try to roll to remove the condition. Because doing so will destroy her and Rex with a 50% chance. Once the 3 HP of biggs are gone (which should be easy enough), Jess can be shot. Which kills her. Which deals a damage to Rex and Lowhhrick, which kills Rex too. Or Jess breaks formation and she dies even faster.

The list can one-shot 3/4 of the current broken-ness.
That's pretty good IMO.

Second part, why I dislike it. Strongly.

I like Aces and Swarms. Both archetypes have become very rare anyways, but they were still playable. Nym basically banned out aces for now.

This upgrade will be the last nail in the coffin of swarms. The question is obviously why when we already have other splash damage cards.

My reasoning is simple: Harpoon Missiles are too good against normal lists. The 4 points for 4 attack dice plus very likely at least one more damage is solid. Compare that to Cruise Missiles. These allow 5 dice attacks, but that's hard to set up. In fact I've read again and again that you often have to use them after a 3speed maneuver for just 4 dice. That was also my own experience so far. Cruise missiles are 1 point cheaper, but much harder to use.

That means lists using them can compete with other lists. But for the odd chance that they encounter another list that likes to stay within range 1 of each other (so every Biggs list for example. Maybe not so odd?) they will be vastly better than any other missile or torpedo.

So I claim that Harpoons will be the new go-to missiles. And that means swarms become literally unplayable for as long as Harpoon Missiles are to be expected.

You know you can build something similar with those same pilots and assault missiles instead, no ASTS. All at PS10 and you don't even need the next box to do it. I realize there is a difference between the 2 missiles in that assaults is going to spend the TL.

More people would run Harpoons instead of Assaults because they are more efficient, but they option to counter formation/swarm type play has been around for a long time. I've got no idea what the hits with all 3 focused and TL'd onto Jess is, but I know that Rex flat out dies, Biggs loses 1 hull, Lowhrikk loses all his shields and at the very least so does Jess.

But with the TL's to avoid Biggs, can you "Over kill" Jess? And have to spend another round setting up at least 1 other TL (fire Vader last)?

3 hours ago, phild0 said:

1.5 years ago we all wanted better Ordnance.

Harpoon is better Ordnance. Cruise Missile is better Ordnance.

Why so much complaining?

Generalizations are a funny thing, aren't they? Besides, my personal "better" does not mean "powercreep", it means "better designed"

1 hour ago, Zazaa said:

This is counter against Fair well list and very bad news for swarm, but so was Assault Missiles and where are those? Aces aren't flying together pretty much never so no effect on them.

1 hour ago, Cerve said:

PS: Nothing that 3 Assault Missiles can't do anyway. Did you ever seen them?

I thought I explained that: "The question is obviously why when we already have other splash damage cards. [...] My reasoning is simple: Harpoon Missiles are too good against normal lists. The 4 points for 4 attack dice plus very likely at least one more damage is solid. That means lists using them can compete with other lists. But for the odd chance that they encounter another list that likes to stay within range 1 of each other (so every Biggs list for example. Maybe not so odd?) they will be vastly better than any other missile or torpedo. "

58 minutes ago, Cerve said:

....don't fly in swarm formation?

Or try to get in range 1? Even if they are in PS 10 is not so difficult to avoid 3 missiles shots. Because all of this will happens only if all the 3 missiles are shooting. If you move well, you can avoid your opponent to shoot all 3 Harpook Missiles together.

Eh, of course you try to jump from range 4 to 1. But that assumes the player with the harpoons is incapable of selecting the right maneuver. It makes movement important again, so that's great. A single mistake will all but end the game though, that's less great.

56 minutes ago, Icelom said:

You claim to be a swarm player....

So standard Assault missile, and bomb protocols apply. Spread your **** swarm out.

There are other downsides (see below). I see your point though - they can all converge and be at range 2 of each other until they get close enough fro snapshots.

55 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

If jess dies to the harpooned splash damage, then the dead man's switch doesn't happen, because the condition is gone. And if she's dead, the third Harpooned condition can't go on her to trigger the dead man's switch from that one.

I thought that the Harpooned condition is assigned in step 8 and triggered in step 6.iv (= "hit", check for crits) or step 10 (if destroyed) as that is where the attack is resolved and you're checked/declared to be destroyed? Does "after the attack resolves" mean it's after the attack? Which means Is Harpooned assigned after step 10? In that case you are right, third attack won't splash and Rex will survive with one HP.

I'm not so sure that it makes it much less worse - Biggs with 3 HP should be destroyed in the second attack. You then have to hope Jess survives, allowing you to trigger and the condition in the second round of attacks.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

Furthermore, Jess is still free to roll to remove the condition if she survives at 1 hp. If she does the action, the condition is removed firs,t THEN you roll for damage, so if she rolls the damge, she dies, but there's no splash fromt he dead man's switch effect.

Thank you, another good point! So let's say she survives the attack with 1 HP, which is not that unlikely (the more likely alternative is that she's destroyed...). She can try to remove the condition and be destroyed at a 50% chance. Or she can not remove the condition, be shot after Biggs is gone and destroy Rex by being blown up/hit by a crit.

That's the part I like - it forces a hard choice, which is good in my book.

1 hour ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

I have no problem flying swarms in broken formation.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

You can play swarms, you just can't stay in range 1 formation of each other. So howlrunner and biggs basically. You can still run a bunch of ships if you don't have to keep them together.

I don't know about your experience, but I often overhear something like "Oh look at how nicely he flew them in formation". I claim that formation - like known OT ships - is something that is generally liked about the game and draws people in. At least in that regard Harpoons are clearly a bad idea.

By the way: if this list is not facing Biggs then they can do stuff like moving Quickdraw to range 1 (basically use her as meat shield to prevent that Vader/Inq land at range 1), shoot a harpoon with Inquisitor, trigger it with ATC Vader, get two shots with QD. Definitely fun things - but shutting down formation-swarms is a hard sacrifice for me.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I thought that the Harpooned condition is assigned in step 8 and triggered in step 6.iv (= "hit", check for crits) or step 10 (if destroyed) as that is where the attack is resolved and you're checked/declared to be destroyed? Does "after the attack resolves" mean it's after the attack? Which means Is Harpooned assigned after step 10? In that case you are right, third attack won't splash and Rex will survive with one HP.

Harpoon missiles specify that the condition is assigned after the attack is resolved, so it would be after the deal damage step and ship being removed if destroyed. UNLESS you're dealing with simultaneous fire. If you fire at the same PS as the target, get the damge to destroy them, but they remain from simultaneous fire, they'd still get the condition, and thus explode for splash damage when they're removed from the board.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't know about your experience, but I often overhear something like "Oh look at how nicely he flew them in formation". I claim that formation - like known OT ships - is something that is generally liked about the game and draws people in. At least in that regard Harpoons are clearly a bad idea.

And you can still fly in formation most of the time. But if you see an opponent with harpoon missiles, just like assault missiles in the past, you spread out.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

By the way: if this list is not facing Biggs then they can do stuff like moving Quickdraw to range 1 (basically use her as meat shield to prevent that Vader/Inq land at range 1), shoot a harpoon with Inquisitor, trigger it with ATC Vader, get two shots with QD. Definitely fun things - but shutting down formation-swarms is a hard sacrifice for me.

Damaging your own quickdraw to get a free shot is almost never the right answer. It's almost always better to just not take damage and save the shields for revenge shots later in the game. Especially in this case, since you're almost certainly firing first, damaging your own quickdraw to get the extra shot just means they now focus fire on quickdraw and he has no shields for any subsequent revenge shots, if he doesn't die outright.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't know about your experience, but I often overhear something like "Oh look at how nicely he flew them in formation". I claim that formation - like known OT ships - is something that is generally liked about the game and draws people in. At least in that regard Harpoons are clearly a bad idea.

Flying in formation is one of the easier things to do in the game. Breaking it and reforming is a true art. Flying a broken formation that can all hit the same target is a thing of beauty. Knowing when to keep a formation and when to break it makes you a master of that ship.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Harpoon missiles specify that the condition is assigned after the attack is resolved, so it would be after the deal damage step and ship being removed if destroyed.

sorry, you lost me here. "after the deal damage step" means after step 7, so in step 8. "After the ship being removed if destroyed" is after step 10.

3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

And you can still fly in formation most of the time. But if you see an opponent with harpoon missiles, just like assault missiles in the past, you spread out.

True, and of course Harpoons need to take off first anyway. I'm more afraid that this might happen quite often. But then again if it really is that good against FSR we'd expect harpoons to become less frequent after FSR declines in popularity. So harpoons might be seen only temporarily, as long as FSR is popular too. Of course my own counter is that harpoons are too good and they could just remain in use because they are good against non-formations, too.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

sorry, you lost me here. "after the deal damage step" means after step 7, so in step 8. "After the ship being removed if destroyed" is after step 10.

I'm saying it's after everything. It's after the entire timing chart is completed.

Just now, VanderLegion said:

I'm saying it's after everything. It's after the entire timing chart is completed.

Ok, so after step 10. So with FSR Jess would probably die before the third damage splashes, meaning Rex survives. I'm really curious how this will play out. I already wanted to play imperial alpha strike, but this feels too strong.

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Not only is it disingenuous to call that an archetype on the same fundamental level as 'swarms', but yes, yes absolutely. Biggs being the way he is now causes many more problems.

But then again you do miss the point, entirely: whether or not Biggs needs a counter or nerf is not the question and just derailing.

But is Harpoon missiles the right way? Absolutely not.

1) So swarms should have plot armor because they are the more specialer archetype?

2) I didn't bring up nerfing Biggs, you did. Stop derailing your own thread.

3) It's not the right way because (see argument 1). Got it.

Have you considered how disruptive a harpooned TIE would be for your opponent? He's essentially donating a free dead man's switch to the TIE. If you don't fly in a tight cluster then there's a chance you get one shotted by the missile. That risk has been around for a looong time, so nothing new there.

But if they don't one shot the TIE? Oh boy. Now you can fly it right into their formation to block just like TIEs like to do. If they crit and/or kill you, then you're splashing damage onto the enemy squad, not your own.

The solution for swarms is to not fly in a tight bunch. The only swarm incentivized to do that is the Howlrunner swarm. You can do youngster and rage, you can do crackswarm. There are options beyond "I must fly in tight formation because that's the way my grand pappy flew it back in ought-12".

Biggs doesn't have a choice. Either fly in formation or be just an overpriced X-wing. It's a hard counter to Biggs. It's a hard counter to swarms if (and only if) you lack imagination. If you don't lack imagination, then it's actually a weapon you can use against your opponent if you survive the missile--which is a better prospect than getting shot at by any other modified 4 dice shot in the game.

11 minutes ago, Sekac said:

1) So swarms should have plot armor because they are the more specialer archetype?

Compared to Biggs? Yes, yes they do. Of course you'd rather adjust a single, widely hated ship than a general, formerly very popular and still crowd-drawing way of playing the game

12 minutes ago, Sekac said:

2) I didn't bring up nerfing Biggs, you did. Stop derailing your own thread.

Indirectly:

7 hours ago, Sekac said:

There shouldn't be a hard counter to the consensus most OP list?

Asking for a way to play against FSR does naturally bring up Biggs - because a ship/list can either be nerfed, or something else can be buffed.

14 minutes ago, Sekac said:

3) It's not the right way because (see argument 1). Got it.

Not only that, but also because Harpoons are a ridiculous form of complexity creep and ordinary power creep. The basically rereleased AM but cheaper, dealing more damage and keeping the TL. Those - next to the problem with swarms - are also reasons why Harpoons are not a well designed way to take on FSR.

So what is the best Huxpoon list? Hux in an Upsilon or a Lambda? TAPs or TIE/sf's? Deadeye Barons o/t Empire?

5 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

So what is the best Huxpoon list? Hux in an Upsilon or a Lambda? TAPs or TIE/sf's? Deadeye Barons o/t Empire?

forget hux, run ps11 aces @ ps10 with adaptability and harpoons instead of cruise. Just be aware vader will jump (if he wasn't there already) in target priority, given he will be handing out the crits most.

2 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

forget hux, run ps11 aces @ ps10 with adaptability and harpoons instead of cruise. Just be aware vader will jump (if he wasn't there already) in target priority, given he will be handing out the crits most.

"You will play as I want you to play."

Just now, Verlaine said:

"You will play as I want you to play."

barons then, possibly with deadeye to overcome the low ps not being able to get the target locks they want when they want.

16 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

So what is the best Huxpoon list? Hux in an Upsilon or a Lambda? TAPs or TIE/sf's? Deadeye Barons o/t Empire?

Why Hux? Just for the large number of tokens?

FD actively makes harpoon missiles worse by allowing the crits to be cancelled before the unblockable hit.

If you try to go with crew then I'd first try Kylo, he has the same trigger and also deals damage through a shield. Not that it's necessary

13 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Why Hux? Just for the large number of tokens?

FD actively makes harpoon missiles worse by allowing the crits to be cancelled before the unblockable hit.

But the harpoon always hits.

1 minute ago, Verlaine said:

But the harpoon always hits.

For a given value of always, sure. But is it worth the lambda upsilon firespray or deci you have to bring to tote him about?

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

For a given value of always, sure. But is it worth the lambda upsilon firespray or deci you have to bring to tote him about?

Just bring a suitcase?

9 hours ago, phild0 said:

1.5 years ago we all wanted better Ordnance.

Harpoon is better Ordnance. Cruise Missile is better Ordnance.

Why so much complaining?

Sometimes what we asking for is more than we could actually take. ;-)

Though I think the mechanic to go would be. Ordinance which does decent base damage, is one time use and adds a secondary effect. So shoot this thing is not a waste damage wise, while not totally annihilating your targets in an alpha strike, but bringing good secondary effects for a small price. This makes it all about the right timing to use those secondary weapon and makes them truly secondary.

Alas with all those 4 and 5 dice pieces, I think FFG missed this timing window. X-Wing 2.0 seems to be really the way to go from now on.

5 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I'm saying it's after everything. It's after the entire timing chart is completed.

It says : if this attack hits. not AFTER the attack. The hit substep is before the damage one.

However this entire mess of a card needs a faq before it hits the floor. Like for example, can you trigger all your conditions on one critical hit?

But back to the OP, I do not think this is the sky falling. You need very specific list building to get off multiple missiles, and in the list you presented, counter play is very possible. You telegraph your target immediately, and thus can play around it.

For others it might be a nice RNG element missile that will replace concussion missiles.

If you spend 12 points of your precious aces on owning one specific list, you are going to have a bad time at a tournament . In casual? Sure you might wreck that list with your specific list. Just like someone bringing a deci with Vader and gunner against your aces .

1) all the recent ordnance are a bit too good, too easy to roll a bunch of dice and multi-mod them. 4 red dice with not spending your TL is really really good, but it's also something we've seen before.

2) the actual Harpoon bit is really clunky in mechanics but fine in power level.

The bit I dislike on the card is the not spending your TL, not the awkwardness of doing some splash damage. Feels like you play it because it's A.N.Missile not because you want the splash.

19 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The bit I dislike on the card is the not spending your TL, not the awkwardness of doing some splash damage. Feels like you play it because it's A.N.Missile not because you want the splash.

I actually like that bit, because it's exactly what made the Assault Missiles nearly unplayable: You only play the Assault Missiles only for the splash, and thus it's absolutely useless when you bring it against anything that isn't a swarm that flies in formation (which they really don't have to do any more if they're not based around Howlrunner or Biggs, particularly since Swarm Leader). Harpoon Missile looks to be useful against everything, with the added bonus of adding splash damage.