So I've been watching a lot of TTS streams as of late and there's a timing issue that keeps bothering me.

Per the Rules Reference timing chart, "If no player has a conflict opportunity remaining when this step [3.1] is reached, advance to step 3.4. [Determine Imperial Favour]" In other words, if both players have declared or passed both of their potential conflicts, you go straight into the framework of determining Imperial Favour, and then onto the Fate Phase, which leaves no opportunity for other actions (character abilities, playing cards, etc.) This seems misplayed a lot in the games I've watched, so I'm wondering if I'm misunderstanding something here? Are players allowed to take "pre-con" Actions after all conflicts have been declared, or does that opportunity stop after the 4th conflict opportunity ends?

Edit: Just reread page 18 and noticed " After this action window, if no conflict opportunities remain, proceed to (3.4.)", which seems to clear up that there are post-conflict actions. However, the issue with the Fate Phase still stands in that your last opportunity to add fate to/reprieve a character is in the last window before Imperial Favour is determined, not at the beginning of the Phase. Not nearly as big of a deal, but still worth noting.

Additionally, I've seen a lot of streams playing as if there's an action window at the beginning of the Fate Phase. There isn't.

Again, per the chart:

4.1 Fate phase begins.

4.2 Discard characters with no fate.

4.3 Remove fate from characters.

ACTION WINDOW

4.5 Fate phase ends.

So playing Good Omen, or Reprieve, or sacrificing Vanguard Warrior, etc. to try and save a character from being discarded at the beginning of the Fate Phase are all illegal plays. More to the point, if the timing of the Conflict Phase ending works the way I understand it to, that means the last opportunity to use these "save" cards would be "pre-cons" before the final conflict, or as an action during the final conflict itself.

People will get better at the game. We only got the full official rules last week or so.

15 minutes ago, Sometimes Y said:

"If no player has a conflict opportunity remaining when this step [3.1] is reached, advance to step 3.4. [Determine Imperial Favour]"

Here's your fatal flaw.

You put [3.1] meaning you inferred this sentence was written about section 3.1 of the conflict phase flow chart.

It isn't.

It's written in section 3.2. You can tell because the next sub header is 3.2.1 and the preceding sub header is 3.2

which you don't get to until you get past the action window after 3.1, which is where you go back to after that final conflict. Then the action window, then 3.2 which, per your quote, is skipped.

So the way the TTS streamers have been playing it is correct. There is an action window after the final conflict, then it proceeds past the conflict declaration step to the end of the phase.

According the rules reference, there is an action window in between steps 3.1 and 3.2 that is always returned to after 3.3. It is then determined at that point after actions are made whether any conflicts are left.

15 minutes ago, Sometimes Y said:

If no player has a conflict opportunity remaining when this step [3.1] is reached, advance to step 3.4. [Determine Imperial Favour]"

That line is from step 3.2, not 3.1

18 minutes ago, Sometimes Y said:

So I've been watching a lot of TTS streams as of late and there's a timing issue that keeps bothering me.

Per the Rules Reference timing chart, "If no player has a conflict opportunity remaining when this step [3.1] is reached, advance to step 3.4. [Determine Imperial Favour]" In other words, if both players have declared or passed both of their potential conflicts, you go straight into the framework of determining Imperial Favour, and then onto the Fate Phase, which leaves no opportunity for other actions (character abilities, playing cards, etc.) This seems misplayed a lot in the games I've watched, so I'm wondering if I'm misunderstanding something here? Are players allowed to take "pre-con" Actions after all conflicts have been declared, or does that opportunity stop after the 4th conflict opportunity ends?

Edit: Just reread page 18 and noticed " After this action window, if no conflict opportunities remain, proceed to (3.4.)", which seems to clear up that there are post-conflict actions. However, the issue with the Fate Phase still stands in that your last opportunity to add fate to/reprieve a character is in the last window before Imperial Favour is determined, not at the beginning of the Phase. Not nearly as big of a deal, but still worth noting.

Additionally, I've seen a lot of streams playing as if there's an action window at the beginning of the Fate Phase. There isn't.

Again, per the chart:

4.1 Fate phase begins.

4.2 Discard characters with no fate.

4.3 Remove fate from characters.

ACTION WINDOW

4.5 Fate phase ends.

So playing Good Omen, or Reprieve, or sacrificing Vanguard Warrior, etc. to try and save a character from being discarded at the beginning of the Fate Phase are all illegal plays. More to the point, if the timing of the Conflict Phase ending works the way I understand it to, that means the last opportunity to use these "save" cards would be "pre-cons" before the final conflict, or as an action during the final conflict itself.

I think what you're seeing is more an informal using of the last action window in conflict phase blending into the start of the fate phase. actions such as reprieve or good omen should, legally, be played slightly earlier, but in a lot of games I've seen/played there is a lot of breaking of rules structure at the end point of the round.

Right you both are. I'm actually glad it works out this way, as opposed to what I initially assumed.

2 minutes ago, Sometimes Y said:

Right you both are. I'm actually glad it works out this way, as opposed to what I initially assumed.

It happens. It doesn't help that every game is very casual since everyone is still in that learning to play mode, making it harder to see the rules structure in an actual game. I also have a feeling everything after the last conflict will be a bit of a jumbled mess in most casual games anyway, where things are done out of order and can be confusing to a new player.

For sure. I'm coming from an AGOT 1.0 background which was chockfull of "moribund" timing issues that still haunt me to this day, so whenever I feel like something is off in regards to timing I tend to assume the worst.

Sorry for the thread necro but was just doing some research on this timing rule and this really bugs me.

I understand that this is how the action window is played out but... why?

As a player, you should be able to derive the intent and use of the card pretty easily.

With the current timing rules for fate phase, you end up having to do a double take (at the cards previously mentioned - Good Omen, or Reprieve, or sacrificing Vanguard Warrior) and go"Oh, it's not how I thought I should play the card. But why?".

Would really like an explanation of the intent on why the action window is at the END of a phase, and not the START of the phase as a normal game flow would lead you to believe.

Expectations for game clarity:

1. Phase starts
2. Action window starts
3. Action window ends
4. Phase resolves effects/game state
5. Phase ends

What it currently is:

1. Dynasty Phase - Action window at the Start
2. Draw Phase - Action window at the End
3. Conflict Phase - Action window at the Start
4. Fate Phase - Action window at the End
5. Regroup Phase - Action window at the Start

What is the goal here for the different timings?

9 hours ago, Kantorek said:

Expectations for game clarity:

1. Phase starts
2. Action window starts
3. Action window ends
4. Phase resolves effects/game state
5. Phase ends

What it currently is:

1. Dynasty Phase - Action window at the Start
2. Draw Phase - Action window at the End
3. Conflict Phase - Action window at the Start
4. Fate Phase - Action window at the End
5. Regroup Phase - Action window at the Start

What is the goal here for the different timings?

FFG must maximize rule fiddly-ness at all opportunities. If you can get through a turn without consulting a flowchart, they have not done their job.

Other examples (in my opinion):

1) Lose an honor at the end of combat if you have no defenders - This would be much easier to remember, and more thematic, if it were at the beginning of combat. At the end of combat you are already resolving a ton of effects (Rings, Breaking Provinces, reactions to winning, etc.) such that this frequently gets forgotten. It would be much simpler to say "I don't defend. I lose 1 honor".

2) Action window at the end of the draw phase - Why? Given the current card pool, I cannot fathom why this action phase exists. There is another action phase immediately after it with nothing in between.

3) Personally, I would like to see only 6 action phases per turn (not counting the conflicts themselves). The Dynasty Phase "Special action phase", one before each conflict, and one after the conflicts are over. The others seem to exist purely so that players can shout "wait wait wait, can we go back a step?" at each other.

Note: I genuinely like this game and have had a blast playing it. The number of things that can be forgotten / missed per turn is my one and only complaint, and it's a pretty minor one.

With respect, honor loss for unopposed conflicts cannot be at the beginning. There's a bevy of options to bring defenders into the conflict without declaring any. Conflict characters played from hand, Charge, recursion effects, Unicorn movement shenanigans, etc. It makes no sense to penalize players using these strategies just because it's easier for some people to remember losing an honor at the conflict beginning.

13 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

With respect, honor loss for unopposed conflicts cannot be at the beginning. There's a bevy of options to bring defenders into the conflict without declaring any. Conflict characters played from hand, Charge, recursion effects, Unicorn movement shenanigans, etc. It makes no sense to penalize players using these strategies just because it's easier for some people to remember losing an honor at the conflict beginning.

I realize this. But it doesn't make the rule any less fiddly.

Double post.

2 hours ago, Yogo Gohei said:

2) Action window at the end of the draw phase - Why? Given the current card pool, I cannot fathom why this action phase exists. There is another action phase immediately after it with nothing in between.

3) Personally, I would like to see only 6 action phases per turn (not counting the conflicts themselves). The Dynasty Phase "Special action phase", one before each conflict, and one after the conflicts are over. The others seem to exist purely so that players can shout "wait wait wait, can we go back a step?" at each other.

Agree with these 100%.

This is my first FFG game. What's the track record for FFG on altering rules/timing based on first few months of play/feedback? Do you think the timing will be more smoothed out later after release or do you think we'll be stuck with this clunkiness for the foreseeable future?

I've found the phases to be needlessly complicated, but it's likely because FFG has learned from prior mistakes. The only phase that could use a minor fix for clarity is the conflict phase.

1. Start of Phase
2. Action Opportunity
3. Declare Conflicts
   1. Resolve Conflict
   2. Action Opportunity
   3. Repeat three times
4. End Phase

On 15/8/2017 at 9:58 PM, RandomJC said:

I think what you're seeing is more an informal using of the last action window in conflict phase blending into the start of the fate phase. actions such as reprieve or good omen should, legally, be played slightly earlier, but in a lot of games I've seen/played there is a lot of breaking of rules structure at the end point of the round.

Then, if I understand this correctly, you will be waiting to use Good Omen on the last posible moment. Because you are the first player, your opponent has the last chance to declare a conflict. If he pases, he is denying you completely the opportunity to play it?

5 hours ago, Mirumoto Shiroiken said:

I've found the phases to be needlessly complicated, but it's likely because FFG has learned from prior mistakes. The only phase that could use a minor fix for clarity is the conflict phase.

1. Start of Phase
2. Action Opportunity
3. Declare Conflicts
   1. Resolve Conflict
   2. Action Opportunity
   3. Repeat three times
4. End Phase

So is this actually true? There is an action opportunity before the declaration of a conflict?

If so that makes a lot more sense for when I can play stuff that would ready a character so I can actually declare a conflict.

Yes, there is an action window before the first opportunity to declare conflict, and one after each conflict opportunity, regardless of whether a conflict actually happened.

::face palm::

I am an idiot - I see now.. I have been reading that timing completely wrong.

I for some reason assumed that the action window during the conflict phase (after 3.1) was only for declaring a conflict , but in actuality its just stating that there is an Action Window, but that if AFTER the action window if there are no conflicts left to be declared, skip to step 3.4.

So now with the correct understanding of the timing, a full Conflict phase would play out like this if given a full 4 conflicts to declare:

1. Start of Conflict Phase
2. Action Opportunity
3. Declare Conflict 1a
4. Resolve Conflict 1a
5. Action Opportunity
6. Declare Conflict 1b
7. Resolve Conflict 1b
8. Action Opportunity
9. Declare Conflict 2a
10. Resolve Conflict 2a
11. Action Opportunity
12. Declare Conflict 2b
13. Resolve Conflict 2b
14. Action Opportunity
15. No conflicts to declare
16. Glory Count / Imperial Favor
17. End Phase

If I wanted to sac my Vengeful Warrior to add Fate to a character before the Fate phase begins, I would have the opportunity to do so in step 14.

This actually makes a lot more sense now, and eases some of my frustration brought up from in my original comment.

Thanks everyone for talking (typing?) me through the timing clarifications. You're the best.

Yeah, that's how it plays out. If a player passes on a conflict opportunity in step 3, 6, 9 or 12, just skip step 4, 7, 10 or 13 and go straight to step 5, 8, 11 or 14.

You're welcome.

On 9/11/2017 at 8:45 PM, Mon no Oni said:

Then, if I understand this correctly, you will be waiting to use Good Omen on the last posible moment. Because you are the first player, your opponent has the last chance to declare a conflict. If he pases, he is denying you completely the opportunity to play it?

Someone pointed this up earlier, but no. There is an action window after that point, it occurs right before the game checks for any more conflicts.