I have not yet seen this squad in the wild, for some reason, but I've done a few test games where I play both sides of the matchup. I've drawn a few conclusions which I thought it might be useful to share, but I also wanted go get opinions from others, whether they've had real-life experience with or against the list or not. I've got nothing really profound, here, this is largely an assortment of things to think about so you're not going into the matchup completely cold.

Asteroid placement: I've found that the middle-of-board-triangle is a good place to start. If you move to put your ships on the far side of the rocks from the incoming Cruise Missile carriers, the number of fast moves available is usually limited, and may take an extra turn to set up a lane that allows a 3 or 4 speed maneuver to be used for a quality launch. Banks or turns will usually need to be used to move around or through the field, and can give your ships opportunities to have an opening engagement without the huge disadvantage of a coordinated cruise missile strike against you.

Initial approach:

Beware that the PS11s carrying these cruise missiles are very strong at close range, so you always need to be mindful of moves that are safe from a cruise missile run but leave you vulnerable to close range attack. The ideal move will limit vulnerability to both, but we all know that's not always possible. Unless you have a very powerful tank that can absorb 1-2 Cruise Missile attacks, I think that the short range exchange is still preferrable to the a mid or long range exchange because at least you're on equal terms. This is squad specific, of course.

Strategy for subsequent turns:

Your mid and late game strategy will depend on how much damage you've received and how much the opposing squad has sold out to get a powerful alpha. If they have a a 3rd ship as Cruise Missile carrier, with stripped down Vader and Quickdraw, your ideal opening scenario might be to simply lose one ship and no more, then rely on your long-term build to overpower compromised alpha builds over time. If you're playing against fuller Quickdraw and Vader builds with a lightweight 3rd ship like Pure Sabacc or Omega Leader, the extra damage you take during the initial engagement is harder to come back from, because the opposing squads long game will be stronger. This may require more conservative initial play to weather or avoid the alpha strike and then start playing the game on your terms.

Specific Considerations:

Vader is special, in that with Engine Upgrade he can change directions and still get a lock to fire the Cruise Missile. He has more options for moving through or around the asteroids because of this, but his missile will not be Focus modified and it will leave him wothlut modifications for defense. Depending on your squad composition, you can try to take advantage of this by trying to meet Vader head on. The quality of this strategy depends on how well your squad matches up against the the other elements in the opposing squad.

Quickdraw also has special considerations. Her single action and lack of white 3-speed turns make an opening Cruise Missile shot a bit less fearsome than Vader's (mitigated if Guidance Chips is chosen instead of Lightweight Frame), but she's better on the follow-up. A 3-sloop combined with a Focus action thanks to Pattern Analyzer gives her a strong 4-dice attack on a turnaround move. It might not instill the same fear that a double-modified 5-dice attack does, but it's still quite strong.

Any thoughts here? Am I way off base? Am I missing something?

i've yet to see this myself as well, even though i hear so much terror about it. Kinda want to try it, but then again i usually avoid metawing.

Wouldn't this be potentially similar to dealing with x7's?

You know that the opponent is going to need to run a fast move if they want to use their ordnance at maximum effect. In a lot of cases, if they're planning on using a Cruise Missile alpha strike then in order to stay on target, they'll be looking at 3 banks 3, 4 5 straights.

If you can adjust your approach so that some of these potential moves are blocked off by asteroids or debris, and/or set up a block into one of the other positions (3 straight) then you should be able to protect yourself somewhat. Blocking is always important against higher PS ships anyway, but running Cruise means than these aces will be telegraphing moves they want to take.

Advanced Sensors on Vader or Quickdraw will make them a bit trickier to predict, but if they're repositioning prior to their move then they're not getting the target lock for their Cruise Missiles.

I've faced it a couple times, flown by a guy who's been using Vader plus Aces basically since Day One. Even barring the devastation that is the Cruise Missile alpha strike, it's a tough list in the hands of a competent player. I am barely competent, and he just ate my Scum Toolbox. I believe he had FCS and Targeting Synchronizer on QD, which was just brutal.

In the first game, I sent a TorpBoat in as bait and flanked through the asteroids with...whoever else I was flying. The Cruise Missiles took the Scout down to one hull on that first salvo, so I sacrificed him to QD's revenge shot and used a Plasma to strip his shields. Then I managed to gum things up with lots of blocking as he tried to maneuver between my shops and the rocks. But it was never a contest.

I tried a more flanking approach with all of my ships in the second game, but I couldn't bait him back into the rocks. He guessed perfectly when I decided to come through the rocks, and the Cruisers again ate half my list before I had a shot.

So I'd say that your analysis is pretty well spot on.

16 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

I've faced it a couple times, flown by a guy who's been using Vader plus Aces basically since Day One. Even barring the devastation that is the Cruise Missile alpha strike, it's a tough list in the hands of a competent player. I am barely competent, and he just ate my Scum Toolbox. I believe he had FCS and Targeting Synchronizer on QD, which was just brutal.

In the first game, I sent a TorpBoat in as bait and flanked through the asteroids with...whoever else I was flying. The Cruise Missiles took the Scout down to one hull on that first salvo, so I sacrificed him to QD's revenge shot and used a Plasma to strip his shields. Then I managed to gum things up with lots of blocking as he tried to maneuver between my shops and the rocks. But it was never a contest.

I tried a more flanking approach with all of my ships in the second game, but I couldn't bait him back into the rocks. He guessed perfectly when I decided to come through the rocks, and the Cruisers again ate half my list before I had a shot.

So I'd say that your analysis is pretty well spot on.

Thanks! Actual experience is always very valuable.

16 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Wouldn't this be potentially similar to dealing with x7's?

You know that the opponent is going to need to run a fast move if they want to use their ordnance at maximum effect. In a lot of cases, if they're planning on using a Cruise Missile alpha strike then in order to stay on target, they'll be looking at 3 banks 3, 4 5 straights.

Its sort of like x7s, but the results if failure are much more severe, whereas x7s don't hit that hard by comparison, theircfpllowup is much stronger. Related skills, certainly.

After having played against a cruise missile list, I would observe that the threat of Vader with a cruise missile during the "alpha" strike is real, but that a "beta strike" is just as dangerous. In a game I played, instead of focusing on the alpha strike, my opponent kept the missile for Vader's k-turn to finish off my wounded ship. Vader has a 4 k-turn, which usually lowers his offensive potential, but with a cruise missile and guidance chip, that round can still lead to some harsh punishment.

I've had good luck with double regen against them barring a complete failure of green dice, but I haven't yet managed to stop them from getting the missiles off. Preventing double-mods is the best I can do, and they usually still get full hits with TL and chips. Usually lose Corran or Poe right away, then crawl back over the next hour for a narrow win.

I played against this once (I had Rey/Poe at the time) when the list first surfaced and lost (but not on the alpha). Making the alpha strike list fly is crucial, as is getting into Range 1 on turns that have the potential for a full strike (in this case, 3 Cruise Missiles). I used board edges, slow-rolling, and the Rule of 11™ to make sure Rey was in Range 1 and Poe was at Range 3 behind a rock for the opening engagement. My opponent opted to try the full alpha at Poe, who used all his tricks to survive at 1 Hull. Unfortunately, I didn't quite do enough damage in return. Even with Rey in good shape for a couple turns, at the end of the day they're still PS11 Aces.

I'm thinking Cruse-Aces is like Tripple-Deadeye-Scruggs; they are lions on paper, but rarely sighted in the wild. ?

It's a list you have to out think and theres a truck load to keep track of. I played vs a derivative with prockets on the inquis with a random toolbox attani list i built in 10 minutes(ndru,cobra,fenn,z95 blocker) , it was my opponents 1st time out with the list but he is near exclusively an imp player and usually at the pointy end of our tournaments.

Ended up doing some really erratic flying that wrong footed my opponent (who the heck flies ndru in formation for 2 turns!?!) Along with splitting between slow rolls, donut dives, and target switches i (somehow) managed to keep the cruise missiles from being fired all game. Ended up losing to a 1 health QD after the bump damage crit ended fen.....

Well done!

I agree it's very much a pilot's list - unlike torpedo jumpmasters, or similar, you need to line up that speed 4 'attack run' to really get your money's worth.

My one attempt playing them was essentially a game of "rule of 11, the musical" - I got lucky and the bomber and TIE sf landed a gnat's wing outside of range 3, whilst vader (who'd done a speed 5 straight) was in range to fire, but didn't get a one-shot kill and got focus-fired for his troubles.

However you chose to set up, I'd suggest you want a maximum speed close to close range - you want to make it as hard as possible for your opponent to mass-launch his missiles, so deploying with that in mind sounds best. With the PS11 missiles deploying after you (probably) you can't shape the match-up, but if you set up on one flank pointed up-board, they'll probably take the bait - if they didn't think they could joust with you and win with high PS missiles they'd have taken something else).

If they don't, then regardless, the same tactics apply - they just take longer...

• Assuming your opponent wants a speed 4 straight 'firing run', and you point at him and do a speed 4 straight yourself, he only ends up with a viable missile launch (range 2-3) if you start at just under range 5 apart.
• Under the same situation, if you start at just under range 6 apart and slam on the brakes (speed 1 forward or stop), he ends up outside range 3 and also has no shot.
• Hence in a straight joust, the 'danger zone' is a fairly hard to judge range 5-6 bracket.
• Obviously if he's coming in at an angle relative to you, or you're running away (turreted or multi-arc ships) then this gets more complex

Generally, it's all about playing unexpected tricks with speed.

20 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Unless you have a very powerful tank that can absorb 1-2 Cruise Missile attacks, I think that the short range exchange is still preferrable to the a mid or long range exchange because at least you're on equal terms. This is squad specific, of course.

I'd agree. Most tokened-up ships (short of the TIE fighter and Z-95) can probably take a single cruise missile hit and not die, but very few things will survive two. The question is whether you have enough metal in your squad to take the loss and keep going (pegging cruise missiles into a swarm strikes me as a losing proposition, for example).

Assuming you're looking at Vader & Quickdraw, my recommendation for the first target is probably Vader - yes, a TIE advanced is fairly tough, but with Lightweight Frame a TIE/sf isn't far behind, it has an extra shield, and I'd rather wait to trigger quickdraw's 'free shots' until after the opening salvo where one extra shot is potentially going to take out something wounded before it shoots. Plus, if I had to pick, Vader is generally the one I least want to face late game.

If facing Pure Sabbac......kill him first. You can stop the cruise missiles firing (hopefully!) with canny flying, but only by flying into range 1 of the TIE striker's Hadokencannon - and he's low enough pilot skill that he can potentially block aces from doing that. It's why I'm wondering if a mix of Proton Rockets and Cruise Missiles might be effective since they cover one another's blind spots.

19 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

If you can adjust your approach so that some of these potential moves are blocked off by asteroids or debris, and/or set up a block into one of the other positions (3 straight) then you should be able to protect yourself somewhat. Blocking is always important against higher PS ships anyway, but running Cruise means than these aces will be telegraphing moves they want to take.

Big debris is good against Vader - a TIE advanced has real trouble shedding stress once it picks it up - but Quickdraw (if she's packing pattern analyser) can almost ignore it. Still, an extra green die on a shot is nothing to sneer at!

Certainly avoiding offering a good straight 'attack run' is key, so as noted, act like you would against TIE/x7 defenders - avoid offering long, straight channels through obstacles if you can.

I fly them,

Sometimes with Quizzy in place of Backdraft and without engine on Vader.

It tears most things down but, FSR laughs at it, as does DenNym and tanky lists (that a friend likes to play) like Double-Ghost - can eat the alpha and scoot away to TLT spam Vader, or rush in and double-ABT (variant) something.
It relies 100% on your getting your approach right, if you fail then everything crumbles.

The rule of 11, Turn 0, etc. etc.

I've not faced the list myself but I did recently play against a Vaksai cruise missile list (proxied by a friend) that had Talonbane and Hel at PS9.

My thinking and strategy have thus far been pretty much what you've written above. TBC is also a PITA for that R1 exchange if you don't want to eat those cruise missiles BUT it's still probably more preferable to not getting a R1 shot and eating missiles...

Creating a rock field and drawing your opponent into it severely limits their options for getting that 4 straight off. High PS aces with re position don't usually have a hard time navigating the rocks but it does limit the cruise missile shots or at least delay them. The Scum list I faced has a big difference in Glitterstim. It allows a different play style with the missiles as they can TL then K-turn next turn, pop glitterstim and have a fully modded 5 dice attack. Similar in theory to Quickdraws s-loop and shoot but allows for an extra dice. Being straight though it does make it more predictable and a little easier to avoid than QD.

As far as your thoughts on specifically the Imp cruise build goes; not sure I can really add anything useful to what you've already covered.

In terms of tanking, hard counters etc. I can see cards like Black One and Countermeasures being good choices if you expect this to be heavy in your local meta. Maybe we'll start hearing cries of "nerf Expert Handling!" soon if this list becomes a menace

13 minutes ago, Smutpedler said:

In terms of tanking, hard counters etc. I can see cards like Black One and Countermeasures being good choices if you expect this to be heavy in your local meta. Maybe we'll start hearing cries of "nerf Expert Handling!" soon if this list becomes a menace

indeed. Poe Dameron's ability to (theoretically) shed two target locks a turn is nasty as **** against a missile-laden opponent (less useful against PS10+, but then being able to boost and barrel roll like a drunken fruitbat is valuable in and of itself).

12 minutes ago, Smutpedler said:

In terms of tanking, hard counters etc. I can see cards like Black One and Countermeasures being good choices if you expect this to be heavy in your local meta. Maybe we'll start hearing cries of "nerf Expert Handling!" soon if this list becomes a menace

I think Expert Handling will not be so good against it, because it has to do its thing before the PS 11s. Countermeasures is certainly significant, though, because it takes a big chunk of offense away.

2 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

indeed. Poe Dameron's ability to (theoretically) shed two target locks a turn is nasty as **** against a missile-laden opponent (less useful against PS10+, but then being able to boost and barrel roll like a drunken fruitbat is valuable in and of itself).

VI Poe doesn't seem to be seen too much these days so, yeah, there is that I guess if used correctly you can draw someone through a rock field and they'd (most likely) try to set the TL's up for when they can get the shot off and get an extra mod which could allow you to pull all sorts of "chase me!" shenanigans. Situational, of course.

3 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think Expert Handling will not be so good against it, because it has to do its thing before the PS 11s. Countermeasures is certainly significant, though, because it takes a big chunk of offense away.

To be fair; I was being tongue in cheek with EH but you COULD get use out of it in the same situation as I described just above. Maybe not the best spend of 2 points when you consider the overall meta but... maybe in some outlier cases it could be useful...

i have been running multiple variants of this since cruise missiles came out. Here are my thoughts.

VADER NEEDS ENGINE!!!!

the 3rd ship needs to be somewhat of a threat (OL, VI Duchess, VI Sabacc, TLT Double Edge with trick shot)

and in my experience Cruise Missiles can be as much of a dogfighting missile as it is an alpha strike. For example if you rush me and we end up range one I will happily 4k the next turn with Vader to pop the 5 dice cruise, and I will happily do the 3 sloop with QD to do the same. Because both of them are capable of 4 hits when range one which is the same as me popping a speed 3 cruise.

Matchups that have given me fits, Asajj, Revenge Chewie (admittedly that was my fault for not double checking the card text and assuming Chewie only got one revenge shot and saying yeah Vader can tank 2 shots from Chewie...... Yeah not 3), Bobanym, and Fur ship rebel.

Just my humble feedback.

Vader does need engine. Every time i have fielded him w/o it he gets picked off way too easy and finds it difficult to get back in the fight w/o a kturn, which leaves him open.

Also the Denym combo doesnt like this, i dont know why you'd say they wouldnt care. Either he splits up to try and save Nym (which is in your favor to begin with 3v1) from the Alpha, or Nym goes in with Dengar and gets obliterated. Dengar is strong, but not 3v1 strong (especially against higher PS repositionings and a revengeshot). Denym suffers from the same flaw no matter who its facing: Nym is squishy and has to dive people to be effective.

The only matchup i'd say is bulky enough to give this problems is triple jumps or doubleghost. Doubleghost seems kinda dead, havnt seen that in eons, but unless that faq is true triple jumps is and always will be a thing.