1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

True in chronology but not in effect. ATS and TLT were both anti-Falcon/PWT measures. TLT didn't really touch the ATS ships. It's like you're calling them Rock & Paper, when they're just different types of Rock.

If you look at that pilots table I shared it's pretty clear. Pre-ATS there was just a TON of PWT ships, when ATS came out they got cut back though the strongest ones stayed in there, then TLT showed up and just cut them down almost overnight. Wave 7 hit the meta like a wrecking ball and TLT/Palp hammered down the jousters and the fat turrets.

It's funny, in that wave 6 to wave 7 era, I definitely remember a few huge Vassal and livecasted games where there was this whole "It's finally on ... autothrusters versus TLT! Who's cuisine shall reign supreme!" There was one huge game where Aaron Bonar ( @KineticOperator) had triple ATS interceptors versus a quad TLT list, and Vassal was collectively holding its breath wondering if TLT was going to be the thing that ended the Autothrusters meta threat.

EDIT: The Interceptors won IIRC and we did reach the conclusion you (and the data) came too really quickly though, which was that TLT couldn't really touch ATS.

4 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

No, I'm not interested in casual.

That, young Skywalker, is why you fail.

4 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

No, I'm not interested in casual.

dang x1

4 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

No, I'm not interested in casual.

dang x2

3 hours ago, Bolshevik65 said:

Dogfighting and in some respects the models themselves seem irrelevant.

The models have always been irrelevant. they're literally the one part of the game which is entirely unneccesary other than for thematic or aesthetic purposes. Of course, the same can be said for pretty much every tabletop miniatures game out there...

"Power Curve"

1 hour ago, sozin said:

It's funny, in that wave 6 to wave 7 era, I definitely remember a few huge Vassal and livecasted games where there was this whole "It's finally on ... autothrusters versus TLT! Who's cuisine shall reign supreme!" There was one huge game where Aaron Bonar ( @KineticOperator) had triple ATS interceptors versus a quad TLT list, and Vassal was collectively holding its breath wondering if TLT was going to be the thing that ended the Autothrusters meta threat.

EDIT: The Interceptors won IIRC and we did reach the conclusion you (and the data) came too really quickly though, which was that TLT couldn't really touch ATS.

Back in that era I ran r4 agromech on my TLTs to punch through autothrusters and it was still a narrow thing requiring blocks and carefully planned killboxes to make it work - Autothrusters is that good.

This succinctly summarizes the major design problems/power creep that hit the game, nicely done.

It's funny, in an effort to make the game not rock-paper-scissors by letting autothrusters only work against turrets, they accidentally made untouchable arc dodgers which were a huge problem themselves. I wonder what the world where autothrusters only works out of arc looks like.

17 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Also the discussion of X-wing forums, although you are missing Whisper, he had a lot of hate back in the day.

Echo was the catalyst, Whisper was the beneficiary. Specifically, Echo's ability to be very nearly anywhere on a quantum basis helped inspire the rise of fat turrets, Whisper, and PS 9+.

8 hours ago, sozin said:

It's funny, in that wave 6 to wave 7 era, I definitely remember a few huge Vassal and livecasted games where there was this whole "It's finally on ... autothrusters versus TLT! Who's cuisine shall reign supreme!" There was one huge game where Aaron Bonar ( @KineticOperator) had triple ATS interceptors versus a quad TLT list, and Vassal was collectively holding its breath wondering if TLT was going to be the thing that ended the Autothrusters meta threat.

EDIT: The Interceptors won IIRC and we did reach the conclusion you (and the data) came too really quickly though, which was that TLT couldn't really touch ATS.

I remember the general TLT vs Autos battle for supremacy at the time and also that exact game - I don't have the file anymore but I do remember watching the game and thinking that Aaron got very fortune on a number of naked green rolls against the Quad TLTs to keep his ships alive longer than they should have. For mine - Matt should have won that match more often than not.

Point to note on that match was Matt was rolling the Rebel Control version of Quad TLTs - Stresshog and an Ion Bomb.

15 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

FFG really have been **** for a long time haven't they.

It's why I've broadly stopped complaining. It's ****. It's going to stay ****. In fact it's highly likely that it's going to get more **** in future, not less ****. If you can accept all that then carry on playing.

Eh, not really

No matter how much stupid **** they've introduced, the game is still in INFINETLY better shape than wave ******* five, ie the phantom v fat turret dice ps race and point fortress fest

Actually found the game to be far more enjoyable post wave 7 outside the obvious problems with the jm5k

38 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Eh, not really

No matter how much stupid **** they've introduced, the game is still in INFINETLY better shape than wave ******* five, ie the phantom v fat turret dice ps race and point fortress fest

Actually found the game to be far more enjoyable post wave 7 outside the obvious problems with the jm5k

This,

I can actually put lower ps ships on the board and feel good about it. (even getting hard into valen ruder right now)

Two years ago if my ship did not start at ps 8 or 9 and then have VI then their was not point in playing it.

Believe it or not less soontir's and Whispers on the board have really opened up the non arc dodger fixed arc ships, at least for me.

10 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

The models have always been irrelevant. they're literally the one part of the game which is entirely unneccesary other than for thematic or aesthetic purposes. Of course, the same can be said for pretty much every tabletop miniatures game out there...

Yes that's right of course. It's the models that give it the link to Star Wars though, if we used blocks of wood then there would be no connection to Star Wars at all.

Given that it's the models which are the Star Wars link, as the more obscure ships become more dominant the cinematic ships become more irrelevant. For all the connection the game then has with Star Wars we may as well be using blocks of wood.

That's just a personal view of course. I don't recall Serissu, Viktor Hel (whoever they're supposed to be) or Mindlink etc, etc being anything to do with any Star Wars film I've ever seen and I don't think any member of the public watching them fight K Wings and E Wings would recognise it as Star Wars game in any shape or form. But if that's what gamers enjoy I'm not going to knock it. Nobody set me up as arbiter of what folks can play. I just think the loosening of any visible connection with Star Wars, the power creep and increasing complexity is driving a lot of the original players away from the game. But as long as there are sufficient sales of the newer ships and new players replacing those that leave IE "churn" I don't think FFG will be too worried.

9 minutes ago, Bolshevik65 said:

Yes that's right of course. It's the models that give it the link to Star Wars though, if we used blocks of wood then there would be no connection to Star Wars at all.

Given that it's the models which are the Star Wars link, as the more obscure ships become more dominant the cinematic ships become more irrelevant. For all the connection the game then has with Star Wars we may as well be using blocks of wood.

That's just a personal view of course. I don't recall Serissu, Viktor Hel (whoever they're supposed to be) or Mindlink etc, etc being anything to do with any Star Wars film I've ever seen and I don't think any member of the public watching them fight K Wings and E Wings would recognise it as Star Wars game in any shape or form. But if that's what gamers enjoy I'm not going to knock it. Nobody set me up as arbiter of what folks can play. I just think the loosening of any visible connection with Star Wars, the power creep and increasing complexity is driving a lot of the original players away from the game. But as long as there is sufficient sales of the newer ships and new players replacing those that leave IE"churn" I don't think FFG will be too worried.

Any tie looks like starwars...

I have actually had more engagement at my local store with people coming up to ask me questions about the more obscure ships and their backgroud then i ever did with a tie fighter or x-wing on the board. Maybe thats just my local store.

The other thing to remember is a bunch of these new ships were in rebels in some way and people who are into starwars do recognize them from that.

15 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Any tie looks like starwars...

I have actually had more engagement at my local store with people coming up to ask me questions about the more obscure ships and their backgroud then i ever did with a tie fighter or x-wing on the board. Maybe thats just my local store.

The other thing to remember is a bunch of these new ships were in rebels in some way and people who are into starwars do recognize them from that.

I think Joe Public has watched the films but has probably never even heard of Rebels or any of the books.

Personally I've only ever watched the films and seen half an episode of Rebels. I'll be the first to admit half an episode isn't long enough to make a proper judgement but what I did see looked childish with stormtroopers even worse than the films just coming across as irritating clowns. I didn't bother with it after that, I was in my late 40s then and not interested in cartoons, I still aren't. I've an open mind though, if it came on again I'd give it a proper go, maybe I missed out on something good. It was only available on Sky TV here when I saw it and not well publicised.

10 minutes ago, Bolshevik65 said:

Double post.

2 hours ago, Bolshevik65 said:

I think Joe Public has watched the films but has probably never even heard of Rebels or any of the books.

Personally I've only ever watched the films and seen half an episode of Rebels. I'll be the first to admit half an episode isn't long enough to make a proper judgement but what I did see looked childish with stormtroopers even worse than the films just coming across as irritating clowns. I didn't bother with it after that, I was in my late 40s then and not interested in cartoons, I still aren't. I've an open mind though, if it came on again I'd give it a proper go, maybe I missed out on something good. It was only available on Sky TV here when I saw it and not well publicised.

Not sure why you think "joe Public" has not heard of a prime time TV show that with 1-2million people watching each episode with over 6million paid VOD downloads... just because you dont like it does not mean no one has heard of it. if you are in anyways starwars you have seen it. Further more it is extremely popular in the young boys demographic (2016 finally had the heights rating of all shows in that demo), you would think that would be a target market for FFG with the franchise?

So believe it or not stuff like the ghost, tie advanced prototype, defender, shadowcaster, and protectorate to name a few are mainstream starwars ships. **** even sabins tie. I am sure young boys everywhere are pretty pumped to play as fen rau the badass mandalorian.

I am 33 and watched the series, very much enjoyed season 3 had allot off info that pertains to rogue one and wish i watched the season before the movie.

And yes some ships in x-wing are more obscure, but for people like me who eat up all the extended stuff its pretty exciting to have some of that stuff in the game.

Finally with the amount of complaints that we have hear about biggs, there must be an x-wing on every table?

5 hours ago, Icelom said:

Not sure why you think "joe Public" has not heard of a prime time TV show that with 1-2million people watching each episode with over 6million paid VOD downloads... just because you dont like it does not mean no one has heard of it. if you are in anyways starwars you have seen it. Further more it is extremely popular in the young boys demographic (2016 finally had the heights rating of all shows in that demo), you would think that would be a target market for FFG with the franchise?

So believe it or not stuff like the ghost, tie advanced prototype, defender, shadowcaster, and protectorate to name a few are mainstream starwars ships. **** even sabins tie. I am sure young boys everywhere are pretty pumped to play as fen rau the badass mandalorian.

I am 33 and watched the series, very much enjoyed season 3 had allot off info that pertains to rogue one and wish i watched the season before the movie.

And yes some ships in x-wing are more obscure, but for people like me who eat up all the extended stuff its pretty exciting to have some of that stuff in the game.

Finally with the amount of complaints that we have hear about biggs, there must be an x-wing on every table?

To be fair I never said just because I don't like it nobody had heard of it. I'm not sure where you are in the world but here in a northern English city if I was to go into one of the main streets and do a random survey, asking members of the public "Have you heard of Scooby Doo?" I think the answer most of the time would be "Yes". "Blue Peter?" I'd expect mostly "Yes" again. "Star Wars Rebels?" I'd expect "No" nine times out of ten.

I think we are talking about different demographics here. You're talking about young lads who may already have an interest, I'm talking about the public in general who are as likely to think Fen Rau is a Chinese meal rather than a Star Wars character though they probably have seen at least one Star Wars film.

Give Rebels a try. I am 45 years old and enjoyed it. And I am quite "Old school". Some chapters are really good. Others not so much but invest 2 or 3 hours of your spare time to this.

Series 1 of Rebels was definitely for kids, I'm enjoying Series 2 a lot more.

13 hours ago, Bolshevik65 said:

I think Joe Public has watched the films but has probably never even heard of Rebels or any of the books.

Personally I've only ever watched the films and seen half an episode of Rebels. I'll be the first to admit half an episode isn't long enough to make a proper judgement but what I did see looked childish with stormtroopers even worse than the films just coming across as irritating clowns. I didn't bother with it after that, I was in my late 40s then and not interested in cartoons, I still aren't. I've an open mind though, if it came on again I'd give it a proper go, maybe I missed out on something good. It was only available on Sky TV here when I saw it and not well publicised.

Both my wife and me are in our late 40's and we really enjoy the show. There are definitely adult themes, and it gets more adult the farther along the storyline gets. We can't wait to watch the final season. Thrawn coming hard after the Rebels is getting pretty exciting.