2 hours ago, Lightrock said:

It falls on deaf ears mostly because contrary to what you say, NPE and power level are very closely linked. For starters, since "NPE" is by definition based entirely on the mental/emotional state of one (or both) of the players during and after the game, it makes a massive difference whether the player in question won or lost the game (and if he lost - whether he got wrecked and never had much chance to begin with or if he did put up up a fight and the game was close). Saying that NPE and power level have nothing to do with each other is essentially claiming that winning or losing makes no difference to how you feel. If that's true for you, you're a rare bird indeed.

Secondly, as you pointed out yourself, power level affects popularity enormously. That's the difference between having to face a certain list in almost every tournament, sometimes multiple times, and having to face it every once in a while - usually as a curiosity and played by one of those guys who care less about winning and more about playing something "original" or "odd". Again, since NPE is all about the emotional state of the player, I'm reasonably sure you're going to be far more aggravated in the former case than the latter, no matter how "objectively" unfun the list might be to play against in a vacuum.

And yet winning and losing does make no difference, so long as it was an enjoyable hour. And I'm not such a rare bird, there's plenty of us!

2 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

I have the feelings that Empire players in this forum are way more whiney and scared to change than the ones you actually find on the mats

This matches my experience locally, where Empire players seem largely unfazed other than a little good-natured griping. They're still playing Imperial, and they're doing okay. I'm not the most plugged in player to my wider local meta, but I haven't seen a lot of doom and gloom.

I think it's probably fair that the style of play favoured by Imperials is naturally superior and more interesting than that used by inferior factions. Imperials players, being used to a higher standard, are therefore more likely to spot when those standards are slipping.

I guess we need to cut the Scum and Rebel players some slack - we can't really expect the unwashed masses to understand or appreciate such matters.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And yet winning and losing does make no difference, so long as it was an enjoyable hour. And I'm not such a rare bird, there's plenty of us!

As many people pointed out, "enjoyable" is way too subjective to be a valid yardstick for measuring whether any given expansion is well designed or not. I think Nym's design is quite bad actually and I understand why most people don't like to play against him. For me the problem lies in the fact that Nym casually ignores many core aspects of the game, which hurts it's very foundation - making decisions based on the expected outcome and the predicted decisions of the opponent.

When you get down to it, a viable way to fly Nym is to simply rush him right at the enemy, with little to no regard what his expected movement is. If Nym goes past the enemy - great, you put a bomblet right on top of him. You failed to make it through and bumped? No problem, just drop a bomblet in front of him. Didn't bump? Well, that's a bummer, but if you're remotely competent he's probably in range of a bomblet anyway and then you just barrel out of arc. And if you REALLY can't do that either, well, you just use autoblaster and exchange damage - you're likely to come out on top anyway. Not caring about bumps, stress, obstacles and - to some extent - expected enemy maneuvers totally guts the very foundation of the game and drastically lowers the skill level necessary to be successful. The result will often be what people call "NPE" - frustration and the general sense of disappointment with the way the game is played. But "NPE", on top of being very subjective, is merely a side effect rather than the core of the problem. The problem is that we now have a ship in the game that is just... stupid, for lack of a better word. The difference between us is that I don't think it's a major problem as long as the stupid ship has many bad matchups and people eventually stop playing it once they realize they're not winning with it. If on the other hand it becomes a major pillar of the meta, we're gonna have a serious problem.

I fear that often enough NPE can be translated to "gave me a sad." Backed up by nebulous "people," "lots of people," "so many others," etc... unqualified and unquantified, in order to obfuscate the fact that it's all about the person complaining. Are you entitled for something in the game to give you a sad, entitled to how anything makes you feel? Absolutely. That said, NPE is used as a megaphone, to project that it's not just about you, but really it is. Everyone feels differently about everything*. Own your feelings, it helps to process them. Ask the right questions and even this forum can be helpful, occasionally.

There’s an entire thread on how to beat Nym, some nuggets of wisdom in there for every faction.

*Excepting, of course, the universally beloved game Calvinball.

1 hour ago, E Chu Ta said:

I fear that often enough NPE can be translated to "gave me a sad." Backed up by nebulous "people," "lots of people," "so many others," etc... unqualified and unquantified, in order to obfuscate the fact that it's all about the person complaining. Are you entitled for something in the game to give you a sad, entitled to how anything makes you feel? Absolutely. That said, NPE is used as a megaphone, to project that it's not just about you, but really it is. Everyone feels differently about everything*. Own your feelings, it helps to process them. Ask the right questions and even this forum can be helpful, occasionally.

There’s an entire thread on how to beat Nym, some nuggets of wisdom in there for every faction.

*Excepting, of course, the universally beloved game Calvinball.

Like I said earlier, I haven't lost to Nym but that greatly was on my list. Nym takes away all your ability to make the "correct" move because there was none. That's why he's an NPE. There's no downside to dropping his bombs because they're unlimited, Nym can see the whole board state before he moves, can Adv Sensors BR to drop the bomb can Adv Sensors BR move and drop a bomb, can even run into you or over rocks and still drop a bomb and he receives no downside. The opponent has to suck to not drop the bomb on you. The game has stopped about who can play better and more about who brought the combo that **** the other person over more.

NPE is a real thing. When you remove the ability of a player to make the "correct" move then the game is going in the wrong direction. For instance, Kylo is the universal "NPE" many have agreed upon. He isn't overpowered or unbeatable, but versus many lists he completely shuts down their ability to make the correct move because there was none.

25 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Like I said earlier, I haven't lost to Nym but that greatly was on my list. Nym takes away all your ability to make the "correct" move because there was none. That's why he's an NPE. There's no downside to dropping his bombs because they're unlimited, Nym can see the whole board state before he moves, can Adv Sensors BR to drop the bomb can Adv Sensors BR move and drop a bomb, can even run into you or over rocks and still drop a bomb and he receives no downside. The opponent has to suck to not drop the bomb on you. The game has stopped about who can play better and more about who brought the combo that **** the other person over more.

uh, you can totally punish Nym by setting up your squad such that he can only hit one ship minimum, greatly mitigating his effectiveness while opening his frail *** up to some damage

adv sensors or no, once you learn the way he moves he becomes easier to counter and in countering him your ability to play greatly affects the outcome of the game

most every ship in the game is capable of putting out some form of damage before it dies, and an over 40 point ship has to do a lot of work to justify its spot in the list. Counterplay comes in sharply mitigating his effectiveness and blowing him the **** up. If you get too caught up by a few bomblett dropsyou're going to miss the bigger picture.

This opinion might just be because I play Armada, where ships will always shoot on account of having 360 coverage via four "firing arcs". The caveat is that those "firing arcs" greatly vary in effectiveness (often doubling or tripling the amount of dice thrown, especially if you can double arc the same target) and therefore allow your positioning to completely determine the course of the game. Flying against Nym is a similar experience in that, if you can position such that you punish him for dropping a bomblett or two then your ability to fly has had a massive impact on the game state.

12 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Like I said earlier, I haven't lost to Nym but that greatly was on my list. Nym takes away all your ability to make the "correct" move because there was none. That's why he's an NPE. There's no downside to dropping his bombs because they're unlimited, Nym can see the whole board state before he moves, can Adv Sensors BR to drop the bomb can Adv Sensors BR move and drop a bomb, can even run into you or over rocks and still drop a bomb and he receives no downside. The opponent has to suck to not drop the bomb on you. The game has stopped about who can play better and more about who brought the combo that **** the other person over more.

NPE is a real thing. When you remove the ability of a player to make the "correct" move then the game is going in the wrong direction. For instance, Kylo is the universal "NPE" many have agreed upon. He isn't overpowered or unbeatable, but versus many lists he completely shuts down their ability to make the correct move because there was none.

I think you are falling into the exact trap E Chu Ta is describing. He's not denying that someone can consider something is a NPE, but that projecting that beyond yourself is done and can be unfounded. Take your Kylo example. He isn't a universal NPE. I have encountered a couple of people quite satisfied with him. I'm not saying that they aren't in the minority or that considering Kylo a NPE is unjust, but that saying that everyone things it is a NPE is objectively false.

Too many times I've seen people use the term "NPE" like it should apply to every single person and everyone has to accommodate for this dislike, but that's simply not the case.

My personal NPE is the Stressbot and the Stressmule. Hate them with an undying passion. But, based on my observations, I seem to be in the minority. So, I'm not going to project my dislike onto other people and expect them to do something about it. That's on me.

in the end, yes, NPEs exist. But it is so based on personal preference that they are better presented as a personal problem, rather than a community one. If it is larger than you, people will come to support and agree with you. Otherwise, you are at risk of putting a foot in your mouth claiming that something is thought to be an NPE by all only to find you are the minority.

You're confusing "things I don't like" with an NPE. They're different things.

7 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

You're confusing "things I don't like" with an NPE. They're different things.

How? I have heard the term explained several times by several different people and it all boils down to personal preference. People believed Fel was an NPE, but others didn't, meaning this wasn't based on a fundamental flaw of the game, but on how each individual viewed how the game should be played.

5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

You're confusing "things I don't like" with an NPE. They're different things.

I am, and I suspect I'm not the only one. Defining NPE could be useful, but language is murky and your definition won't be the same used or adopted by everyone else anyway. If you're wanting to define it as a universally negative player experience that nobody will like, ever, you'll be unsuccessful. If it's not universal, it's subjective. If it's subjective, then my read of "gave me a sad" is a propos, as the feeling is yours, so own it and work from there.

6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I think you are falling into the exact trap E Chu Ta is describing. He's not denying that someone can consider something is a NPE, but that projecting that beyond yourself is done and can be unfounded. Take your Kylo example. He isn't a universal NPE. I have encountered a couple of people quite satisfied with him. I'm not saying that they aren't in the minority or that considering Kylo a NPE is unjust, but that saying that everyone things it is a NPE is objectively false.

Too many times I've seen people use the term "NPE" like it should apply to every single person and everyone has to accommodate for this dislike, but that's simply not the case.

My personal NPE is the Stressbot and the Stressmule. Hate them with an undying passion. But, based on my observations, I seem to be in the minority. So, I'm not going to project my dislike onto other people and expect them to do something about it. That's on me.

in the end, yes, NPEs exist. But it is so based on personal preference that they are better presented as a personal problem, rather than a community one. If it is larger than you, people will come to support and agree with you. Otherwise, you are at risk of putting a foot in your mouth claiming that something is thought to be an NPE by all only to find you are the minority.

The fact that's nym is getting cried about shows that there's at least grounds to discuss whether or not he's an NPE. My post gives a reason why he would be. He takes away the ability to make a correct move since there isn't one. Kylo may have a few supporters, but they're few and definitely in the minority. The common opinion is that he's not overpowered, but definitely not a fun experience to play against. But that was not the point of my post, the point is that true NPE's are ones that take away that ability to make a correct decision. The opponent has no input on the game.

3 hours ago, Lightrock said:

As many people pointed out, "enjoyable" is way too subjective to be a valid yardstick for measuring whether any given expansion is well designed or not.

While I agree with most of the rest of your post, this part in particular I disagree with.

Player Experience (PE or PX), and following that negative player experience, is a very real thing studied and quantified, and should be by any serious game developer with a budget. Developers can very much determine if a game release is a success or not based on if players find it "enjoyable," because at the end of the day, if you add something to your game and players are not enjoying it, isn't that what really matters when producing a "game"? As often pointed out, Tic-Tac-Toe is a wonderfully balanced, and horrifically boring, game that always ends in a draw considering two equal players.

While the study of PE is a mix of hard and soft sciences at this time, there has been a lot of ground made in it.

http://www.gameanalytics.com/blog/measuring-player-experience.html

Except from Game Analytics: Maximizing the Value of Player Data

2 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

The fact that's nym is getting cried about shows that there's at least grounds to discuss whether or not he's an NPE. My post gives a reason why he would be. He takes away the ability to make a correct move since there isn't one. Kylo may have a few supporters, but they're few and definitely in the minority. The common opinion is that he's not overpowered, but definitely not a fun experience to play against. But that was not the point of my post, the point is that true NPE's are ones that take away that ability to make a correct decision. The opponent has no input on the game.

You are still assuming that we all have to agree that something is an NPE. We don't. You can call what ever you like a personal NPE and are within your rights to do so. Yes, you made a good argument why _you_ think Nym is a NPE and you are not alone. But this continued use of the term 'NPE' as something we all have to accept and hold to is what I am arguing against and what I believe others are too. You can discuss Nym as a problem without using the term or implying that everyone must agree with it.

8 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

The fact that's nym is getting cried about shows that there's at least grounds to discuss whether or not he's an NPE. My post gives a reason why he would be. He takes away the ability to make a correct move since there isn't one. Kylo may have a few supporters, but they're few and definitely in the minority. The common opinion is that he's not overpowered, but definitely not a fun experience to play against. But that was not the point of my post, the point is that true NPE's are ones that take away that ability to make a correct decision. The opponent has no input on the game.

yeah, it really isn't

people have cried about literally everything in this game, and at that point you're going to get some things that deserve to be discussed and things that deserve to be dismissed

point being, people being upset on the internet isn't grounds for anything because it's business as usual. Needs context to matter

people have suggested various means with which you can make a "correct move", it's up to you to ignore that advice or not

9 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

You are still assuming that we all have to agree that something is an NPE. We don't. You can call what ever you like a personal NPE and are within your rights to do so. Yes, you made a good argument why _you_ think Nym is a NPE and you are not alone. But this continued use of the term 'NPE' as something we all have to accept and hold to is what I am arguing against and what I believe others are too. You can discuss Nym as a problem without using the term or implying that everyone must agree with it.

So should we use PNPE (Personal NPE) then?

15 hours ago, Marinealver said:

I also like to point out that your 13th and 14th in your unbiased, indisputable, mathematically proven, chart...

It is actually an unbiased chart, it just compile tournament results and rank ships based on them. The mathematical formula used to rank the ships is on the web page. It is the most reliable source of data we have.

16 hours ago, Marinealver said:

...are not your typical Imperial Arc dodger lists. In a matter of fact Imperial Arc dodgers (TIE Phantoms, TIE Interceptors, TIE Strikers) are no where to be found.

I know they are not. The reasons for that are quite simple:

- You cant arc dodge turrets

- Dodgers have high agi/low hull/shield. When dmg bypass agi or when dice creep gets so high, they cant survive long enough to be meaningful. Fenn was the exception because he did not have to survive that long to make an impact on a game.

15 hours ago, Marinealver said:

• Most Imperial players play arc dodgers which get around the jousting value of other ships.

...is currently false. You said yourself why they dont perform well and thats why the traditionnal Imperial aces (or arc dodgers) are not (or less) played. It's also why the ships with higher hull/shield are the only ones performing well.

16 hours ago, Marinealver said:

So if you want to be competitive you might want to change one of those things. Scum can still have the best with arc dodgers although all the bombs is making it harder. Imperials do have other builds but you will have to think beyond the netlist. My suggestion to Imperial Arc-Dodgers is to try and change one of those two. Either Imperial or Arc-dodger, it doesn't matter what you change but change them. If you don't want to change, well then have fun flying what you like but don't complain if it doesn't win. Seriously you don't see those who used to play Han + C-3P0 complaining about how both are not being played anymore.

Look at the chart?? You just said it yourself arc dodgers are nowhere to be found. Imperial players did adapt. The most played builds are with Tie/sf and Defenders. There is just no material avaible to the faction to compete with the OP stuff from Scums and Rebels.

6 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

While useful and nice, meta-wing and List Juggler should be taken with a grain of salt, considering there are many tournaments never uploaded there.

For example the ETC. Yeah, it was a team tournament with a different pairing system, but it was still an incredibly stacked tournament and Imperial did very well.

Considering the intent of the site is to compile data based on standard 100 pts tournament, it's normal to not include the ones that are different. It's a "meta" annalyser. We play a 45pts format in my local area and Imperials are dominating (tks to Omega Leader). Doesnt mean they are good in the official format. Same reason why Epic events are not compiled as well.

6 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

As someone has already pointed out, right now Imperials are better off not playing the arc-dodging game. However, RAC+ace did well either at ETC (6-1 coupled with Inquisitor) and at the European and that archetype is definitely an arc-dodging one (although it has control elements in it)

Like i said the most played builds are already non arc dodgers. No Imperial builds won a major event since the FAQ came out. They keep droping in meta ranking. Rebels were in a much better position than Imperials are now. Yet you should have seen them complaining :-) Not complicated, most players i know prefer to play the fation they like and want to have an equal chance at winning.

Currently when you play Imperials you almost always start your games with an handicap. You need to play perfectly, be very lucky with your dices and hope that your opponent makes mistake. Assuming you both roll the same and both dont make mistake, your opponent will win. Thats not fun.

5 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

So should we use PNPE (Personal NPE) then?

That would be redundant. "Personal" is included in experience. The question is always how widespread an NPE with a certain card or ship is.

I think that this major point gets too little attention: feelings about the game are important, in fact they drive the sales. A perfect game that feels ***** won't sell enough. A bad game that feels awesome* will be successful.

*for a critical amount of people. And that's the point: when is critical mass reached and how do we/FFG know before it happens? Because that's what it should be about - being able to turn it around before too much NPE gets too widespread.

i have faced people that cried the Striker was op because it could "change its maneuver on a whim"
Yeah...to a small degree. Not like its impossible to catch and its not incredibly durable/killy either.

People complain about everything

On the point that people are disagreeing on whether or not something is or is no a NPE: its not up for discussion. If someone states that something in the game was a NPE, it was. End of story. When measuring player experience, it would go in the negative column.

Too many here think that NPE has to be some publicly agreed upon quality. It does not. It is simply a negative experience for a player. Any player.

Now, the real question is, "is it actionable?"

If you have a have Vineheart01's hypothetical straw-gamer who reports a negative play experience every time they lose, then you collect that data and look for actionable items. If it comes out that the only related issue is that the its negative when the player loses, no matter the composition of the opponents list, or any other similarity than it was a game of X-Wing with 6 rocks and 100points, then you can't really do much with that. If there is a similar trend, it looks like the gamer isn't made of straw, then maybe you can consider problems with the format, but you get the idea.

However, if you collect a large amount of data, and there is a trend that game against lists containing, just for example, the Kylo Ren (Crew) card are listed as negative player experiences, then there is something you can further drill down into and examine, and take action if you, as a developer, deem that it is a reasonable amount of your playerbase that you should take action.

22 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

So should we use PNPE (Personal NPE) then?

As @GreenDragoon pointed out, it should be implied by the "E", but I've seen it used and twisted so much, that perhaps the addition of another "P" would be beneficial.

12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That would be redundant. "Personal" is included in experience.

Absolutely untrue. The reason NPE is constantly misapplied is because it suggests not a personal experience, but a shared one. The term is used to weight any individual's experience as more than one, as some kind of community gestalt, which even if it was a thing, I hardly think this board would be representative of. Just say, "This happened, I didn't like it, does anyone feel the same, how can I adapt so it doesn't get me again, etc..."

Let FFG worry about selling their game, do what you can do and play the best you can. Online saber-rattling has no discernable effect, so play. If you don't want to play anymore, then don't.

Our sentence is up. We are all free.

1 minute ago, E Chu Ta said:

Online saber-rattling has no discernable effect, so play.

The nerfpocalypse that took out Palp, Manaroo, and similar states otherwise. FFG is listening to the playerbase.

1 minute ago, kris40k said:

The nerfpocalypse that took out Palp, Manaroo, and similar states otherwise. FFG is listening to the playerbase.

Or the forumites are taking credit for someting they had nothing to do with. What of our beloved, untouched Jumpmaster 5000?

3 minutes ago, kris40k said:

The nerfpocalypse that took out Palp, Manaroo, and similar states otherwise. FFG is listening to the playerbase.

It makes way more sense to watch tournament results (where they were doing perhaps too well) than to rely on a vocal minority that may or may not actually represent the community as a whole.