5 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

You're absolutely right. NPE is about attitude. Which was the entire point of that image - guess that flew right over your head, huh?

Sure, and I guess waterboarding is fun, just people have bad attitudes about it.

6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

idk, given how everyone keeps whining about the top lists in particular, there definitely seems to be a strong correlation

I'd say there's a strong correlation to popularity, because if you don't have to play against something frequently you tend not to feel that it's destroying your ability to enjoy the game.

But given how so many people talking about NPE go to extreme pains to point out it's NOT about power level (Dee made that point at length every time he raised it on the Mynock podcast) it seems to fall on deaf ears.

On 8/14/2017 at 10:07 AM, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm not even sure what any of that means either.

I GET IT... but I learned about three years ago that I do not care anymore.

You go and you play the game how you want to play it, and leave this craptastic rigamaroo rules blarb alone... you'll be more happy like-a-dhats!

YAH...

"I lost to this ship. Its NPE!"

thats basically what i get from everyone whining about NPE.

Just now, Vineheart01 said:

"I lost to this ship. Its NPE!"

thats basically what i get from everyone whining about NPE.

Which is a shame because it's not what almost anybody is actually saying.

Confirmation bias?

3 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Sure, and I guess waterboarding is fun, just people have bad attitudes about it.

If you'd like to compare playing with toy space ships to a form of US Government-approved torture, then I would guess that says more about you than it does the subject at hand.

2 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

If you'd like to compare playing with toy space ships to a form of US Government-approved torture, then I would guess that says more about you than it does the subject at hand.

I guess the sarcasm flew right over your head.

Look, telling people they would find something fun if it wasn't for their attitude is not helpful at all.

Pretty sure he's just trolling.

18 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

"I lost to this ship. Its NPE!"

thats basically what i get from everyone whining about NPE.

Please I haven't lost to Nym yet, but he's horrible experience to play against. Same with Kylo and Fair ship

Just now, Tbetts94 said:

Please I haven't lost to Nym yet, but he's horrible experience to play against. Same with Kylo and Fair ship

Oh i havnt either that was just a jab at pretty much everyone i hear whine about NPE
NPE to me is just a cover people use to basically say "This game isnt fun! Fix it or i quit!" - i never use that term, no matter how badly i got crushed or disliked a strategy.

11 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Look, telling people they would find something fun if it wasn't for their attitude is not helpful at all.

As far as I'm concerned, attitude plays more of a part in a negative play experience than any other factor. Personally speaking, the only bad experiences I've had playing X-Wing have been as a result of the players across the table. Whether it's sulking, argumentative or angry, a negative attitude makes for an unenjoyable game for than list composition.

For reference, I played at both Yavin and the European Championships this year and had a bad day at the office both times results wise, but I only had one game - one! - that wasn't thoroughly enjoyable, and that was against a player who was trying to question/bully every little thing, and who ended up being overruled by the TO (after calling them over himself) three times in a row.

I got smashed 100-0 by a Kanan/Biggs list I was totally unprepared for, and the game was still fun and enjoyable because of the positive attitue of my opponent. Go figure.

15 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Pretty sure he's just trolling.

...and you came to this conclusion, how? Because I'm actually agreeing with you that power level = / = NPE?

This is probably too little, too late for this thread, but I'll try anyway.

I know that people hate playing against certain things, but that's not really something anybody can change, and it's a waste of time to discuss, because it's 100% subjective and doesn't help anyone with their current problems on a timescale that matters for most players. With the exception of "I want to change FFG corporate culture" threads, can we just lay off of bringing that discussion into threads that are actually talking about the game as it exists now?

What can be discussed is how you approach powerful things in the game. So while SOTL's refrain of "NPE does not equal power level" is true, it's also pointless. One can discuss ways to manage powerful ships that still allow one to play with squads they enjoy. If yoy find something NPE, you can complain and hope that some 9 months in the future something will change, and you can hate X-wing until then, or you can explore all available options. Imperfect solutions now are worlds better than perfect solutions a year from now.

But then a whole thread dedicated to telling people Nym is ok because QuickDraw is just baiting that response because it's been couched from the start in terms that NPE/OP are the same and if you can beat it it's not NPE. That's where you started all this, right?

Quickdraw is the #1 imperial pilot and has been for months. You don't need to point out that he's good because pretty much any Imperial player upset about Nym is already using QD and is still upset.

Its true that complaining about NPE game components isn't very helpful in the short term. I guess its just more cathartic than anything, other than perhaps putting a bug in FFG's ear for possible balance passes down the road. They won't know someone doesn't find something fun if no one ever says anything.

But like you said, @Biophysical, that's not going to change anything on a realistic short term time scale. Constructive conversation about how to deal with it is likely more immediately beneficial to folks*.

Perhaps threatening to kick people in the junk if they play certain combinations?

*but sometimes its good to blow off steam

35 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Oh i havnt either that was just a jab at pretty much everyone i hear whine about NPE
NPE to me is just a cover people use to basically say "This game isnt fun! Fix it or i quit!" - i never use that term, no matter how badly i got crushed or disliked a strategy.

Yesterday I had a horrible day with work and some other things going on. So I decided to go the game store to get a game in and relax. My opponent sits down and he's flying Fair Ship Rebels. Game was not fun at all, very boring, and even though I outflew him by a huge margin everything was at one health. That's how that list works but it's not fun. The game lasted 1 and a half hours and I killed a Tie Fighter... The game was boring and no matter what I did it did not matter. That's an NPE. I come to the game store to have fun and relax. But these builds can provide an experience where I'd almost rather play another game. I've resorted to missions and Epic, but I'd like to try out regular builds for the local tournaments and it just isn't fun anymore.

7 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

But then a whole thread dedicated to telling people Nym is ok because QuickDraw is just baiting that response because it's been couched from the start in terms that NPE/OP are the same and if you can beat it it's not NPE. That's where you started all this, right?

Quickdraw is the #1 imperial pilot and has been for months. You don't need to point out that he's good because pretty much any Imperial player upset about Nym is already using QD and is still upset.

Did I mention NPE or OP once in my initial subject? Yes, everybody knows that Quickdraw is good, but I'm trying to point out that she's good enough against major ace counters to allow aces into a squad because of how good she is for the points against typical ace counters. I'm also not saying Nym is good for the game, or that he's an example of quality game design. I'm saying if you like to fly Imperials, you've got ships that are just as fair against Nym as Nym is against Fel or the Inquisitor. If you disagree with that, cool. Please counter my arguments if you care to. This whole "health of the game" argument is not at all what I'm about, and it wasn't part of my initial argument. I'll break it down:

Paragraph 1 of OP: This common Nym build is really good against aces.

Paragraph 2: Nym costs more than aces, but he's a counter, so this is something that can be dealt with.

Paragraph 3 &4: Imperials have a really good, cheap ship that counters Nym very effectively and is good against other stuff.

If this were a math or physics problem, this is where one writes "QED", because no one wants to see the busywork.

Not specifically pointing out that the 66 points remaining in a Quickdraw squad could reasonably house an ace was clearly a mistake on my part. I figured people could figure that out on their own, but was, in enough cases, wrong.

TBetts, did you ask that player if he had a different list with him? If he didn't, that's the time to discuss how bringing a selection of lists is a good idea and play someone else or play a 50pt game or another format.

I bring at least 3 lists with me: powerful; silly; medium. Sometimes more options but not everyone can do that, however it's a simple courtesy to be able to play different games with different people on different days.

18 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

TBetts, did you ask that player if he had a different list with him? If he didn't, that's the time to discuss how bringing a selection of lists is a good idea and play someone else or play a 50pt game or another format.

I bring at least 3 lists with me: powerful; silly; medium. Sometimes more options but not everyone can do that, however it's a simple courtesy to be able to play different games with different people on different days.

He wanted to practice it and test it out. I didn't want to deny him of that because I was also practicing a list. I do bring two lists with me though for that same reason.

5 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Repeat after me: NPE is nothing todo with power level. NPE is nothing to do with power level. NPE is nothing to do with power level.

Are we getting through to you? At all? Even a little bit?

Same could be said to you. How about this. NPE has nothing to do with your opponent. Say it a few times and see if it helps. Did it? If no maybe consider that those sort of comments do absolutely nothing to help your case.

7 hours ago, Joe Boss Red Seven said:

I GET IT... but I learned about three years ago that I do not care anymore.

You go and you play the game how you want to play it, and leave this craptastic rigamaroo rules blarb alone... you'll be more happy like-a-dhats!

YAH...

Now this brother gets it?

9 hours ago, Thormind said:

This is the current meta: http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?

- The first imperial built is in 13th position. Wouldnt you consider that a bad spot? I do.

- All the top imperial builds and the most played ones dont have aces. The first Imperial built with aces is in 22nd position and represent only 0.5% of the total # of squad played.

- Protectorates are dropping in ranking and will continu to do so thanks to Nym.

I also like to point out that your 13th and 14th in your unbiased, indisputable, mathematically proven, chart are not your typical Imperial Arc dodger lists. In a matter of fact Imperial Arc dodgers (TIE Phantoms, TIE Interceptors, TIE Strikers) are no where to be found. So using your statistics here are some possibilities for the low results.

• Most Imperial players play arc dodgers which get around the jousting value of other ships. In the past non-arc dodging Imperial lists were scarce and didn't do so well, the most notable one would be shuttles (doom and buzzsaw).
• Arc Dodgers are not in a good position, and Imperials don't exactly have the best arc dodgers anymore since Protectorate has came out.
• Meta doesn't favor arc dodgers as the protectorate is falling in rank.
• A lot of Imperial players that have experience with Imperial Arc dodgers doesn't have much experience with other builds. Those that do have never had the success to improve other imperial builds.

So if you are an imperial arc-dodger type player and are complaining about not winning any tournaments; my response would be a simple "No-Duh". and for a couple of reasons.

1. Imperials don't hold the top spot for Arc dodging builds
2. Meta doesn't favor arc dodgers right now.

So if you want to be competitive you might want to change one of those things. Scum can still have the best with arc dodgers although all the bombs is making it harder. Imperials do have other builds but you will have to think beyond the netlist. My suggestion to Imperial Arc-Dodgers is to try and change one of those two. Either Imperial or Arc-dodger, it doesn't matter what you change but change them. If you don't want to change, well then have fun flying what you like but don't complain if it doesn't win. Seriously you don't see those who used to play Han + C-3P0 complaining about how both are not being played anymore.

I don't understand how or why people are arguing over what is and is not an NPE. It's completely subjective.

About the closest thing I have to an NPE is Soontir Fel. And he only became one after playing against his one and only build for YEARS. He was never broken or OP, and I got really good at knowing how to beat him. I just got so tired of seeing him across the table.

For other people, he's their favorite pilot! There is no right or wrong answer for what constitutes an NPE.

But what I'm not going to do, is hold my opponent accountable for flying Soontir because of my bias. It's my problem, not his or hers.

So the only question is, how do you handle your own personal NPEs? Are they so negative that it has a lasting impact on your mood? If so, is that negative mood impacting others?

If so, you probably have an ultimately unhealthy relationship with the game. I'm not going to tell anyone to quit, or take a break, or try another format, or try another game entirely. You decide how to spend your time. But if the P-Es are so N that you can't shake your opponent's hand and leave the negativity behind, you perhaps need to evaluate your relationship with the game and figure out how to get that positivity you once felt back.

Personally I hate the term 'NPE', because it's a fairly meaningless buzz-phrase that is, sadly, used more often than not as an excuse for losing to something (not always). However, on the other hand I don't accept 'everything is fine as long as you don't let it bother you' as anything other than drivel. Ships/pilots/upgrades/etc can very easily be poorly designed or thought out, and create an unenjoyable experience that is more widely felt than a single player or group's personal biases. Anything that takes player agency away will always risk veering too close to that (Biggs in all forms, and most recently Friendships Suffer Rapidly [FSR]), as will anything that is evidently too efficient for its cost (Nym, Jumpmaster, Fenn Rau).

For Nym specifically, it's a combination of a lot of little factors that very quickly add up to far more than his points cost should suggest. It's a heavy bomber yet the dial is far superior to both its counterparts (K-Wing and Punisher), among others. Likewise, it has more health than either of them (the highest total HP of any small ship in the game, actually) and despite sharing the same archetype, where the K-Wing and Punisher have no Elite slot on any pilot, the Scurrg gets one on every pilot bar the cheapest one. For Nym this is doubly egregious as he shares the same base PS as Miranda, so can easily and without thought get to PS10, where he will almost always be dropping his Bomblets with full information (and since they are infinite he can't 'waste' them either).

Some genius decided to allow the Turret+System slot combination again, which means he has a reliable way to deal two unblockable damage without needing any actions (so common counterplays of blocking, stress or obstacles do not realistically affect him) - again, with nigh full information so if he does need to Barrel Roll for range he doesn't have to gamble on the target no longer being at R1 come the Combat phase (the one saving grace of the previous incarnation on the VCX). In the same vein, thanks to his Scum version ability and Genius, he can drop his bombs without any downside even if he bumps something.

All of this on a ship that, even tricked out with all the tools for the above (the Advanced Sensors version is little different cost-wise, depending on the choice of turret), costs fewer than 40pts (39 to be precise). I am yet to hear a convincing argument for how all of that is acceptable. 'He just dies' is not valid, since as mentioned before, he has more total HP than any other small ship in the game, and is far more mobile than other comparable ships (thanks to the excellent dial and PS10).

Just because he can be beaten and hasn't completely ripped the game in half single-handed does not mean he is not a problem.

17 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I'd say there's a strong correlation to popularity, because if you don't have to play against something frequently you tend not to feel that it's destroying your ability to enjoy the game.

But given how so many people talking about NPE go to extreme pains to point out it's NOT about power level (Dee made that point at length every time he raised it on the Mynock podcast) it seems to fall on deaf ears.

It falls on deaf ears mostly because contrary to what you say, NPE and power level are very closely linked. For starters, since "NPE" is by definition based entirely on the mental/emotional state of one (or both) of the players during and after the game, it makes a massive difference whether the player in question won or lost the game (and if he lost - whether he got wrecked and never had much chance to begin with or if he did put up up a fight and the game was close). Saying that NPE and power level have nothing to do with each other is essentially claiming that winning or losing makes no difference to how you feel. If that's true for you, you're a rare bird indeed.

Secondly, as you pointed out yourself, power level affects popularity enormously. That's the difference between having to face a certain list in almost every tournament, sometimes multiple times, and having to face it every once in a while - usually as a curiosity and played by one of those guys who care less about winning and more about playing something "original" or "odd". Again, since NPE is all about the emotional state of the player, I'm reasonably sure you're going to be far more aggravated in the former case than the latter, no matter how "objectively" unfun the list might be to play against in a vacuum.

19 hours ago, Thormind said:

This is the current meta: http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?

- The first imperial built is in 13th position. Wouldnt you consider that a bad spot? I do.

- All the top imperial builds and the most played ones dont have aces. The first Imperial built with aces is in 22nd position and represent only 0.5% of the total # of squad played.

While useful and nice, meta-wing and List Juggler should be taken with a grain of salt, considering there are many tournaments never uploaded there.

For example the ETC. Yeah, it was a team tournament with a different pairing system, but it was still an incredibly stacked tournament and Imperial did very well.

Only 2 players ended the weekend without dropping a single game in the swiss and both were flying uncommon Imperial list: one was Vessery+QD+PalpaYorr and the other was sensor cluster QD+Backdraft+Zeta Leader (yes, not Omega).

As someone has already pointed out, right now Imperials are better off not playing the arc-dodging game. However, RAC+ace did well either at ETC (6-1 coupled with Inquisitor) and at the European and that archetype is definitely an arc-dodging one (although it has control elements in it)

I have the feelings that Empire players in this forum are way more whiney and scared to change than the ones you actually find on the mats