15 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

This might not be possible right now, but I don't think it's fully explored, either.

As far as successful combined arms lists are concerned, Parattani and ODJ are totally combined arms lists, albeit with great action efficiency on top. RAC/Whisper is a combined arms list as well.

100% agreed that it's not solved - and honestly I don't think just straight wave 11 will be out by itself long enough for it to be ever solved before we get hit by a new release. I assume everyone will copy the top lists from gencon without much testing from there until guns for hire/force Friday hits. Unfortunate that we can't ever lock the beta to see what would eventually come out I think it honestly just takes time for the meta to settle long enough to be able to tech in small changes to deal with meta lists without that tech just being a waste. Who knows if we'll have that much time in wave 11.

Oh yeah, those are definitely strong combined arms (ODJ maybe less so, but I get what you mean). Unfortunate that aside from parattanni they've plummeted from the face of the Earth though.

9 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

Ok so what 30 points of imperials would you take to synergize with two ps9 aces? They've got nothing!

1 point short for bomblet gen unguided rockets death fire.

SAD!

Dash/Miranda (the action bomb version) is a combined arms list that's still pretty relevant. They're both turrets, but fight indifferent ways. I guess more accurately, Bomb/TLT Miranda is combined arms all on her own.

I'm still of the opinion that cowardice is the rate limiting step to reaching meta equilibrium. I don't think enough people have quality reactors to test and incubate lists. Consequently they're afraid to try untested lists in competition and don't have all the tough reps they'd need to maximize their successful chances even if they did. I think the very good, not obvious lists that have splashed over the years are the products of the few quality reactors we've got right now.

Edit: initially, my phone auto corrected "rate limiting step" to "crate limiting step", and now which in context makes it sound like I was calling the Krayts cowards, which I didn't mean to do, but I'm happy that I did anyway. "Krayt Limiting Step" is a good Kraytvented squad name, especially if it beats a lot of Krayts.

2 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

He does indeed hard counter soontir, awings, jax, or any 3/4hp ace.

Also gives Vader a run for his money but the doubleaction economy tends to let him win anyway.

I have yet to lose to a single Nym, its not that hard to stay out of range1. I am used to staying at a distance anyway so his weakness is my casual play. Heck majority of the games ive had against him i took him out in 1 round of combat because they just go "Herher i am R1 OP Incarnate you cant beat me" and i pincer him at R2 between 3 ships, 1 with cruises banked up, and utterly destroy him.
I have ALWAYS told friends and new players to never gun for R1 unless you have the PS advantage. It is a trap, and even if you have the PS advantage it can be a trap. More often than not when i get R1, unless im in a position where i cant get return-fire it almost always bites me in the face. It also heavily limits your mobility for continued assault, while R2/3 does not.

Which is why I run him with TLT bomblet and cluster mines. Cut off areas of the map with mines/ bomblets and TLT from range 3 and run Dash as my big gun.

24 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Dash/Miranda (the action bomb version) is a combined arms list that's still pretty relevant. They're both turrets, but fight indifferent ways. I guess more accurately, Bomb/TLT Miranda is combined arms all on her own.

I'm still of the opinion that cowardice is the crate limiting step to reaching meta equilibrium. I don't think enough people have quality reactors to test and incubate lists. Consequently they're afraid to try untested lists in competition and don't have all the tough reps they'd need to maximize their successful chances even if they did. I think the very good, not obvious lists that have splashed over the years are the products of the few quality reactors we've got right now.

I've felt for a while that the rate of prodcut relase could afford to slow down.

3 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Which misses the point. Again.

IS. HE. FUN.

Depends who you ask probably.

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I mean, you DID have the audcity to bring an ace list

If you bring a skew, you WILL run into bad matchups. That is true across literally every game

If you bring soonts and the name SF with VI, you will better be able to deal with them

This isn't a difficult concept. Guaranteed damage ALWAYS ****** over low hp aces and if you're not prepared to adapt to that fact then you have to accept the consequences plain and simple

So what list can an imperial player bring that is AS versatile and dangerous as Nym? High agility low hull aces are our thing. We don't have nearly as effective fat ships as rebels or scum. There is nothing that the empire has, which is at least as useful against the meta as Nym is.

Rock paper scissors aren't a problem. The problem is when a single matchup is too good. Being the best at a single niche is something unavoidable. There will be a best arc dodger, best jouster, best bomber etc. in the game at all times. The problem is when the same ship does more than 1 thing at a high level.

5 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

So what list can an imperial player bring that is AS versatile and dangerous as Nym? High agility low hull aces are our thing. We don't have nearly as effective fat ships as rebels or scum. There is nothing that the empire has, which is at least as useful against the meta as Nym is.

Rock paper scissors aren't a problem. The problem is when a single matchup is too good. Being the best at a single niche is something unavoidable. There will be a best arc dodger, best jouster, best bomber etc. in the game at all times. The problem is when the same ship does more than 1 thing at a high level.

Isn't that what the OP is about? 34 points of Quickdraw can handle 43 points of Nym pretty effectively. There's enough left for Soontir and Inquisitor if you love double repositioning, or a pair of Defenders if you like beefy ships, or one of each, or more SFs, or whatever.

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Nym is about 10 points more than the aces he dumps on. He outpoints them and has a good matchup, it will be one sided. Quickdraw us almost 10 points less than Nym. If it's not an absolute hard counter, that's 100% okay.

You have to take into account the wole squad, not just 1 pilot vs 1 pilot. Almost any build where "usual Nym" is present will simply destroy stuff like triple aces or even Quick + 2 aces. I'm ok when 1 built has a small advantage over another (ie Quick vs Nym) but when you have almost no chance to win unless you completly outskill your opponent, there is a problem.

Also Nym doesnt outmatch just aces but basically anything with lower hull/shield.

3 hours ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

This is a good point. Nothing counters Nym even close to how Nym counters aces. It's like playing Rock-Paper-Scissors, and paper takes 3 tries to kill rock- yet rock can 1v3 multiple scissors.

It is also worth noting how Fenn fares with Nym around- IE not well at all. I think we can all agree that Fenn is the most powerful ace by a wide margin- and even he can't compete in a meta with Nyms all over. I think they made a huge mistake giving Nym such a high PS- I personally would have made him 6 or 7- then at least with VI you'd have to bid to out PS a 9 ace- as it is now VI is just stapled on and makes all PS9 aces instantly obsolete. Just IMO but I think dropping him to PS 6 or 7 would be a perfect fix.

IMO the big mistake is the system slot. Remove that upgrade and you still have a really good ship. He would still be able to one shot ships but there would be more randomness involved. With accuracy corrector he does not care about focus/tl wich enable him to basically be a high ps ace and arc dodge all day long.

I think people are overreacting to Nym: yeah he's good, but is he really so much better against ace than a bombing sabine-crewed advancing slamming Miranda? I don't think so, at the very least (with the setting you are considering in this very thread, ps 10 and adv. sensor) he still has to roll well without modifiers. He doesn't even have the guaranteed damage from Sabine!

Some aces have survived and did well against Miranda (Fen, Teroch, Inquisitor mostly, but even Jax has seen success). Nym ain't really adding much dangers that they weren't already facing.

3 minutes ago, Thormind said:

You have to take into account the wole squad, not just 1 pilot vs 1 pilot. Almost any build where "usual Nym" is present will simply destroy stuff like triple aces or even Quick + 2 aces.

Holy crap man, that's the whole point of this thread. Your remaining 66 points is fully capable of tackling Dengar.

What's your current list, Biophysical?

3 minutes ago, TheHumanHydra said:

What's your current list, Biophysical?

I don't have one. I've been wavering between a bunch of options that I enjoy flying and have different strengths against the meta, but have been too short of time to fully test any one of them. Not ideal, certainly, but that's life.

6 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Holy crap man, that's the whole point of this thread. Your remaining 66 points is fully capable of tackling Dengar.

then why are you saying it's normal he completly outmatch aces because hes more expansive?? In the end it will be 2 x 100pts (or close) builds facing each other and the one with Nym will have an overly high chance to win. Be it vs triple ace or vs Quick + aces. The leaked FAQ would have brough back some balance to the game and would have given Imperials a chance to make a comeback. Tks to Nym and Lowrisk it's back to square one before the faq is even released...

12 minutes ago, Thormind said:

then why are you saying it's normal he completly outmatch aces because hes more expansive?? In the end it will be 2 x 100pts (or close) builds facing each other and the one with Nym will have an overly high chance to win. Be it vs triple ace or vs Quick + aces. The leaked FAQ would have brough back some balance to the game and would have given Imperials a chance to make a comeback. Tks to Nym and Lowrisk it's back to square one before the faq is even released...

I'm saying that Quickdraw can help protect an ace from a very bad matchup by being a very bad matchup for Nym. I don't know if she can protect two aces, but I can confidently say she can protect one from Nym. A Nym that ignores Quickdraw's offense is one that doesn't last a very long time.

5 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Cool. A lot of people aren't having fun, though, and you won't convince them that they ARE actually having fun by talking about power level.

NPE is not the far end of the 'OK ---> OP' axis, it's a different axis in its own right.

Who are those "lots of people"?

I've seen like 15 people complaining about him here on the forums. Haven't seen a single one on Facebook nor on Reddit, and most importantly- not even one in real life. To push my point further, the majority of people whining about Nym were also the ones complaining about jumpmasters, scumwing, t-65s, imperials being bad and everything else.

My personal opinion about Nym is that while he is no slouch, his lack of defenses and red hard 3s make him much more fair than pretty much any of the ships I've seen be popular in the meta from the very first tournament I went to 20 or so months ago.

Similary, nyc is swarming with nyms because he's new and swanky (love me some bombs). None of us have done well at store champs or tournies yet, or complained about it either way

But it's probably because none of us can stand dengar

The reason he was comparing Soontir and Nym was to enlighten the point that the usual "big dog" in a list, i.e. Soontir, was rendered virtually useless by Nym. Regardless of who Soontir is with, he is useless against Nym and will be dead weight.

Quickdraw is the opposite. She deals with Nym quite well, but you lose the super-strong-endgame-presence since she will probably die mid-game due to doubledog-daring people to shoot her. So the rest of the list now needs to be renovated to give you that end-game staying power and deal with Dengar
Imperials dont have a problem with Dengar. Contrary to popular opinion, hes not a one-man army. Hes a pain in the butt thats for sure though. Except the now-nerfed Dengaroo build, ive never felt like he was unstoppable. He pays through the nose for that retaliation shot, which can be avoided.

23 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Imperials dont have a problem with Dengar. Contrary to popular opinion, hes not a one-man army. Hes a pain in the butt thats for sure though. Except the now-nerfed Dengaroo build, ive never felt like he was unstoppable. He pays through the nose for that retaliation shot, which can be avoided.

Yeah, I mean the dude does put out a bunch of damage and has actions for days, but 9hp behind 2 AGI is manageable.

3 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'm saying that Quickdraw can help protect an ace from a very bad matchup by being a very bad matchup for Nym. I don't know if she can protect two aces, but I can confidently say she can protect one from Nym. A Nym that ignores Quickdraw's offense is one that doesn't last a very long time.

I dont know where you got that but Quick is not a very bad matchup. Nym can take him out with 3 shots (or less if bomblets are added). On top of the undefendable range 1 dmg, when Nym shoot with his primary weapon and uses AC, Quick only gets 2 defense dices.

If Quick is at ps 11 he has a small advantage but if hes at ps9 the balance is tipped toward Nym.

The entire topic is QD at PS11....
And Nym cant do jack to her if shes not in R1, and going after Nym its really easy to not be in R1.
Not to mention if shes looking at him she will either take no damage anyway or slap him with another attack. Odds are she will kill him before he kills her unless you fly like a dummy into bombs when you go second.

15 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I dont know where you got that but Quick is not a very bad matchup. Nym can take him out with 3 shots (or less if bomblets are added). On top of the undefendable range 1 dmg, when Nym shoot with his primary weapon and uses AC, Quick only gets 2 defense dices.

If Quick is at ps 11 he has a small advantage but if hes at ps9 the balance is tipped toward Nym.

The whole Quickdraw argument I've made has been regarding PS11 Quickdraw.

That being the case. I'd put money on it that 4 times out of 5, if Quickdraw take a Range 1 shot from Nym's turret (or Bomblet) it will be because the Quickdraw player is okay with taking a damage or two to put a pair of 4-dice shots into Nym.

Remember, aux arcs are your friends!

If you can run from Nym AND still shoot him, you've got the advantage

2 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I dont know where you got that but Quick is not a very bad matchup. Nym can take him out with 3 shots (or less if bomblets are added). On top of the undefendable range 1 dmg, when Nym shoot with his primary weapon and uses AC, Quick only gets 2 defense dices.

If Quick is at ps 11 he has a small advantage but if hes at ps9 the balance is tipped toward Nym.

It will be really difficult for Nym to get a range 1 shot on PS11 quickdraw. It would require skills to predict exactly where QD will land and landing in a spot perfect where a b-roll does not get her out of range. Difficult to do. Ask Fenn how easy getting range 1 shots on adaptability quickdraw is.

QD is not a REALLY bad matchup, but its a decent matchup for the imps which we need at this point in time. Quickdraw seems like she is our 2017 saving grace. Hard to imagine an imperial squad without her these days.

7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Remember, aux arcs are your friends!

If you can run from Nym AND still shoot him, you've got the advantage

This.

Aux arc typically isnt favored on QD since it is only a 2die attack, but against a 1agi ship it can still do damage (plus FCS mods making it more reliable)
However, if its a 3Sloop for a 3die main gun but high risk of eating a bomb vs a 4fwd 2die aux arc attack and no risk of bomb, take the 2die aux attack. Poke damage until hes low enough to risk taking damage yourself, he has more HP so trading shots isnt ideal but typically QD would still kill him in a full on R1 slugfest, just not cleanly. Especially if you already have the TL, two 4die attacks will butcher Nym.

edit: Not to mention, usually the #1 ept we see QD with is Score to Settle since she gets double benefits from it and it keeps her cheap. If sacrificing that and 1pt puts her at such a huge advantage over Nym, its worth it. I'd shave Mk2 engines off my defenders for that.