5 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Nym isn't unbeatable. I haven't lost to him yet. But I've been bringing 6 hit point SF's and a 5 hit point OL, oh and Palp to Palp a blank on the bombs. However, there's no way I'd win any of those games without a built in way to counter him. You can't just "fly better" versus him. You have to LIST better.

Well everything is a hard case of Rock/Paper/Scissors so as long as you know how to build a Rock, Paper, or Scissors list, you just have to MATCHUP better.

10 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I mean, you DID have the audcity to bring an ace list

If you bring a skew, you WILL run into bad matchups. That is true across literally every game

If you bring soonts and the name SF with VI, you will better be able to deal with them

This isn't a difficult concept. Guaranteed damage ALWAYS ****** over low hp aces and if you're not prepared to adapt to that fact then you have to accept the consequences plain and simple

And this, nearly word for word, was the argument made by players defending pre-nerf Phantoms. I really liked flying them, but I totally understood why people hated Phantoms- I don't see why it's difficult to see why people dislike Nym.

5 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Where did you start? Where did Nym start? Where is the terrain? Where is the rest of your list? Where is the rest of Nym's list?

It's a decent counter-argument in a total vacuum though, I'll give you that.

Of course, it depends on all those factors, but Nym also has genius and can ignore many of those factors in the case of his bombs, where you can't bump or go over obstacles without significantly hurting your chances to stay alive.

4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

@Scumwing Apologist

If he topped out at PS9 I imagine things would be a bit different. Other PS9 aces across factions would still have a chance with enough bid. Nym would still be able to bring the pain when "guessing" or doing the same thing he does now against lower PS. Would probably see more TLT on the Scrugg as the cost comes down with a lower PS....so maybe on net it would land somewhere similar.

Yeah I think it would be a lot more fair, encourage initiative bids, and not feel so gross. Honestly, flying Nym against aces just feels...icky. It reminds me a bit of dual-Lash of Submission lists from WH40K 4-5th Ed. Was it good? Heck yeah. Did you feel good taking all the agency away from your opponent and curb stomping them completely and utterly with very little skill involved? Not really.

9 minutes ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

And this, nearly word for word, was the argument made by players defending pre-nerf Phantoms. I really liked flying them, but I totally understood why people hated Phantoms- I don't see why it's difficult to see why people dislike Nym.

Slight problem with false equivalency here

The meta isn't literally just nym and his hard counters because nym isn't ****** like pre errata phantom was

It's fine that you don't like him, but you're still leading yourself into bad matchups by building a list that crutches on a specific strength and falls to a specific weakness

Building a solid squad is integral to all wargames and in all wargames skews lead to bad matchups unless said skew is just busted

51 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

You know whats great against Nym and Miranda? An Ion Cannon.
Can't drop bombs (or advanced sensors) if your Ioned.

Otherwise I agree with the OP, Quickdraw is a great response to Nym.

Locally, people are all over Ion lately. If Nym is such a concern, I'm not sure why more people aren't just planning on including Ion in their lists. It makes every complaint about AS/ABT/Bomblet Nym go away.

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

Slight problem with false equivalency here

The meta isn't literally just nym and his hard counters because nym isn't ****** like pre errata phantom was

It's fine that you don't like him, but you're still leading yourself into bad matchups by building a list that crutches on a specific strength and falls to a specific weakness

Building a solid squad is integral to all wargames and in all wargames skews lead to bad matchups unless said skew is just busted

Oh believe me man I'm not leading myself anywhere. My Imperial aces are staying on the shelf. There is absolutely 0 reason to bring them into competitive ATM. What I'm saying is I wish that weren't the case- I like seeing aces on tables, and since Wave 11 dropped, I've seen next to none, not even Fenn.

I haven't seen any ace EXCEPT Fenn since x7s dropped

Not seeing aces is not new to me. Been this way for almost 3 waves now

People have a very narrow definition of 'ace' that basically seems to mean 'Soontir or GTFO'.

They've been gone since Imperial Veterans.

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

I haven't seen any ace EXCEPT Fenn since x7s dropped

Not seeing aces is not new to me. Been this way for almost 3 waves now

Yeah I agree x7 really caused them to drop-off, which is why I don't understand the design philosophy of Nym. Why was a 100% ace counter necessary? It just feels icky man, icky. GW made many of the same moves with 40K- and I gotta say I'm not really thrilled with this direction FFG is taking. Nym is a step in the "only one player gets to enjoy the game or have any agency" direction, just like per-nerf Phantoms.

Again, nym isntjust an ace counter

He performs well against a lot of ship types, esp ignoring fairship defense capabilities

He just happens to counter aces because he uses bombs

If you vary your list to not get hard countered by him, games v him will get more enjoyable. The ace + Cheri archetype does this well because Cheri covers that weakness

I'm very much into the Nym is slightly too good for his cost and what he can do with bomblets. With Engine, and Adv Sensors he does the same thing AdvSlam K-wings are doing, but at PS10.

While I'm not 100% in agreement with the possible AdvSlam nerf, I understand the need for it to have Imp Aces viable.

The best way to fix Nym is to nerf Genius in some way. I would propose that they add (to an already long worded card), if you haven't performed an action, and if you did not overlap an obstacle or another ship you may drop the bomb after executing your maneuver. This way he can still Advanced Sensor reposition, drop and move, or he can move and drop(without bumping) then actions. He will still be powerful, but a little less easy mode bomb dropping. Aces would still need to worry about autoblaster, but that won't be a one shot kill and Nym isn't that hard to kill.

2 minutes ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

Yeah I agree x7 really caused them to drop-off, which is why I don't understand the design philosophy of Nym. Why was a 100% ace counter necessary? It just feels icky man, icky. GW made many of the same moves with 40K- and I gotta say I'm not really thrilled with this direction FFG is taking. Nym is a step in the "only one player gets to enjoy the game or have any agency" direction, just like per-nerf Phantoms.

FFG.

9 minutes ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

Yeah I agree x7 really caused them to drop-off, which is why I don't understand the design philosophy of Nym. Why was a 100% ace counter necessary? It just feels icky man, icky. GW made many of the same moves with 40K- and I gotta say I'm not really thrilled with this direction FFG is taking. Nym is a step in the "only one player gets to enjoy the game or have any agency" direction, just like per-nerf Phantoms.

Also forget to mention the irony that Whisper, a low hp ace, caused the same matchups problem nym does for them

Not to mention how the game was dominated by Palp ACES for a good stretch of time prompting the use of hard counters

Maybe it's just that aces aren't particularly well designed and either crush or get wrecked in general

7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Again, nym isntjust an ace counter

Yeah agreed man. Which makes him even worse. It's not just that he single-handedly pushes an entire archetype out of the meta, he's also great against other matchups too. It's like the JM5K all over again- it's just a ship that's too well-rounded, too point efficient, too easy to fly, too forgiving, too easy to deny your opponent agency. Nym is X-Wing with the Konami Code punched in. Nym is easy mode.

No, that's dengar

Haven't seen nym showing up without that twice in a row world's winning *******

EDIT: NOT to begrudge the champions because they had to slug it out against similar bull for a very long period of time.

Just relative to the rest of the cast, the jm5k is kinda stupid

Only thing i'll say the Scurrg has over the JM5K in the "all around too broken" category is the Jm5K is broken in every category while Scurrg is pretty much limited to one specific pilot and isnt ungodly durable.

Jm5K can still be used in so many ridiculous ways, i havnt seen the scurrg be a problem even in the slightest sense other than Nym.

5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

No, that's dengar

Haven't seen nym showing up without that twice in a row world's winning *******

EDIT: NOT to begrudge the champions because they had to slug it out against similar bull for a very long period of time.

Just relative to the rest of the cast, the jm5k is kinda stupid

Amen. Jesus does that ship ruin this game.

12 minutes ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

Amen. Jesus does that ship ruin this game.

Jesus died for our sins

The jm5k was birthed from FFG's

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

Individual ship high polarity matchups do not mean high polarity list matchups.

Quickdraw is not is 60ish point Decimator that has lots of bad matchups, she's a a modestly priced, widely effective ship with a couple great matchups, a lot of solid matchups and, and very few terrible matchups. She lets you have a real list, with ships you like.

Well they kind of do mean you do have high polarity matchups, by design. It's hard to do "combined arms" lists right now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is every major meta is doing one thing extremely well and running with it - there aren't a lot of generalist lists out there. I'm on mobile so it's hard to grab examples, but the if you're willing to run with the "tier one" lists being fair ship rebel, nymgar, and cruise aces for example each has doubled down into just doing one thing very well and mostly ignoring the rest.

Maybe we'll see it tone down some after gencon/Nova, but I'm not really sure it will. The most well rounded list of those 3 is nymgar, which is running nym who is the poster child of rock/paper/scissors. I'm not sure you can currently build an effective list that will blunt some matchups without causing you to just punt to a lot of other things. I'm not even convinced nym is the distortion causing this.

Anyways, sorry I'm getting way off topic at this point. I think you're right - you can blunt matchups, like nym. I'm just not convinced that it's a good meta strategy. I think the winning gencon list will just be a tier one list that straight up dodged it's bad matchups, as silly as that sounds.

6 minutes ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

Amen. Jesus does that *snip* expansion ruin this game.

fix'd

Even the crew it came with and upgrade cards are ridiculous.

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Well they kind of do mean you do have high polarity matchups, by design. It's hard to do "combined arms" lists right now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is every major meta is doing one thing extremely well and running with it - there aren't a lot of generalist lists out there. I'm on mobile so it's hard to grab examples, but the if you're willing to run with the "tier one" lists being fair ship rebel, nymgar, and cruise aces for example each has doubled down into just doing one thing very well and mostly ignoring the rest.

Maybe we'll see it tone down some after gencon/Nova, but I'm not really sure it will. The most well rounded list of those 3 is nymgar, which is running nym who is the poster child of rock/paper/scissors. I'm not sure you can currently build an effective list that will blunt some matchups without causing you to just punt to a lot of other things. I'm not even convinced nym is the distortion causing this.

Anyways, sorry I'm getting way off topic at this point. I think you're right - you can blunt matchups, like nym. I'm just not convinced that it's a good meta strategy. I think the winning gencon list will just be a tier one list that straight up dodged it's bad matchups, as silly as that sounds.

That's possible. My listbuilding goals are typically to make something that I like to fly and that doesn't have terrible matchups. At some point you're going to have to rely on luck, either in matchup or in dice in a close game, and the latter option is more fun for me. I think that a good generalist list is going to have to have ships that all punch way above weight in their good matchups and aren't complete anchors in their bad matchups. This might not be possible right now, but I don't think it's fully explored, either.

As far as successful combined arms lists are concerned, Parattani and ODJ are totally combined arms lists, albeit with great action efficiency on top. RAC/Whisper is a combined arms list as well.

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

It has been correctly observed that PS 10 Nym makes life very hard for PS9 Imperial Aces. The Bomblet Generator and Autoblaster Turret and extreme maneuverability of Advanced Sensors Nym counter all of, say, Soontir Fel's strengths.

There's a funny thing about this game, though, it's not even that unjust. Fel is 34-35 points. The squirreliest Nym build is 43 points. That's a big difference. Nym should have a big advantage. The extreme one-sidedness of this matchup is not ideal, but look at Fel vs Rey or a Brobot or two TLTs, where Fel can punch way above his weight class.

Even better, Imperials have their own ship that causes Nym problems. Quickdraw, VI, FCS, and LWF costs 34 points, and is extraordinarily good against Nym. None of Nym's mobility tricks are that good agaisnt PS11, because he's flying blind. He can't even predict that well against Quickdraw because The rear arc gives Quickdraw too many good moves. Nym's lousy AGI1 means even Quickdraw's rear arc is doing damage. On top of all this, Quickdraw's 6 hit points aren't all that afraid of Bomblet Generator, and she sometimes can use it as a tool when she flies into Range 1 and gets two Range 1 shots before Nym will even get to fire at PS10.

This is a ship which has real and substantial advantages against Nym, and is very strong against almost everything else, and costs a good 9 points less than Nym. If Nym is unfair to PS9 aces, and costs more, and that is considered unjust, then what do you call it when Quickdraw is less than Nym and has an advantageous matchup?

Ok so what 30 points of imperials would you take to synergize with two ps9 aces? They've got nothing!

Sabaac at 24-27pts synergies with practically anything imps are fielding.

Multiple TIE Fighter junkies

A PS1 Defenderx7

Omega Leader

Dude seriously we have a ton of mini-aces in the 25-30pt range lol.

4 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

Ok so what 30 points of imperials would you take to synergize with two ps9 aces? They've got nothing!

Two Epsilon Squadron Pilots

But yeah, there's no shortage of quality in that point range.