Does Etahn allow another friendly ship to modify its Snap Shot hit into a crit? I would think the answer is pretty cut & dry (Etahn allows the attacker to modify this hit, so Snap Shot would block that), but the wording difference between Palpatine and M9-G8 (and M9-G8's FAQ) make it very unclear. :/

Edit: Same deal with attacking Omega Leader.

Snap Shot cannot be modified.

6 minutes ago, Parravon said:

Snap Shot cannot be modified.

Actually Snap Shot cannot be modified by the attacker. Other ships, be they friendly or enemy, can modify it.

"You cannot modify your attack dice", you referring to the ship using snap shot. Elusiveness can modify Snap Shot. M9-G8 can modify it too -- according to its faq, the M9-G8 ship is the source of the reroll instead of the attacker, nevermind the wording on the card itself ("the attacker must reroll that die").

So the question here is, is Etahn like M9-G8 (Etahn is the one doing the modification), or is there reason to interpret his card's language as written (the attacker does the modification)? FFG's language and logic is full of contradictions and exceptions, and I'm asking if anyone knows which side he falls on.

I assume the only reason he doesn't have a FAQ is no one flies him... Poor E-Wings, they deserve better. Though I do see Corran Horn from time to time.

I'm going to go with Etahn is the source of the modification, not the actual attacker (with Snap Shot), so although the attacker can't modify, Etahn can.

I don't think Ethan would let you change Snap Shot but it's hard to be definitive. M9-G8 works because the pilot who is carrying it triggers it's ability and forces a re-roll. It says "the attacker" re-rolls it but in practice that just means the player attacking picks the die up rather than their opponent. Etahn is granting the attacker an ability directly that they may or may not choose to exercise so when the opportunity arises they are unable to sue to Snap Shot's ability. At least that's how I'd rule it. It's not completely clear either way.

22 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

I don't think Ethan would let you change Snap Shot but it's hard to be definitive. M9-G8 works because the pilot who is carrying it triggers it's ability and forces a re-roll. It says "the attacker" re-rolls it but in practice that just means the player attacking picks the die up rather than their opponent. Etahn is granting the attacker an ability directly that they may or may not choose to exercise so when the opportunity arises they are unable to sue to Snap Shot's ability. At least that's how I'd rule it. It's not completely clear either way.

The way I see it, Etahn is essentially no different to M9-G8 in the way he infers a modification. M9-G8 is the source of the modification (reroll) and as such, can force a Snap Shot reroll. Etahn is worded similarly. So I would allow Etahn to modify.

But, when in doubt, ask FFG.

5 minutes ago, Parravon said:

The way I see it, Etahn is essentially no different to M9-G8 in the way he infers a modification. M9-G8 is the source of the modification (reroll) and as such, can force a Snap Shot reroll. Etahn is worded similarly. So I would allow Etahn to modify.

But, when in doubt, ask FFG.

Etahn and M9G8 are very differently worded, actually.

The droid forces the attacker to reroll a die he (as the ship where M9G8 is in) chooses. That makes that ship, not the attacker, the source of the modification.

Etahn allows other ship to modify a die it (as the attacking ship) chooses. That makes the attacker the source of the modification.

So that being the case, M9G8 can modify snap shot, and etahn can't.

1 minute ago, Willy Jarque said:

Etahn and M9G8 are very differently worded, actually.

The droid forces the attacker to reroll a die he (as the ship where M9G8 is in) chooses. That makes that ship, not the attacker, the source of the modification.

Etahn allows other ship to modify a die it (as the attacking ship) chooses. That makes the attacker the source of the modification.

So that being the case, M9G8 can modify snap shot, and etahn can't.

Originally I saw M9-G8 as being unable to modify a Snap Shot, as the card stated "The attacker must reroll that die.". And therefore the attacker was the one doing the modification. The FAQ proved that theory to be wrong, and established the ship with M9-G8 as the modification source. So it seems FFG have created a game mechanic that establishes the actual source of a modification could be a ship that's actually not the one rolling the dice. So if you can trigger a modification ability on a ship that's not actually doing the dice rolling, then it's an external source and completely possible.

An enemy ship must be in Etahn's firing arc and within Range 3 in order to trigger Etahn's ability, which then allows the attacker to modify a die. So I see Etahn as the modification source, not the attacker.

I could be wrong. It's happened before, and will probably happen again, but an answer from FFG is probably the only sure way to resolve this.

My take on this:

M9G8 says that the ship he is on MAY choose a red die, which the attacking ship MUST reroll. Once M9G8 has chosen the die, there is no choice about what happens.

Etahn's ability allows friendly ships to change a hit to a crit, there is nothing compulsory, and the friendly ship has a choice about doing so. Therefore, no way to overrule the Snap Shot 'cannot modify' clause.

As I said in other threads: the ship making the decission about the modification is the source (in particular, the one choosing wich dice and how are going to be modificated). Not the ship with the ability, not the ship who is attacking/defending. That's why M9G8 works against OL and with snap shot, and that's why you cannot Zuckuss OL.

Etahn allows other ship to choose and change a result. The one choosing is the attacker, so it is the source of the modification.

That's how I understand it, and I have found nothing that proves it wrong.

On the other hand, Etahn is worded like Howlrunner, not like M9G8, and we KNOW Howlrunner doesn't work with OL, so the friendly ship (and not Howlrunner) is the source of the modification.

FFG never answered my question about Targeting Synchronizer when I e-mailed them. I doubt they consider Etahn more worthy of a response. :/

BTW what you mentioned about Howlrunner is promising; if so, then that would help establish the idea of choosing the die determining source. But how do we KNOW that? Unfortunately there isn't a FAQ item listed for Howlrunner, so it'd be hard to cite during a game.

Etahn is not the source of the modification because he allows another ship to modify its dice, he does not force that ship to do so. If I was flying with a team-mate and he had Etahn A'baht with my target in arc at range 1-3, I could change one of my dice to a crit, but he could not force me to do so.

M9-G8 on the other hand, forces a ship to re-roll one of its attack dice. If I have an enemy ship target locked, I can make him re-roll one of his hits or crits during an attack, he probably wouldn't want to but since I'm the one modifying his dice, he doesn't get a say in the matter. It's the same behavior if you have a friendly ship target locked, it's just less likely to be at that ships detriment.

There are a few abilities where one ship modifies another ships attack dice including Elusiveness, Sensor Jammer, and R7 Astromech. All of these work on Snap Shot since the attacker is not the ship modifying his dice.

Etahn works just fine. People keep making up tests for who is/is not the source, when it's spelled out in the FAQ (see R7, M9G8, Palpatine, and Captain Jonus entries). The ship with the ability (in this case Etahn) is the source of the modification, and so yes you turn one into a crit even on a Snap Shot.

"The attacker (a ship you have locked that is attacking) must reroll that die"
FAQ: "When using M9-G8, the source of the reroll is the
ship equipped with M9-G8, not the ship attacking. For
example, if a ship is attacking with Snap Shot, a ship
equipped with M9-G8, can cause that ship to reroll
a die."

"The attacker (the ship attacking the one with the R7 astromech that this ship also has a target lock on) must reroll the chosen die"
FAQ: "If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends
against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify
dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability. Additionally, that ship
cannot resolve abilities that cause “Omega Leader” to reroll his dice (such as
R7 Astromech or Elusiveness), as these are abilities that modify dice"

It (friendly ship at Range 1 that is attacking with a secondary weapon) may reroll up to 2 die.
FAQ: "If another friendly ship performs multiple
attacks with a secondary weapon (such as
Cluster Missiles), Captain Jonus may use his
ability for each attack"

They are all the same. Regardless of wording, the ship with the ability is the one using that ability/the source of that ability. "You cannot modify" refers to the ship with Snap Shot, so if the ability is on another ship it can be used.

KineticOperator: After reviewing the thread and FAQ entries again, that's what makes most sense to me. When a separate ship allows for a reroll, that separate ship is the source of the modification. I think I'll go with that interpretation, as it makes sense to me and feels well-sourced. (BTW I'm helping someone on the wiki, but also asking out of my own interest because this comes up often enough).

Thanks everyone!

It is absolutely not the same to "allow for a reroll" and to "force a reroll".

It doesnt matter who has the ability. The one doing the modification is the ship using the ability. The one that makes the call of which die are being modified.

I keep posting because I know that in the tournaments I have been to this is indeed the ruling, and I want folks who come here asking questions to get the correct answer. It is consistent with and well supported by precedent, especially but not limited to the ones I posted here.

I understand that in any particular location there is a chance that a TO who is less conversant with the rules may judge this differently, but in the interest of providing new people with the best information possible I put this here.

Willy, you (and others) keep making that same or similar contention, and while I agree that it would make sense (more to the point, simply ruling that the cards mean exactly what they say would make sense) Snap Shot and Etahn work together just fine nonetheless. As do Snap Shot and Jonus by current precedent/understanding. More, while alternative assertions keep being made, there are zero precedents in the FAQ to support those assertions vs. multiple precedents to support the one I am putting forward. Rather than run the risk of getting pulled in personally (again), I'm just going to leave it here.

To be frank, if we were playing a game in person I would just let it go whatever way you prefer and pick lists accordingly rather than have any sort of argument or hard feelings. Whenever I play a game at any level I far prefer to simply defer to an opponent and simply try to play better, than to ruin what should be a good time for both of us for the sake of potentially winning a game. I just don't want new folks to be unpleasantly surprised if/when they play at a tournament and the ruling is not what they have been led to believe it is.

If we get a chance to play in person, I'll buy you a beer and we will play a great game. I will skip Snap Shot when we do..... :-)

9 hours ago, Willy Jarque said:

It is absolutely not the same to "allow for a reroll" and to "force a reroll".

It doesnt matter who has the ability. The one doing the modification is the ship using the ability. The one that makes the call of which die are being modified.

The Omega Leader entry in the FAQ would disagree with this flawed logic.

Quote

Omega Leader
If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, and Emperor Palpatine is equipped to a different enemy ship, the ship with Emperor Palpatine equipped may modify one of the locked ship’s dice.

It most definitely DOES matter who has the ability, as that's the source of the modification. And an outside source (like Palp) can modify against Omega Leader. The same applies to Etahn. As an outside source, he can modify one of the Snap Shot results.

The only logic that seems to unite all the things that OL blocks vs things he doesn't is that which ship chooses the di(c)e to be modified. If an outside ability allows a ship to choose (e.g. howlrunner, jonus) it's blocked. If an outside ability chooses and forces (palp or m9g8 on a ship not involved in the attack) it goes through.

This is consistent with the ruling on Elusiveness, r7, zuckuss crew etc, which choose dice and force OL to reroll but are blocked by his ability.

The ship that chooses is the ship doing the modification.

10 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

The only logic that seems to unite all the things that OL blocks vs things he doesn't is that which ship chooses the di(c)e to be modified. If an outside ability allows a ship to choose (e.g. howlrunner, jonus) it's blocked. If an outside ability chooses and forces (palp or m9g8 on a ship not involved in the attack) it goes through.

This is consistent with the ruling on Elusiveness, r7, zuckuss crew etc, which choose dice and force OL to reroll but are blocked by his ability.

The ship that chooses is the ship doing the modification.

That is not the only logic, but more to the point we don't need to guess. The logic behind the rulings is explicitly stated in the rulings I quoted above. More, your contention is directly contradicted by the FAQ.

Specifically; "Captain Jonus may use his ability for each attack". This ruling especially makes it VERY clear that he (Jonus) is the one using the ability even though it is another ship (the attacking ship) choosing the dice. It is not the attacking ship using Jonus' ability, it is Jonus himself using it.

Again, for clarity; "When using M9G8, the source of the reroll is the ship equipped with M9G8..." Not, "the ship choosing the dice", but "the ship equipped with".

*shrug* i'm being charitable. That's the only logic in OL's rulings but realistically they're pretty arbitrary.

Jonus' ruling hasn't been addressed directly against things which might block it (nor indeed howl's). It's currently a consensus assumption. An faq could go either way.

On 8/15/2017 at 1:13 AM, KineticOperator said:

Etahn works just fine. People keep making up tests for who is/is not the source, when it's spelled out in the FAQ (see R7, M9G8, Palpatine, and Captain Jonus entries). The ship with the ability (in this case Etahn) is the source of the modification, and so yes you turn one into a crit even on a Snap Shot.

"The attacker (a ship you have locked that is attacking) must reroll that die"
FAQ: "When using M9-G8, the source of the reroll is the
ship equipped with M9-G8, not the ship attacking. For
example, if a ship is attacking with Snap Shot, a ship
equipped with M9-G8, can cause that ship to reroll
a die."

"The attacker (the ship attacking the one with the R7 astromech that this ship also has a target lock on) must reroll the chosen die"
FAQ: "If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends
against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify
dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability. Additionally, that ship
cannot resolve abilities that cause “Omega Leader” to reroll his dice (such as
R7 Astromech or Elusiveness), as these are abilities that modify dice"

It (friendly ship at Range 1 that is attacking with a secondary weapon) may reroll up to 2 die.
FAQ: "If another friendly ship performs multiple
attacks with a secondary weapon (such as
Cluster Missiles), Captain Jonus may use his
ability for each attack"

They are all the same. Regardless of wording, the ship with the ability is the one using that ability/the source of that ability. "You cannot modify" refers to the ship with Snap Shot, so if the ability is on another ship it can be used.

There is an intentional difference between "you" and "it".

Has anyone ever had a decision or ruling on this?

I would tend to agree with KineticOperator that Etahn is the source of the modification and therefore it's allowed.

But I don't want to get into a debate with every opponent, and I'm planning a snap/crack A-Wing squad with Etahn as Swarm Leader.

50 minutes ago, ayedubbleyoo said:

Has anyone ever had a decision or ruling on this?

I would tend to agree with KineticOperator that Etahn is the source of the modification and therefore it's allowed.

But I don't want to get into a debate with every opponent, and I'm planning a snap/crack A-Wing squad with Etahn as Swarm Leader.

lol of course not.

Best course f action would be to ask the event TO how it would be ruled before the event.

Silly question I guess!

I'll probably never take it to an event, mainly for casual fun.

I think it's actually pretty simple.

The only time this should matter is on abilities that are not ON the ship in question, as in that case, the modification is coming from that ship.

If an ability is on a ship not the attacker (or the defender, in that case) (3rd party), look for two things:

1. Does the ability say "you may choose...the attacker [does something]"? If so, you (the 3rd party ship) are the source. (M9-G8, Palpatine)
2. Does the ability say "The attacker may..." (or defender)? In that case the attacker (or defender) is the source.

"You" always refers to the ship the ability or upgrade is on. If the 3rd party ability does not say "you [do something]", then chances are, it is not the source of the modification, and the attacker (or defender) is.

There are very few abilities off the top of my head that allow 3rd party modification, the best two (if not the only, those being the only ones I can think of immediately) examples being those already mentioned, M9-G8 and Palpatine, assuming they are not equipped to the ship doing the attacking or defending.