If a ship moving at speed 2 overlaps another ship... and then reducing it's speed by 1 along the maneuver template causes it the ship to overlap the maneuver template...

Is that position overlapping the maneuver template the legal position?

Yes. Page 8 of the RRG, 3rd bullet point under "Overlapping"

If a ship must execute a maneuver at a reduced speed due to overlapping another ship, it is allowed to overlap the maneuver tool in its final position.

That is the only legal time you can overlap the Maneuver tool, and it is written in the rulebook as such.

RRG Page 8, "Overlapping"

• If a ship must execute a maneuver at a reduced speed due to overlapping another ship, it is allowed to overlap the maneuver tool in its final position.

You expect me to read the rules?!

Yeah no, seriously thanks

1 hour ago, Stovrose38 said:

You expect me to read the rules?!

I don't expect anyone to read the Rules - well, not to the level I do.

That's why I Quote the Text

4 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I don't expect anyone to read the Rules - well, not to the level I do.

That's why I Quote the Text

I'm mortally offended!

It can be helpful to have that rule quote handy. I had an opponent at a tournament once nearly flip out when I overlapped his ship, went back a step on the tool, then landed overlapping the tool. He thought I was cheating (he also hated the ramming rules and tilted at the slightest provocation but that's another matter). I wasn't, but having a judge and/or rulebook handy to prove it definitely helps.

2 hours ago, Snipafist said:

It can be helpful to have that rule quote handy. I had an opponent at a tournament once nearly flip out when I overlapped his ship, went back a step on the tool, then landed overlapping the tool. He thought I was cheating (he also hated the ramming rules and tilted at the slightest provocation but that's another matter). I wasn't, but having a judge and/or rulebook handy to prove it definitely helps.

Yup. In fact I'd nominate this rule Most Likely To Piss Off People Who Didn't Read The RRG. Also, the one explaining which ship takes the damage when multiple were overlapped.

I've had probably ten tournament games in which I've had to stop and explain the ramming rules at length to my opponent. -_-

That reminds me:

If a ship would not overlap the maneuver tool regardless of which side of the ship the tool is placed on, the ship’s owner can choose which side to place the tool on.

Not important but it wouldn't be the first time I apply a "place left when turning left" fake rule.

To hijack this thread, how does the page 8 rule combine with the second half of that page 11 one?

Quote

If a ship must execute a maneuver at a reduced speed due to overlapping another ship, it is allowed to overlap the maneuver tool in its final position. [Page 8]

A ship cannot overlap the maneuver tool when the ship is placed in its final position. If it would overlap the maneuver tool, reset the ship’s position, insert the maneuver tool into the opposite side of the ship, and move the ship. [Page 11]

Obviously the page 8 rule overrides the first sentence of that page 11 rule. But does that negate the second half - or can you choose not to take advantage of the page 8 exception, and move the maneuver tool to the other side? The intention seems to be that you shouldn't be able to (both from the exception existing and the in-universe idea) - but it doesn't seem entirely clear.

Plus there doesn't seem to be anything explicit to say that after you overlap another ship you can't change the joints on the maneuver tool when carrying out the lower speed move. I'm happy that the rules come to that conclusion, but it is definitely something that has to be constructed from combining other rules, such as:

Quote

After the maneuver tool’s guides are inserted into the ship, the joints of the tool cannot be adjusted. [Page 11]

If a ship executes a maneuver and its final position would overlap another ship, it cannot finish its maneuver normally. [Page 8]

Instead, temporarily reduce its speed by one (without changing the speed dial [ no mention of the joints on the maneuver tool ]) and move the ship at the new speed. [Page 8]

To execute a maneuver with a ship, its owner proceeds through the following steps: 1. Determine Course: ... 2. Move Ship: Place the maneuver tool on the play area and insert the guides of the first segment into the notches on one side of the front of the ship's base. [Page 11]

You sort of have to assume either that the first rule listed there applies for all of the "Move Ship" step after the bolded "and" (obviously it doesn't apply before then) and that "mov[ing] the ship at the new speed" isn't a separate "Move Ship" step, or that the not adjusting rule keeps applying for the lower speed "Move Ship" steps if those are separate ones. It would be so easy to fix... they'd just have to add something about not changing the joints alongside the speed dial line.

At he bottom of the "Ship movement" section you're referring to, it also refers you to "overlapping", which tells you what to do if you overlap a ship.

49 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

You sort of have to assume either that the first rule listed there applies for all of the "Move Ship" step after the bolded "and" (obviously it doesn't apply before then) and that "mov[ing] the ship at the new speed" isn't a separate "Move Ship" step, or that the not adjusting rule keeps applying for the lower speed "Move Ship" steps if those are separate ones. It would be so easy to fix... they'd just have to add something about not changing the joints alongside the speed dial line.

While I don't disagree with you that the rule here could be presented more clearly, you have to remember that, as their most basic function, the game rules tell you what you can do. While sometimes they further modify that with things that you cannot do as a subset of those things (e.g., you can spend a defense token to resolve that token's effect in the general case, but then you can't do that if you've already spent a token of that type this turn), ultimately, the burden is on you the player to show that the rules allow you to do anything at all, rather than on me your opponent to show that they disallow you from doing something.

The rules allow you to change the joints of the maneuver tool during the determine course step (there is at least one other case as well). There is no indication that you reaccomplish the Determine Course step after overlapping, negating the primary criteria that provides permission for adjusting the joints on the maneuver tool.

8 hours ago, Snipafist said:

It can be helpful to have that rule quote handy. I had an opponent at a tournament once nearly flip out when I overlapped his ship, went back a step on the tool, then landed overlapping the tool. He thought I was cheating (he also hated the ramming rules and tilted at the slightest provocation but that's another matter). I wasn't, but having a judge and/or rulebook handy to prove it definitely helps.

Had I an opponent like that, I would ram his ships at every opportunity, while laughing maniacally.

2 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

Had I an opponent like that, I would ram his ships at every opportunity, while laughing maniacally.

After it became clear that he was going to tilt out no matter what I did and wasn't well-versed in ramming (presumably because his hatred of the ramming rules caused his local group to just... not ram in order to spare themselves his fury) and so therefore didn't consider it in his mental calculations, this is basically the approach I took (no laughing maniacally, however, I try to be polite). If you've got a huge self-inflicted blind spot and taking advantage of it makes you even worse at the game, opponents are going to do that because they're trying to win.

6 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

Had I an opponent like that, I would ram his ships at every opportunity, while laughing maniacally.

Laughing maniacally at this!

19 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yup. In fact I'd nominate this rule Most Likely To Piss Off People Who Didn't Read The RRG. Also, the one explaining which ship takes the damage when multiple were overlapped.

Really? I've only ever seen people react with mild bemusement at learning it's a possibility.

Conversely, ramming multiple ships causing the closest to take the damage can be counter intuitive depending on how you've rationalized the ramming rules and how the ships in question were aligned.

17 hours ago, Snipafist said:

After it became clear that he was going to tilt out no matter what I did and wasn't well-versed in ramming (presumably because his hatred of the ramming rules caused his local group to just... not ram in order to spare themselves his fury) and so therefore didn't consider it in his mental calculations, this is basically the approach I took (no laughing maniacally, however, I try to be polite). If you've got a huge self-inflicted blind spot and taking advantage of it makes you even worse at the game, opponents are going to do that because they're trying to win.

20 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

Had I an opponent like that, I would ram his ships at every opportunity, while laughing maniacally.

Something something choleric tempers something something Sun Tzu....


I have a few players in my local group that are very susceptible to specific play styles, it does make all the difference when they start to tilt.

During a CC event, when I heard my teammate got crushed, I had to shift strategies just to avoid losing anything. My opponent was fuming, I was able to arc dodge and avoid his fighters until he made a huge mistake separating one of his ships from the group. I got demo and a wave of Relayed bombers in just before for the end of the match to sink his liberty and pull off a win. That was the first time I realized most of the players at my store have a trigger.

Since they're all my friends, I try not to screw with 'em during casual matches, but on tournament day, all's fair.

See, I never 'tilt' or lose my temper, regardless of circumstances.... But when I realize someone will and their trigger,. Can't help myself, the Dark Side takes over....?????

I don't think I've ever had someone 'tilt', but there was this one player at a tourney last fall...my ships kept dodging his main arcs and blocking his movement paths...while always having good shots in return.

No Ackbar broadsides was his 'trigger'. In the end he got one of my ships before getting tabled. Had all sorts of excuses...dice...lucky maneuvers...

but it was actually the maneuver tool, lots of nav and knowledge of how ships can move and can't - including inside turns and ramming to overlap the tool.

On 8/13/2017 at 9:52 AM, ovinomanc3r said:

That reminds me:

If a ship would not overlap the maneuver tool regardless of which side of the ship the tool is placed on, the ship’s owner can choose which side to place the tool on.

Not important but it wouldn't be the first time I apply a "place left when turning left" fake rule.

No.

One of the things that is factored into every maneuver chart is the ability to take an "inside turn." Two obvious examples are the Gozanti Cruisers and the Hammerhead Corvette. And these wildly open maneuver options to commanders willing to take risks and exploit all of their maneuver options.

These turns can help out additional distance between you and your opponents and can even serve to provide a mild braking effect on ships at low speeds or at the edge of firing ranges. On the rare occasions where you can combine it with the ramming rules, you can make a turn so absurdly tight that it can effectively be a pivot in place, letting a prepared commander present a more powerful weapon battery or fully shielded hull zone in place of a weakened flank. This is a great tactical flexibility that the fame needs and that adds depth to slow and less maneuverable ships.

13 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

See, I never 'tilt' or lose my temper, regardless of circumstances.... But when I realize someone will and their trigger,. Can't help myself, the Dark Side takes over....?????

Good, good. Give into your anger. Use your aggressive feelings. Let the hate flow through you. Strike him down with all your hatred and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete.

13 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

No.

One of the things that is factored into every maneuver chart is the ability to take an "inside turn." Two obvious examples are the Gozanti Cruisers and the Hammerhead Corvette. And these wildly open maneuver options to commanders willing to take risks and exploit all of their maneuver options.

These turns can help out additional distance between you and your opponents and can even serve to provide a mild braking effect on ships at low speeds or at the edge of firing ranges. On the rare occasions where you can combine it with the ramming rules, you can make a turn so absurdly tight that it can effectively be a pivot in place, letting a prepared commander present a more powerful weapon battery or fully shielded hull zone in place of a weakened flank. This is a great tactical flexibility that the fame needs and that adds depth to slow and less maneuverable ships.

Well that's the thing. I said it is a fake rule.