2 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

This guy tried to go from general XWM to competitive only and it didn't exactly take off. When you divide a niche community, you're not left with much. But, you might find a handful of like-minded people there.

https://www.reddit.com/r/xwing

See how much FUN acewing is gang?

25 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Its the dismissive attitude that implies insult rather than explicit language. For instance here in this thread, by stating that you are unable to personally find reason for there to be discussion about a list if said discussion is not about the list in a competitive environment and so you ask for what type of feedback someone might want, you are implying that, to you, there is no obvious reason for there to be conversation about casual lists, ergo casual gameplay discussions lack defined purpose and therefore lacks discussion value, and that leads to those threads are effectively just ******** up the forums, therefore the opinions of casual game players are unwanted here.

Implicit insult. Likely not intended, but there it is. /shrug

Apologies, I wasn't being clear.

It's not that I don't value conversations about casual formats. For context, I prefer playing competitive but I don't take it super seriously. I never fly high-end meta squads and don't have high aspirations as to my performance. I just like how simple and easy it is to set up and play 5 rounds in a day.

But I respect and appreciate casual play too, it's just not what I'm into. I think this community needs both casual and competitive players in it.

When I see a thread that is clearly a casual play thread (HotAC, custom card league, etc), I usually just don't click on it, as I have nothing of value to add.

But sometimes it isn't clear what type of thread it is. Just "what do you think of this list?" Competitive players are going to respond through that lens, even if that isn't the kind of feedback desired.

That said, statements like "it'll lose to dengaroo" have little value even if they are coming from a place of trying to help. It is insultingly dismissive and lazy. Those comments annoy me plenty too.

But at the end of the day, a casual player is soliciting replies and receiving dismissive ones is still less insulting then a casual player hopping into a competitive thread with no goal other than antagonize competitive players.

I just don't see competitive players jumping into HotAC threads and telling everyone they're playing X-wing wrong. But the reverse happens all. The. Time.

55 minutes ago, Sekac said:

But at the end of the day, a casual player is soliciting replies and receiving dismissive ones is still less insulting then a casual player hopping into a competitive thread with no goal other than antagonize competitive players.

I just don't see competitive players jumping into HotAC threads and telling everyone they're playing X-wing wrong. But the reverse happens all. The. Time.

I agree the level of snark from the "militant casuals" is not beneficial to anyone and is likely just more noise than signal sometimes in threads. Perhaps its just pent up anger blowing off steam at the lack of attention by FFG given to alternative methods of playing as well as dismissive remarks from those that do refer to casual discussions that are clearly marked by the OP as non-competitive discussions as "dumb fluff farting".

I don't know.

I do know that keeping it known that there are other methods of playing X-Wing TMG other than competative 100/6 is beneficial to players. But yeah, it probably doesn't need to be thrown around as much and is a source of friction in the community.

7 hours ago, Sekac said:

When I see a thread that is clearly a casual play thread (HotAC, custom card league, etc), I usually just don't click on it, as I have nothing of value to add.

I just don't see competitive players jumping into HotAC threads and telling everyone they're playing X-wing wrong. But the reverse happens all. The. Time.

Um, but if you usually don't click on casual threads, how could you see competitive players jumping on them?

6 hours ago, kris40k said:

I agree the level of snark from the "militant casuals" is not beneficial to anyone and is likely just more noise than signal sometimes in threads. Perhaps its just pent up anger blowing off steam at the lack of attention by FFG given to alternative methods of playing as well as dismissive remarks from those that do refer to casual discussions that are clearly marked by the OP as non-competitive discussions as "dumb fluff farting".

I don't know.

I do know that keeping it known that there are other methods of playing X-Wing TMG other than competative 100/6 is beneficial to players. But yeah, it probably doesn't need to be thrown around as much and is a source of friction in the community.

I was under the assumption that 'filthy casual" was a playful moniker; if I am wrong, I will stop using it.

A while ago, I made a request for an Epic/Casual subforum and was vigorously shot down. I was told that appropriate thread labels were all that was needed. So a I guess this thread just chaffed in an already raw spot.

And I guess the thread title just is a bit arrogant in its assumption that as a non-competitive player, I have nothing of "quality" to say.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

And I guess the thread title just is a bit arrogant in its assumption that as a non-competitive player, I have nothing of "quality" to say.

Neither do I...

The best place is this forum. But you will always receive responses commensurate to the effort and effectiveness of the OP you start with.

Starting with an attitude will yield confirmation biased responses.

Ask a vague question and you'll get vague answers.

Start with a smart, well thought out, and clearly explained premise and you'll see like dialogue in return.

In simpler terms; garbage in, garbage out. (Presuming quality discussion isn't had here is garbage. Complaining about a lack of good discussion instead of starting one is also garbage.)

38 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

And I guess the thread title just is a bit arrogant in its assumption that as a non-competitive player, I have nothing of "quality" to say.

Well, if you want to create a sculpture, you wouldn't ask a musician about how to best sculpt. Creating music and creating a sculpture are both forms of artistic expression, but much different in execution.

It's not that a strictly casual player would have nothing of quality to share. The musician would have plenty of valid information to share with other musicians. It's just that they wouldnt have the expertise in what a sculpture is looking for, so they essentially add less to the conversation than those with the expertise.

Strictly casual players apply this type of rhetoric all the time. When a competitive player spouts how awful a certain ship is, they quickly let them know that said ship is great for mission/epic play and their input is not valid in these cases.

13 hours ago, Sekac said:

For whatever reason, the X-wing community has always had a greater degree of hostile casuals snapping at competitive players while simultaneously feeling victimized.

I can guarantee you the hostile competitive player at fault doesn't carry around a melodramatic nickname with him to show off how abused he is.

Despite the fact that this will only further make me sound like a whiner. . .

It's hard not to feel a bit victimized as a casual player in this game. "Competitive" players are getting exactly the game they want: a standard format, and 100% of the devs' focus on making that format successful. Wave after wave is designed to alter the meta, rebalance ships, and bring underperforming ships back up to spec in the tournament scene. They have nothing to complain about except that the devs haven't fixed their favorite ship yet. It is painfully obvious that what FFG thinks about, nearly exclusively, is the tournament-based version of the game.

Casual players are told they should be happy about all this, because an awesome tournament scene can only trickle down into a great casual game. Which completely ignores the fact that the game does not play the same at 300 points on 6x3. Or that "kill them all" is only one possible end point. Or any of a dozen other ways this game could be different than "gladiators to the death in space."

Things that a narrative player would like to see are often dismissed as "fluff" or "duplicating a filled design space."

Epic players get a new fix once every 500 to 600 days when a Huge ship is released. And is it exclusively for them? Heck no; it will feature a fix to a small ship or a tournament-worthy upgrade, making it yet another gift to the competitive crowd.

When a casual player asks for something in the game, the usual response is "well, if you're not at a tournament, you can DIY anything you want because who cares at that point."

Lastly, many of the best things about casual (like HotAC) aren't even official. Which only shows that there is a void that could be filled, if only FFG would.

So, yeah, I guess as a casual player I often feel like Cinderella vs. the favored siblings. And, as the favored group, you don't need a melodramatic nickname.

12 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

I would love an Epic/Cinematic Play only forum but I know it wouldn't be feasible.

Why not? It's just a tab on a server somewhere.

Personally I am a casual player who likes to rip it up at tournaments from time to time. This polarisation of extremes is ridiculous. the fact is there are whiny clowns on both ends, and no doubt in the middle too

17 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

It is painfully obvious that what FFG thinks about, nearly exclusively, is the tournament-based version of the game

Do you have any thoughts on why this might be? I'm not saying you don't have any reason to be upset, but if this is the route FFG is taking, there is a possibility it may simply be the best one for them financially.

17 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Epic players get a new fix once every 500 to 600 days when a Huge ship is released. And is it exclusively for them? Heck no; it will feature a fix to a small ship or a tournament-worthy upgrade, making it yet another gift to the competitive crowd.

What issue do you have with this? Isn't this exactly the correct way to do it? If FFG didn't pull the competitive crowd into buying epics, it very well be something they focused on even less as sales would be lower, and it also would mean less players would even attempt to play epic because they would never be saying "hey, I bought this for a pretty penny. I should probably take it for a spin at least once." before they get hooked.

This is the only point you bring up that makes me think you simply don't want competitive players to be able to enjoy the things you do in their own way.

17 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

When a casual player asks for something in the game, the usual response is "well, if you're not at a tournament, you can DIY anything you want because who cares at that point."

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but I always thought this was a calling card of the casual scene. The "we can play how we want, so we can fly anything!" moniker Joe Boss shares in every other thread.

I would take pride in that. I know when I play casual that is one of my very favorite things about it is that you don't have to bend to FFGs often limiting formats.

17 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Lastly, many of the best things about casual (like HotAC) aren't even official. Which only shows that there is a void that could be filled, if only FFG would.

If it's a bone to pick with FFG you have, then this is a totally fair one to pick at. I think just about everyone who has ever played the game and enjoyed it can get behind this. We should be greatful for those who have put in the time to make successful campaign oriented play experiences for the time being though.

35 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Why not? It's just a tab on a server somewhere.

Well, I guess it's technically feasible. I just doubt it would have a significant amount of traffic.

To be honest, I never fully understood this weird division between competitive and casual. I mean . . . I guess if you asked me I would say I'm a competitive player because I go to tournaments, but it's not like that means I fly only T1 lists. In fact, I generally try to avoid doing so; I play to have fun. I play lists with A-Wings and Z-95s in them. I play 89 point lists, and my next tournament squad is two Upsilons. But it's not like I'm just some casual who goes to tourneys to get crushed; I generally expect to make the cut and I've got some decent finishes to my name. And it's also not like I build a list thinking "THIS HAS TO BE COMPETITIVE OR CASUAL, BUT CAN'T BE BOTH." When I make a squad, I want it to be the best it can be, while still being what it is. If I fly two Upsilons, it'll be two good Upsilons, dammit. If I fly Corran and Wedge, it'll be a good Corran and a good Wedge. Why can't something be competitive and casual? Why can't I play HotAC and play in tournaments?

I'd love to see some more focused casual and competitive content. Just brainstorming (forgive me if these already exist in subforums I don't frequent):

Casual

- @Joe Boss Red Seven's X-Wing House Rules

- The Community Custom Scenario League

- HotAC on the Forum (someone set up the scenarios in Vassal and post screenshots in the thread. Everyone who's signed up, post your dial in spoilers. Thread starter rolls the AI moves - or plays as the AI).

Competitive

- The Fair Ship Rebels Thread (builds, matchups, and tactics for Fair Ship Rebels, maintained over months - like the Triple T-70 thread - repeated for each main archetype)

- What's Your Dial? (post screenshots of game situations constructed in Vassal. Discuss optimal maneuver choices)

- Critique My Game (similar: post screenshot series from Vassal games or photos from physical games and discuss mistakes made in obstacle placement, setup, and maneuver, action, and target selection)

As you can see, a lot of these ideas involve putting the table onto the forums. It's been suggested in some other threads that the salt tends to build up on the forums because we are able to spend far more time here than at the table playing. We're spinning our wheels, and the machine's getting hot and belching steam. (The complaints are largely valid, but we rehash them a fair bit.) I'd love it if we were able to discuss the chief pillar of the game, maneuvering, on the forums in addition to listbuilding, balance, desirable products, and all the other topics. Maybe that would let us let off some steam and cause the machine to start generating pew-pew noises and victories instead.

2 minutes ago, TheHumanHydra said:

I'd love to see some more focused casual and competitive content. Just brainstorming (forgive me if these already exist in subforums I don't frequent):

Casual

- @Joe Boss Red Seven's X-Wing House Rules

- The Community Custom Scenario League

- HotAC on the Forum (someone set up the scenarios in Vassal and post screenshots in the thread. Everyone who's signed up, post your dial in spoilers. Thread starter rolls the AI moves - or plays as the AI).

The funny thing is that a lot of what I do here in my Battle Parlor makes sense STAR WARS Game wise and sure enough FFG will often come up with something very like it or just exactly like it... months or years later...lol.

I do many things that FFG will never do of course; like allowing Jedi Powers, Veteran MODs, and double Energy on Huge Ships, but that is what I like.

1 hour ago, Ailowynn said:

To be honest, I never fully understood this weird division between competitive and casual. I mean . . . I guess if you asked me I would say I'm a competitive player because I go to tournaments, but it's not like that means I fly only T1 lists. In fact, I generally try to avoid doing so; I play to have fun. I play lists with A-Wings and Z-95s in them. I play 89 point lists, and my next tournament squad is two Upsilons. But it's not like I'm just some casual who goes to tourneys to get crushed; I generally expect to make the cut and I've got some decent finishes to my name. And it's also not like I build a list thinking "THIS HAS TO BE COMPETITIVE OR CASUAL, BUT CAN'T BE BOTH." When I make a squad, I want it to be the best it can be, while still being what it is. If I fly two Upsilons, it'll be two good Upsilons, dammit. If I fly Corran and Wedge, it'll be a good Corran and a good Wedge. Why can't something be competitive and casual? Why can't I play HotAC and play in tournaments?

I completely agree with you. I would call myself a casual tournament player, if that makes sense - last tournament one of the better local players told me he likes that I always show up with my own lists. He even said (but I disagree) "you're the only creative guy around here". (I then told him that I actually for the first time wanted to bring an imperial meta list but failed at bringing it with me...)

But I will still try to make my own list as good as possible, with some immutable conditions, e.g. I'll have at least one A-wing in there. And I try to win. However, and this is where the casual comes back: my "operational parameters", to quote Dee, are that I always try to remind my opponent of missed actions (FCS, extra die, ...) while I also try to never ask for any leniency. That's just the way I like to play the game. So am I a filthy casual or a WAAC competitive? Change the "all" to "determined" and I'd say I'm both.

4 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

The best place is this forum. But you will always receive responses commensurate to the effort and effectiveness of the OP you start with.

I'm on about half a dozen X-Wing discussions and this forum is BY FAR the worst one.

16 hours ago, GrogEgrog said:

But how do you keep out the plethora of doom and gloomers?

I would expect people do that by them selves!

So; I've been struggling with this for a while now too. I only really get a sensible discussion when I ask about 3 of my friends when it comes to x-wing. Whilst there are some fantastic, experienced, intelligent and articulate people on this forum; they often get drowned out by the same naysayers and circular arguments.

As per @Kdubb's suggestion; I just set up a Discord server which I intend to administrate and use for more streamlined communication. It's specifically geared towards the South of the UK area (as that's where I live) and I've set up a bunch of channels for local events, list building, HotAC etc.

I'm not sue what it's like for everyone else but locally we have a lot of posturing and politics when it comes to FLGS and their owners. I, for one, will welcome the chance to have conversations without them being watched by the power struggle muppets. Honestly; the worst thing i ever did was getting involved with an FLGS and being dragged into the politics, but I digress...

Anyone keen on joining the server? Drop me a PM.

On 8/13/2017 at 1:45 AM, Ailowynn said:

Try r/xwingtmg on Reddit. Don't know if it's great but it's better than here.

I'm not a big fan of Reddit, but I'll check it out. Thanks.

@Smutpedler FLGS politics and power struggles? Well, now I am intrigued...

@MrAndersson I'm on r/xwingtmg regularly myself. You'll likely not find much better there, as previously mentioned, someone similarly dissatisfied even tried to splinter off a "competative only" reddit from that by creating r/xwing and that splinter subreddit is pretty slow moving.

But ya know, have at it. Everyone's favorite @ParaGoomba Slayer can be found regularly on r/xwingtmg.

I have one friend with which I exchange emails with about X-Wing builds, strategies, etc, on a routine basis. We can critique each other's ideas without fear of it derailing. I think the only way to get a similar experience in this forum would be to make a "Competitive builds and strategies" thread in the "squad list" sub forum. The initial post could have a few guidelines along "Keep it clean, avoid responding to rants and try to stay constructive."

It's doable.

20 hours ago, Sekac said:

But the thing you don't see competitive players do is competitive players attacking casual players for being casual.

On 8/12/2017 at 7:20 PM, MrAndersson said:

So, as the topic says, where can I discuss the competitive side of this game without having to filter through all the idiots and their comments?

You don't usually see people outright say they dislike casual players, but you definitely see posts like this. To me, it says if you aren't a serious tournament type then you are an idiot. It's not usually a direct insult, but it's there. It's also in all the comments where people say "maybe this game isn't for you".

To the OP, I've found it important to post in the initial post about either being strictly tournament or strictly casual. It tends to avoid the contusion.

That or just start threads with:

[Competitive] Topic

Disclaimer: this thread will focus on a competitive aspect of X-Wing. Please be constructive, respectful and have fun!

4 minutes ago, kris40k said:

@Smutpedler FLGS politics and power struggles? Well, now I am intrigued...

@MrAndersson I'm on r/xwingtmg regularly myself. You'll likely not find much better there, as previously mentioned, someone similarly dissatisfied even tried to splinter off a "competative only" reddit from that by creating r/xwing and that splinter subreddit is pretty slow moving.

But ya know, have at it. Everyone's favorite @ParaGoomba Slayer can be found regularly on r/xwingtmg.

Much as I would love to publicly name and shame; it won't help. Feel free to PM me if you want a chat about it.

9 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

You don't usually see people outright say they dislike casual players, but you definitely see posts like this. To me, it says if you aren't a serious tournament type then you are an idiot. It's not usually a direct insult, but it's there. It's also in all the comments where people say "maybe this game isn't for you".

To the OP, I've found it important to post in the initial post about either being strictly tournament or strictly casual. It tends to avoid the contusion.

It is not casual players I am against. I enjoy the casual side of X-Wing as well.

But when I want to discuss the competitive side of the game, I want a serious discussion with well founded arguments from people who are at least decent players. Not a bunch of stupid memes or opinions about aspects of the game that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

And as an afterthought, maybe I should have avoided words like "idiot" altogether, even though it fairly accurately describes how I feel when I read certain threads here.