20 minutes ago, Stu35 said:

No i meant overconfidence. Blue neutral, reroll 2 dice then remove the lowest result.

In other words zero cost guaranteed one dice gone.

But yes. Confidence too, also available to hero blue.

Point is that every removal card in the game has some sort of cost. Theres not a zero cost card which lets you just remove a dice. Certainly not one such card for every colour except hero blue.

AH, thought you meant cost as in actual resource cost.

24 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Overconfidence costs 1 resource.

Ah of course. Thought it was zero for some reason.

20 hours ago, Abyss said:

Anyway, Vibroknife...It's not broken.... It's too good a silver bullet for something that is meant to be a fundamental part of the game. Would people be okay with a card that said 'While this dice is in your pool, your opponent can't gain resources'? 'Can't discard cards from your hand'? 'Can't deal X kind of damage'? Vibroknife single handily makes shields look like a bad idea, as any melee deck can completely nullify their effectiveness for two resources.

This is actually my definition of "broken". A lot of people think a card isn't broken until/unless it single-handedly dominates the entire meta. IMHO, the trigger arrives earlier than that. When a card has an influence on the game which is completely outsized for its costs/drawbacks, then it is a broken card. This is actually easy to see by comparing Vibroknife to other similar effects. Put another way, I don't believe a card has to completely break the game to be broken, it just has to be completely off the scale compared to everything else in terms of cost/benefit.

Vibroknife does exactly this. Its cost is on par with other upgrades with similar dice. Its "limiting" condition is trivial. It has no drawbacks beyond opportunity cost, and it's close enough that that doesn't really count. Its effect is massive, making not only shields but literally every other damage-stopping effect in the game irrelevant.

8 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

This is actually my definition of "broken". A lot of people think a card isn't broken until/unless it single-handedly dominates the entire meta. IMHO, the trigger arrives earlier than that. When a card has an influence on the game which is completely outsized for its costs/drawbacks, then it is a broken card.

Welcome to the wonderful world of CCGs; where all similar cost cards are not equal (or even useful).

Anger costs 0, sort of? and it's better than removal

41 minutes ago, Stone37 said:

Welcome to the wonderful world of CCGs; where all similar cost cards are not equal (or even useful).

...and pedantic max-extreme straw man arguments are the order of the day.

Nobody expects that every possible card will be exactly equal for its cost. But that doesn't mean that there is not a desirable expected range of cost:benefit that should be adhered to.

26 minutes ago, nismojoe said:

Anger costs 0, sort of? and it's better than removal

The situational cost of Anger is massive, though. I've tried to work it into Vader and Palp decks with little success. Having 2 dice sitting on the table blank while your opponent lets a damage side sit there is actually harder to do than you'd think.

3 hours ago, Krazed said:

The situational cost of Anger is massive, though. I've tried to work it into Vader and Palp decks with little success. Having 2 dice sitting on the table blank while your opponent lets a damage side sit there is actually harder to do than you'd think.

That's what manipulate is for. Palp decks are much more difficult due to the limited dice that can be out.

Yer overconfidence dosent count. As its blue neural, not blue hero.

15 hours ago, Buhallin said:

...and pedantic max-extreme straw man arguments are the order of the day.

Nobody expects that every possible card will be exactly equal for its cost. But that doesn't mean that there is not a desirable expected range of cost:benefit that should be adhered to.

That wasn't an argument... it was my own personal jab (and showing of dislike for the model) at CCGs. There is a part of me that is really pissed off that I allowed FFG to lure me back into the crap fest that is CCGs with my favorite IP Star Wars.

That being said... I think I can make an argument that FFG has actually created and maintained a pretty good standard in this game thus far. While some cards are clearly better than others, the "value" of said card can be seen and I have yet to feel that a card is under-cost.

Let's take a look at the 2 cost Vibroknife:

Three damage sides, only value more than a 1 is a modified side, it has ambush, and an ability that effects melee damage.

Let's compare it to the F-11D Rifle:

This upgrade also has three damage sides 2 sides are modifiers and 2 sides are worth more than 1. The largest damage side has a cost to play. It has a special and Redeploy. To balance out the extreme value of redeploy, this upgrade only has one side that does damage without needing another dice or a resource.

Yes, I am arguing that this card is of about the same value as Vibroknife. While ambush is a great one time trick, redeploy is the card that just won't go away. While we might not all agree with FFG's value assessment, clearly one is in place. This, of course, is a low sampling (only two cards) but I believe this could be done across the board for any 2 cost upgrade. Similarly, a standard for 1 cost or 3 cost can be found as well.

What should actually be noted is F-11D is it has 3 damage sides with that special. 3 of them being 3 damage all of them having some sort of cost whether situational cost or resource cost except 1 who's only cost is your opponent chooses how they take that damage. So ya that is a pretty good example of what i was talking about with saying that Vibro isnt really "better" then some other 2 cost upgrades. If the person isnt taking shields it's strictly worse then the F-11D. There really is just NO Melee weapons at 2 though, its Vibro, Rey's Staff for heroes, Gaffi stick for Villains, then we use Makashi training which has a built in defense to vibro knife and monster melee sides along with 2 +2 damage sides instead of one so as long as you can reliably get melee damage showing and your opponent isnt taking shields again Makashi training will just be stronger.

Yet F11-D doesn't trivialize an entire aspect of the game. Vibroknife, by itself, pushes Shield decks out of the meta. In the same way Thermal with Poe pushes 3/4 wide out of the meta. Shield and 3 character decks still work (obviously, Funkar is huge right now) but it is a serious concern that the deck has to worry about. Vibroknife just literally guts a Han or Qui-Gon shield deck deck.

Vibroknife makes Dooku, Qui-Gon, Han looks bad and also all the shield generating cards like Dug in, Caution, Diplomatic Immunity etc. irrelevant for the game and that's bad. It's die is so-so but the ability is OP.

4 hours ago, Stone37 said:

That wasn't an argument... it was my own personal jab (and showing of dislike for the model) at CCGs. There is a part of me that is really pissed off that I allowed FFG to lure me back into the crap fest that is CCGs with my favorite IP Star Wars.

My apologies for misunderstanding your point.

4 hours ago, Stone37 said:

... and an ability that effects melee damage.

This sort of glosses the point, doesn't it? Go For the Kill "affects ranged damage", so does that mean they're equal effects?

Remember Vibroknife is specific to Melee damage which means it is only useful in certain deck types. Also it's 2 cost puts it in the wheelhouse for Imperial Inspection and as with all Upgrades we need to remember EaW is bringing us actual Upgrade discard Events.

1 minute ago, Joelist said:

Remember Vibroknife is specific to Melee damage which means it is only useful in certain deck types. Also it's 2 cost puts it in the wheelhouse for Imperial Inspection and as with all Upgrades we need to remember EaW is bringing us actual Upgrade discard Events.

This is all irrelevant. Everything that can counter Vibroknife will also counter any other upgrade in a similar class, so it does nothing to change Vibroknife's comparative calculation. Only working for half the damage in the game also isn't much of a limitation, since decks will use it or not based on design and by the time it hits the table it's not a limitation at all.

Sorry, but all of these factors ARE relevant when looking at any card. Because it works only on Melee it is useless in a Ranged damage deck. Because it can be hit by Imperial Inspection and also the upcoming Upgrade discarders in Empire at War there is recourse against it. Whether these elements apply to other cards is what is irrelevant.

1 hour ago, Joelist said:

Sorry, but all of these factors ARE relevant when looking at any card. Because it works only on Melee it is useless in a Ranged damage deck. Because it can be hit by Imperial Inspection and also the upcoming Upgrade discarders in Empire at War there is recourse against it. Whether these elements apply to other cards is what is irrelevant.

If you're going to consider comparative strengths of cards (which is really what's important) common factors vanish. Survival Gear is a pretty awful 2-cost upgrade. Is it any better or worse than Vibroknife because it's also vulnerable to Inspection? No, because it's equal. You factor it out and ignore it. If you want to compare Vibroknife to a 3-cost upgrade, then "Vulnerable to Inspection" becomes a factor, because it's a difference between the cards and you now have to consider it.

No card in the game exists in a vacuum. Every card you put into your deck is taking a slot away from another card, so every choice has an opportunity cost. Sure, there are ways to deal with Vibroknife, just like there are any other upgrade. But if you're trying to use any of the defensive options in the game, is there a question of what you'd Inspect, or Disarm? I run Confiscation SOLELY to handle Vibroknife. I know lots of other people who make similar deck design decisions. Nobody's going to burn a Disarm on Survival Gear, but I've had more than a few games turn entirely on when Vibroknife shows up, and whether I could get rid of it. There's not another upgrade in the game that carries that level of threat.

For a card that is broken to the core, why does FN overwrite Vibroknife with his other weapons?

5 minutes ago, Amanal said:

For a card that is broken to the core, why does FN overwrite Vibroknife with his other weapons?

Probably because FN's OP ability generates more value than the vibro knife does long term, plus if your dropping a 3 cost weapon your protecting yourself from imp inspection.

Just because it's not the best card in every situation doesn't mean that it's not OP to begin with

Imperial Inspection applies regardless of what you are playing, once you see it come out it has to affect how or what you play. I don't feel that this has anything to do with the card being on FN or not.

Similarly Vibroknife (VK hereafter) only gains comparative advantage when your opponent has the ability to block damage. So in a Qui-Gon deck or when you play Riposte the value of those shields isn't in what they can block in any case.

But then that is entirely your point isn't it, the value of the VK is situational, and it seems to be finding itself in that situation a lot? Now, that seems like a meta problem, can you do something to change the situation you find yourself in?

I tend to ask how can you solve the problem that VK presents itself? I think you can out damage it (it isn't exactly a killer dice and because there is a reluctance to overwrite it there is a slowness to the ramp up the deck gets and that can affect damage mitigation), steal it with General Greivious, disarm it or just hit it with dice removal (when you have shields or such) or return it to your opponents hand and hit him with discard.

23 hours ago, Buhallin said:

My apologies for misunderstanding your point.

This sort of glosses the point, doesn't it? Go For the Kill "affects ranged damage", so does that mean they're equal effects?

Go for the Kill is an event card. I don't think it is fair to judge the "value to cost" of cards outside of their type, color, and faction.

VK is an auto-include in a melee type deck. Anything auto include should be re-evaluated to determine if it is helping or hurting the overall game.

IMO VK is hurting the game. It makes all shield cards and character effects useless for a low cost. It is also not unique so can be fielded by two melee characters at once, making removal very difficult.

The simple errata would be to limit its ability to dice its dice sides that show melee damage. It is still powerful but not automatic when rolled out.

A card like salvage stand is also an auto include in any Unkar deck, but the overall game effect is not broken.

If they decide to fix VK, then I hope they get around to fixing FN and Rey abilities to: the 'first time each round...'

1 hour ago, Alphastealer said:

VK is an auto-include in a melee type deck. Anything auto include should be re-evaluated to determine if it is helping or hurting the overall game.

IMO VK is hurting the game. It makes all shield cards and character effects useless for a low cost. It is also not unique so can be fielded by two melee characters at once, making removal very difficult.

The simple errata would be to limit its ability to dice its dice sides that show melee damage. It is still powerful but not automatic when rolled out.

A card like salvage stand is also an auto include in any Unkar deck, but the overall game effect is not broken.

If they decide to fix VK, then I hope they get around to fixing FN and Rey abilities to: the 'first time each round...'

I can't say I've ever played a game and thought "If it wasn't for that Vibroknife I'd have a chance of winning..."

The only deck this is close to being an auto include in is straight melee decks. These decks are vulnerable in many different ways because of their single damage type. I honestly do not think Vibroknife is any better or worse than Holdout Blaster (an auto include for many types of decks). They are good cards, but do not break the game.

On 8/17/2017 at 8:41 AM, Stone37 said:

I can't say I've ever played a game and thought "If it wasn't for that Vibroknife I'd have a chance of winning..."

You don't try much control, do you?

Control and mill decks have to survive. That's hard to begin with, but when you take away any defensive options it's downright silly. I used to play Jabba/Dooku with moderate success, Vibroknife put Dooku on the shelf forever.

Vibroknife completely defines out of existence any sort of control/defense/mill deck design.