Another way to "rebalancing" Lannister card draw without handing it out to everyone would be to lower the limit to 2, would make it less usefull to truly stack your deck with cardraw.

But in the end there are maybe too many problems with this changes

Martell already circumvents draw thanks to their reveal and put into your hand cards and they would become the new top carddrawer

For me the "biggest" thorn is

- Difficulty in building trait-themes decks

Although this seems to get resolved with the new deluxe expanions, can't wait to make a dothraki or clansmen deck (if those themes get chosen)

Good call, JersulamJones, I would also like to see a few more cards that provide more than one influence.

I think each house needs to have some sort of answer to card advantage.

Lannister = Draw

Targaryen = Attachment recycle and search

Stark = Search

Martell = Reveal and draw

Grey =???

Baratheon = Recycle

The problem is outside of Targ the other houses are not nearly as efficient at their form or have it in as much redundant abundance as Lannister. This needs to be addressed IMO. I would have no problem with Lanni's plethora of easy draw if, for example, Stark had search that was even half as abundant and close too efficient.

dormouse said:

I agree with the general direction of this post (that it would be great if houses had different answers to draw), but I don't necessarily like the current mechanics. Targ has a lot of recursion, and that tends to work pretty well. As dormouse mentioned though, this tends to focus on attachments, pretty much forcing Targ to run attachments to get draw going. On the plus side, Targ's draw/recursion tends to be some of the most sustainable (other than Golden Tooth Mines). The downside is that it tends to rely on combo, so you have to devote a larger portion of the deck to the draw engine.

Stark search is great, but searching for a card is typically much stronger than drawing cards.

Bara's recycle is currently pretty poor. One of the biggest problems with Bara's rush builds is that it doesn't really have a good draw engine, in my opinion.

Targ recursion is sick sick sick. Street Waif is such a nasty card.

Kennon said:

Targ has the best recursion in the game at the moment, so I can't disagree with you there. I do disagree that recursion is equal to draw in utility, and that Street Waifs are great draw engines.

Street Waifs are obviously very useful, but they have big weaknesses. First of all, they can be pretty bad early game...unless you really love to recur Summer Seas. (A Flea Bottom Scavenger is much, much better round 1 than a Street Waif.) Late in the game, when you have a lot of junk in the discard, waifs tend to bring back duplicates of dead uniques or locations that are no longer needed (like a third copy of Kingdom of Shadows that was discarded to an intrigue challenge). Even if a waif brings back "good" cards, the opponent picks the "worst" card in the pile, which usually means the card that will help you the least. So if I really need a Condemned by the Council, my opponent instead gives me a Refugee of the Plains or an Aegon's Legacy...not super helpful. Lastly, Street Waifs are very fragile. A 1-STR character in an environment with Threat from the East and plenty of burn/Venomous Blades means that I rarely get to use a single waif's ability more than 3 times in one game. (So a 2-gold character ultimately nets me 2 cards.) In contrast, Lanni's main 2-gold draw option (Golden Tooth Mines) is much tougher to remove so it nets many more cards, and Lanni's 1-gold draw option (Tommen) works equally well round 1 through round 10.

More generally though, recursion is just not the same thing is draw. It is an incredible compliment, especially in setting up combos (To Be A Dragon and Street Waif is one of the best combos in the game), but if I need an answer to a problematic character or location and I haven't drawn the answer yet, looking through my discard pile isn't going to help.

Going back to my original statement though...I didn't say that I dislike Targ's recursion. I love it. I do, however, dislike that Targ's in-house draw option (like its recursion) is based on combos. I can tolerate recursion as a fragile ability or combo, but it would be nice if a draw engine didn't require so many moving parts. In contrast, situational draw is OK by me. For example, Flea Bottom Scavenger is a great card. Similarly, VED Darkstar or "Drawstar" was great, though probably too powerful in the current (low-draw) environment. Greyjoy's warship-draw is already a bit this way. It would be great if Lanni had the easiest access to draw but other houses had to meet various conditions and, when they did, their draw was superior and/or did other things too (like add STR).

I wholeheartedly agree with dormouse's thoughts on each house having their own answer to card advantage. Just giving good draw (in the form of somekind of neutral über-drawengine) to all houses would really remove from what makes the game interesting.

Still, I think it might be interesting to see somekind of new take on this as well, such as cards to hinder your opponents draw. Draw tends to be too much of a fun no-brainer. For example, nasty abilities that trigger off your opponent drawing would add some fun complexity to the game.

How about these on a character or location?

Response: After an opponent draws more than two cards in the draw phase, claim 1 power for your house.

Response: After an opponent draws a card, claim 1 power for your house. You may not use this ability in the draw phase.

They could always bring back this card from the Throne of Blades set:

King's Gallows (location, neutral)

Cost 2
King's Landing.

Each time a player with more than two cards in hand draws a card other than the standard two cards in the draw phase, that player must choose and discard a card from his or her hand.

I loved drawing this card in draft events, and it did put a hamper on alot of card draw.

I find it interesting that whenever we talk about holes, thorns or "needed" solutions, thoughts go almost immediately to all the power cards that "should" be reprinted. I'm not sure reprints are the best answer to any of these questions. Many reprints are likely to address the issue without fitting into the metagame and/or environment that is being built in the LCG.

Guess I didn't realize that King's Gallows was a power card. I got started with Winter, so it only every showed up in classic or chaos drafts, and I was always happy to see it.

But, yes, I do agree that alot of us older players tend to look at solutions that existed in the game prior to the LCG days. And I'll admit that there are ALOT of cards that I miss but I also missed cards that were rotated out with both Valyrian block and Winter block. I don't want to return to the old days, I actually think that the LCG is at a very healthy place for a card pool, and that there are as many options now as if the game hadn't switched and followed a "normal" rotation cycle. But FFG had shown us that they are going to reprint older cards, and that we can expect more deluxe expansions, so I expect to see reprinted cards keep appearing in these sets.

It was simply the topic of anti-draw cards that reminded of the Gallows, and if nothing else I'm sure newer players could use it as a point of reference for types of tech that the community might see in the future.

JerusalemJones said:

The comment wasn't aimed specifically at you or this card. (And no, King's Gallows wasn't really a power card because not many people played it. In that environment, anything that was two-sided was seen as having limited use.) It was more a general observation that the primary tool for "fixing" player issues in the environment seems to be suggesting reprints.

Of course, something to consider on that front, is that if I suggest a card, say:

Abandoned Sept

2 Cost

Westeros.

Any Phase: After an opponent draws 1 or more cards, kneel Abandoned Sept to choose a character. That character gets -2 STR until the end of the phase. This ability may not be triggered in the Draw phase.

Due to legal reasons, I pretty much just made certain that the card I just suggested cannot appear in the game by posting it publicly here. I don't know that anyone other than myself takes it into consideration, but when I suggest a reprint or the like I'm not dead set on returning to that environment, but it is a good way to say "Hey, we need something similar to this." without ruling out design space.

ktom said:

I'm not opposed to reprints, with slight modifications of course. (Think Ellaria and Forever Burning, which are basically reprints with slight updates so that they fit better with the other LCG cards.) And it makes sense that people look back at old cards for solutions to current problems: There's no need to reinvent the wheel.... One can and should learn from what has worked in the past.

In addition, although it's nice to see new mechanics and cards, it's also nice to tie the LCG mechanics back in with the older cards. (In fact, one of my complaints in general is that it seems like once a mechanic has been introduced, the next block almost completely ignores the mechanic. This isn't always true, but it tends to be the case with certain traits, keywords, and other effects...like the seasons.) Of course, keep old power cards that wreck the environment such as Prince's Loyalist out of LCG, but anti-draw mechanics like the ones suggested above seem fun and useful.

To get back to the main point of the posts above though, it isn't that every house needs draw. But every house needs a way to equalize the playing field. The fact that people are looking for cards that would do nothing against an opponent who doesn't draw more than the normal 2 cards during the draw phase should be indication enough that people recognize extra draw IS an issue and are willing to play cards that could be situationally bad/dead cards just because they offer the chance of equalizing the playing field.

I can honestly say that one card I don't want to see reprinted is the old promo of King's Landing. You have no idea how many times I put that location to the torch.

dormouse said:

I quite agree with this position. And while I can sympathize with Kennon's lament, there's a reason why draw shouldn't been seen as the overwhelming province or strength of one house. It is the most common and "easiest" means of card advantage, esp. in combination with abundant gold. Though I suppose you could just look at it as Nate's way of making Lanni as despised as they are in the books, by giving them every advantage.

Getting these things in balance can't be easy for the designer/developers, but trying to "catch up" the other houses one when has the perceived advantage, without making it swing the other way (at least by looking at the slope of the card quality graph) is worse. Looking at what the other houses use to offset Lanni/Targs advantage, LTG and LDC came in the CS, what is everyone else using?

And to fill in Greyjoy's ???, I'd say the synergy they have with the Kings of Winter and Alannys might make them a candidate for "counter-draw" as their situation... the harder you try to put cards in your hand, the worse they wreck you. Make the cards giving you card advantage dead. Kind of like playing Counting Favors when they've got out 3 LTGs.

I quite like the iodea of Greyjoy being anti-draw, falls well into their reaving ways without relying on intrigue and guile to necessary accomplish it.

Search is better than draw, To Be A Wolf is easily one of the best cards in the game. Efficient doesn't even come close to describing it... that said Stark's LCG search is vastly limited and restricted. A little more search or alternate deck thinning would be nice. Warhammer has a mechanic that lets you search the top 5 cards, I could see more abundant or easy search given to Stark that fit along these lines without being over powered or unbalancing.

Targ should have draw or recursion not centered around putting attachments into play or bringing them back to hand. Something cenetered around one of their other mechanics, burn or attachment discard for instance.

Just ideas that show that there are multiple and thematic paths to card advantage rather than giving powerful neutral draw to all Houses.

Maester_LUke said:

And in that he has succeeded admirably. Talk about establishing your Ned Cred.....

I noticed this thread going on over in the general LCG forum and it seemed like it didn't include anyone from here (haven't finished it), but thought we might raise our voices there. FFG hasn't always been prompt, but we have been seeing some response in terms of changes (Greyjoy to Matell to Stark box changes; individual CP collation) and perhaps we can have an impact there as well.

Maester_LUke said:

Maybe it's just me, but ever since the ill-executed transition (cataclysmic crash is more accurate) to LCG and the fallout, it seems FFG has been much more responsive, at least in terms of distribution/marketing issues. I realize that card design/balance has a much longer lag time, because it requires testing cards that may not actually address imbalances until months (or years?) later.

I agree that Organized Play that was truly supported would be great - heck, bring back Gold Dragons!

I disagree that draw is out of control for Lanni. Especially in a time where Alliance is legal. Splash draw, y'all! Also, almost every other house has some serious 'draw' cards as well (LIV, Waif, the Martell chick who draws 3 early-game as well as Messenger, the shadows location ?King's Landing?, that card that came out in the GJ set with initative). BTW sorry I am horrible with card names. Some of it has a risk, but you can build your decks around that risk and have pretty decent card draw. Is Lanni's better? Yes, but there is control for almost all of it. Heck, you can use the 'everyone draws 3' plot as well, knowing that Lanni has 2 GTM's out and you get a lot more out of it.

The only thing I sort of do agree on is giving money and draw is more effective. Lanni's money cards could be more balanced - mainly the +2 gold ally.

I was always a fan of having more cards that are powerful and trigger off winning challenges. We have had this discussion before, but too bad I am goign there again. Losing a challenge should be scary. Losing it by big #'s should be scary. The thing I loved about the game was the big swings the game was known for in Westeros and I&F. Taking the chance that Ktom will be mad at me for talking about older cards: PTTT/PTTS/Tears/Fire from the Sky and Contested Claim, Preemptive Vengence, Narrow Escape, To the Wolf Banner...that type of stuff.

I miss sub-themes cards to round out decks. I love putting in Wildlings (we are seeing some of this, w/ NW) for location control (I also loved Ransack for Clansmen)...knights for synergy...Brotherhood for cool abilities, etc. Seems like we have to go 'all in' on themes more these days (Shadow cards, Other cards, etc.).

Uniques and Lords/Ladies should be the focus. They are in the books (I know, I rail about this a ton). The fact that we have 3 versions of some characters and none on others could be better (do we need another Ed or Cercei? Really?). Cards that create intrinsic value in these cards like Bodyguard (printed) and Interrogate (not really) are great.

Get rid of the **** Fury cards, especially Bara's. Or limit them a tad somehow.

More Ally hate - should be a big detraction to a card! Varys is a good start, and well balanced.

~Lastly, reprint all the Champion cards! I only got a year dammit! j/k. I do love me some Bandit Lord though...just make it unique

That all being said - the game is as balanced as it has ever been. Seriously, I think any house can win, which is cool.

first off, nice Rant!

second I'm going to highlight spots where I agree, but more of where I disagree and why (and by contrary )

rings said:

the league play was a start, but it seemed to just trickle out. what happened to the new league kit every 3 months? If they would just committ and stick with something I think it would be fine.

rings said:

as i said in anothe thread, draw isn;t the problem, it just speads up the problem. And yes do please splash draw w/ alliance. My MWnK deck could use some draw

rings said:

okay, we have different versions of 'serious draw.' Waif is okay, though not draw in that you are seeing new cards, the martell chick is limited. which you point out in your description (maybe if there was more infamy....) king;'s landing is great untill you run into another player running it... plus you are missing bara and stark....thats 1/3 of the houses.

rings said:

agree

rings said:

agree and also annoyed by it. what ever's new seems to become overly strong because everything we started with was vanilla/reduced in power level.

rings said:

agree, and think that the issue isn;t that they aren't the focus, but that there are too many non-uniques with abilities better then the uniques.

rings said:

100000000000% agree dawg. E?

rings said:

Get rid of the **** Fury cards, especially Bara's. Or limit them a tad somehow.

I've never had a problem with the fury cards, sure bara can steal, but martell can pop it right back and targ is a reset house now so...meh

rings said:

while I agree that ally hate is needed I'm not sure If i agree that vrys is well balanced. He sits in shadows fueling shadows. He comes out of shadows fueling that mechinic too, then he gives a +2 to board advantage and has stealth in two solid challenges for 2 gold at first then 1 when you want him (both of which can be made to 0)....

rings said:

~Lastly, reprint all the Champion cards! I only got a year dammit! j/k. I do love me some Bandit Lord though...just make it unique

sarcasm aside I agree with this...maybe a slight tweak to bruno's plot and make it choose 3 rest are discarded (wildfire to Threat's valar...)

rings said:

you haven't played stark much lately have you? and with targ lanni and martell getting faster its harder for bara, even if you go bara control.

I love how the Lannister players keep syaing "Any House can win in the environment" yet the big tournament keep coming up Lannister, for the most part.

Lars: Targ's getting faster? Why would you say that? They seem to still be control-grind to me. Greyjoy and Martell are fast though - but Bara got a little faster too with Seat of Power....

I didn't mean faster in terms of rush. I meant their control elements come out quicker. with things like waif, the new crone, and the new location one burn effect does 3 things for them and can be recursed more quickly.

Good posts! Just a few counter-counter points First, I didn't think it was a rant, and hope it really didn't come of that way - again I think things are going well, I just had pretty minor points really.

Stag - I play Lanni since I play Lanni (or Martell - intrigue is my thing). I don't play kneeling Lanni, nor do I play heavy card-draw Lanni. But, I see you point. Just remember, it has been awhile since Lanni won Worlds! ~They are due!

As much as I agree income + draw is good, I think burn and power rush has the same potential, as does reset/save (which is very lowly costed for GJ), and can easily overcome draw since it is harder to splash IMHO (burn for sure, you can get a little rush w/ Renown).

Lars -

Draw - Waif is incredible. The best costed draw card in the game. I have been playing a long time (as you have!), and believe that most games are won in the first three turns, with the first turn being most important. You still get a character out of it. You are pretty much guaranteed playing 3 of her you get to your draw limit the first turn, which helps you draw into more draw/search going forward (Messenger anyone?). I think Martell is now king of card advantage, not Lanni (the recurring death of the stupid weapon, Waif/Messenger, the increased intrigue claim of Arianne to name a few).

King's Landing is a bit of a risk, but less than you would think. There are some decent locations that have that trait, all you have to do is put some in - it doesn't weaken your deck. The cost is fairly high though.

Fury Card - you are telling me that if Bara steals a card, and then Martell get to put that back in their own hand, that is balanced? I guess I just disagree there. Bara loses nothing, Martell has their best card used against them for a turn 50% of the time, and then they have to pay for it again (if something like Rule by Decree doesn't hit). Bleh. The effects are just too disparagate for cards that have the same stats.

Ally hate - I agree that Varys is good. But remember, Ally was supposed to be a negative trait. Right now you are only running the risk that someone draws one card (if they are running it). W/ Arys Oak I am fairly okay I guess, I just would like something a little more consistant than uniques.

Bruno's plot - I am torn, I loved it as printed. I know a lot of people didn't, but I love the simplicity of costing cards if you can have 3 cost/2 strength being a disadvantage, and 2 cost/3 strength an advantage. I am the same way w/ 2/1's. I am a big believer of strength mattering a bit more than it does now, and his plot was a very elegant way to help do that.

House power - While I agree that Stark is the lowest on the totem pole right now, they have a big expansion coming up. And they still can win if built right - Bear Island is still one of the most impressive locations in the environment. Bara is still strong - power rush will always be a threat. They can't weenie as much as in the past w/ Martell...but they still have strong cards especially w/ the new King's Hall and Dupe guy.

Thanks though - I love talking about this stuff again