I'll just say that I'm happy to take #11, and iterations of it, against anything out there right now.

...forgot to quote...

4 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Interesting. My experience locally -- and I saw it more widely, though second-hand and thus less reliably -- is that Imperial players thought the Palpatine and x7 nerfs leveled them ... so they simply stopped playing them without even testing the nerfed versions. Until, of course, some of them started playing them again, and found the nerfs to be pretty reasonable, and Imperials still capable of competing (just not dominating).

Now, for the record, I personally believe the Palp nerf was not strictly needed, but the nerfed version is playable, and that the x7 nerf is really weird (especially in combination with the bizarre ruling that a template overlap counts as a general overlap, and denies the evade token), but still playable.

From my perspective, this was a "perception erases reality" situation for a while. It's the first time I'd seen so starkly in X-Wing, and it was interesting. (Similar situations have occurred often with a "DOA" ship or upgrade that later turns out to not have been DOA after all, but it's conceptually different.)

As a primarily imp player i expected the x7 nerf purely because it was not only a price cut, but a benefit you literally could do NOTHING about. I'm not a fan of getting tokens or targetlocks without any risk of not getting it (looking at you K4....) so i fully expected something like that to happen.
Palp nerf made no sense to me. You literally brought a third ship for palp instead of a third ace, and that third ship rarely did anything except tote palp around. I see nothing wrong with this at all. However, i am glad they nerfed him purely on a listbuilding standpoint: prior to his nerf imps refused to even LOOK at non agi3 ships. SF was considered complete trash on release, despite making my local area absolutely despise BD with a passion long before PA/LWF/Cruise was a thing.

1 minute ago, Johen Dood said:

Also, I'll add that you only have to peruse List Juggler to see exactly how much less x7 and Palp are used now. Hint: They're used A LOT less- that's not just perception.

... Wut?

I'm not saying it's " just " perception, but it's a lot of perception. Huge swaths of players wrote off Palpatine and X7. We know from history that those upgrades will stay written-off until a few players actually start using them again and are successful with them. (And, IMO, that is starting to happen.)

Palpatine and X7 are still strong cards. They're simply no longer broken-good (in the case of X7) or only attackable in one way if you want to win (Palpatine).

I absolutely despise the whole "git gud" mentally that some people possess (unironically; ironically is fine and funny), but in this case, they've got a point. Writing off Palpatine and X7 was herd mentality at its worst.

34 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

As a primarily imp player i expected the x7 nerf purely because it was not only a price cut, but a benefit you literally could do NOTHING about. I'm not a fan of getting tokens or targetlocks without any risk of not getting it (looking at you K4....) so i fully expected something like that to happen.

Perfect example of what makes Imp players mad. How do you nerf x7, but not K4 security droid? This is why people peddle conspiracy stories of the devs being in love with Scum. I'm with you, though, the x7 nerf wasn't unexpected- and x7 is still good. Not Tier I, but it's still solid.

36 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

... Wut?

I'm not saying it's " just " perception, but it's a lot of perception. Huge swaths of players wrote off Palpatine and X7. We know from history that those upgrades will stay written-off until a few players actually start using them again and are successful with them. (And, IMO, that is starting to happen.)

Palpatine and X7 are still strong cards. They're simply no longer broken-good (in the case of X7) or only attackable in one way if you want to win (Palpatine).

I absolutely despise the whole "git gud" mentally that some people possess (unironically; ironically is fine and funny), but in this case, they've got a point. Writing off Palpatine and X7 was herd mentality at its worst.

I think you misunderstood me a bit, I agree with you. I'm just saying these cards went from being Tier I (in the class of JM5K, Biggs, Miranda, Nym, etc.) to Tier 1.5 or 2, because they just don't have the raw efficiency of the Tier I stuff now. They're still good, mind you, and I still use them. But they're quite a few rungs from where they were. My whole point was Scum and Rebels have Tier I lists- Imperials do not, and the reason is the FAQ.

58 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Interesting. My experience locally -- and I saw it more widely, though second-hand and thus less reliably -- is that Imperial players thought the Palpatine and x7 nerfs leveled them ... so they simply stopped playing them without even testing the nerfed versions. Until, of course, some of them started playing them again, and found the nerfs to be pretty reasonable, and Imperials still capable of competing (just not dominating).

Now, for the record, I personally believe the Palp nerf was not strictly needed, but the nerfed version is playable, and that the x7 nerf is really weird (especially in combination with the bizarre ruling that a template overlap counts as a general overlap, and denies the evade token ), but still playable.

From my perspective, this was a "perception erases reality" situation for a while. It's the first time I'd seen so starkly in X-Wing, and it was interesting. (Similar situations have occurred often with a "DOA" ship or upgrade that later turns out to not have been DOA after all, but it's conceptually different.)

The ****? How drunk was the person making that call? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

At least we finally got X-wing 2.0.

Just now, Polaritie said:

The ****? How drunk was the person making that call? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

It's based on the K-wing Advanced SLAM ruling, even though that ruling stems from the fact that SLAM was desired to be as close to a "normal" maneuver as possible. Obviously that rationale doesn't apply for the X7 -- the rationale is supposed to be raw speed and low profile -- but whatevs. (Yes, it's a silly ruling.)

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52 minutes ago, Stilgod said:

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I think FFG has to want what's best for the game and their jobs. The rest of the balance FAQ was supposed to be out this summer, maybe the playteater breach messed up the timing, IDK. Let's give them thru GenCon. ?

2 hours ago, Johen Dood said:

Perfect example of what makes Imp players mad. How do you nerf x7, but not K4 security droid? This is why people peddle conspiracy stories of the devs being in love with Scum. I'm with you, though, the x7 nerf wasn't unexpected- and x7 is still good. Not Tier I, but it's still solid.

I think you misunderstood me a bit, I agree with you. I'm just saying these cards went from being Tier I (in the class of JM5K, Biggs, Miranda, Nym, etc.) to Tier 1.5 or 2, because they just don't have the raw efficiency of the Tier I stuff now. They're still good, mind you, and I still use them. But they're quite a few rungs from where they were. My whole point was Scum and Rebels have Tier I lists- Imperials do not, and the reason is the FAQ.

wat?

look at the matchup breakdowns a bit harder, the imps list that came did well enough vs lowrisky but suffered to the volume of nym/dengar and jumps. (heck even a phantom/striker/sf went 1/2). That's where this data gets lost on me, these guys (short of the likes of heaver class who always brings something out of left field) are so busy jumping on "the meta list" that they often cram out others by a shade based on what ends up being low volume and poor draws.

10 hours ago, Johen Dood said:

l ink to mathamatecial unbiased webstats proof that biggs wins all x-wing matches and nothing else is worth playing

Yeah Death Stars are OP we need to nerf them.

Oh hey look Armada doesn't have a Biggs meta we can all go play that game since X-wign is totally borken.

3 hours ago, Johen Dood said:

Yeah I can't argue that some of it wasn't perception, but the fact is, Imps don't have ANY Tier I lists currently. If the FAQ hadn't happened? Maybe they would.

Plus I'll lay out that a big use for Palp was keeping Stealth Devices up (on both defenders and interceptors)- which can't be done anymore in his current incarnation- it was his reactive nature that made it possible.

Also, I'll add that you only have to peruse List Juggler to see exactly how much less x7 and Palp are used now. Hint: They're used A LOT less- that's not just perception.

Decimator/Whisper isn't Tier 1???

That list is brutal.

I've gotten to top 4 every time I've run it.

2 hours ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

Decimator/Whisper isn't Tier 1???

That list is brutal.

I've gotten to top 4 every time I've run it.

Nope, that's math and the stats are unbiased.

As for me, I'll wait until Gencon is over before I make a judgement.

2 hours ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

Decimator/Whisper isn't Tier 1???

That list is brutal.

I've gotten to top 4 every time I've run it.

I don't think it's quite there. It's a list that has some very bad matchups. It's probably between 1 and 2.

11 hours ago, kris40k said:

"If the game was never properly balanced, why are nowadays so different?" <-- This is not a good thing

May nowadays things are different because people are finally sick of it and throwing in the towel. In this case, we are hearing it from the megafans with audiences. We are hearing it from players from the top of the competitive scene. We are hearing it from those that spend their free time and love producing fan-made podcasts and other content. We are hearing about it more and more because while there were likely people that left without loud exits, that the game was unbalanced did not go unnoticed by those that remained. They noticed. Perhaps they had hope that "FFG will figure it out, give them some time" and they pushed on pushing ships around. New people came, and old people left, and FFG tried to balance the game. Fat Han got nerfed. Schrodinger's Whisper got nerfed. Soontir and Palp Aces? Nerfed. Defenders, nerfed. K-Wing and Parattanni (attanni overall) are now on the chopping block with the leaked info, and the meta has already moved on to the new wave and the broke *** **** that was added there.

Maybe its a thing now, because while people were willing to give FFG 2-3 years to straighten their stuff out, after 4-5 years, people have had enough.

Okay, so some people are expecting the competitive side of th game to be more "balanced". I'm not even sure any semblance of balance is even possible in any game that's about pitting collectible stuff against eachother. At least, I never had the luck of playing a game like that. Some things or combinations of some things were always overperforming compared to certain others. Because people want the shiny new things to be "awesome", only that will make new stuff sell.

Nerfs make people unhappy. You don't sound satisfied by them either. What would make people satisfied, then? Games Workshop style complete revision? I think that would cause even more uproar. Card packs full of revised and erratad upgrades and pilots? I'd be surprised if FFG would do that, it would be a suboptimal business decision for them.

I rate the upcoming Guns for Hire as a step in the right direction. Instead of nerfing, it will add more variety and options in the shape of two, currently barely flown ships. I'm sure the new releases parallel to Episode VIII will add more options for rebels and imperials alike. And ig GfH is a success, FFG will be more inclined to do similar packs, like a Rogue One pack with an X-Wing and an U-Wing miniature, with upgrades and crew options to make both more worthwhile to play.

Or am I seeing things too optimistically?

9 hours ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

Decimator/Whisper isn't Tier 1???

That list is brutal.

I've gotten to top 4 every time I've run it.

Maybe in your small local Meta, where everybody hugs each other after the game.

Not in the real tournament world.

5 hours ago, xstormtrooperx said:

Maybe in your small local Meta, where everybody hugs each other after the game.

Not in the real tournament world.

Didn't realize SoCal (San Diego/LA) was a small meta? Where do I have to go to play in the real Meta??

33 minutes ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

Didn't realize SoCal (San Diego/LA) was a small meta? Where do I have to go to play in the real Meta??

The internet, obviously

@CaptainPellaeon

The only issue I see with waiting to see if Guns for Hire is a success and the right direction to go to address issues is that from the time they get any reliable data to when they would potentially implement another box in the same vein of GfH would be over a year . That's not fast enough. For me at least.

On ‎11‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 5:18 PM, Joe Boss Red Seven said:

IMPS are just about AWESOME!!!

AWESOME DAM YOU AWESOME!!!

STOP BEING LAZY!!!

17 hours ago, Captain Pellaeon said:

Okay, so some people are expecting the competitive side of th game to be more "balanced". I'm not even sure any semblance of balance is even possible in any game that's about pitting collectible stuff against eachother. At least, I never had the luck of playing a game like that. Some things or combinations of some things were always overperforming compared to certain others. Because people want the shiny new things to be "awesome", only that will make new stuff sell.

Nerfs make people unhappy. You don't sound satisfied by them either. What would make people satisfied, then? Games Workshop style complete revision? I think that would cause even more uproar. Card packs full of revised and erratad upgrades and pilots? I'd be surprised if FFG would do that, it would be a suboptimal business decision for them.

I rate the upcoming Guns for Hire as a step in the right direction. Instead of nerfing, it will add more variety and options in the shape of two, currently barely flown ships. I'm sure the new releases parallel to Episode VIII will add more options for rebels and imperials alike. And ig GfH is a success, FFG will be more inclined to do similar packs, like a Rogue One pack with an X-Wing and an U-Wing miniature, with upgrades and crew options to make both more worthwhile to play.

Or am I seeing things too optimistically?

Balance is always something to strive for, and not something to wave away as "well, it'll never be perfect, so why worry about it?" When working with multiple factions in a wargame, you are going to have differences between those factions to have identity between them, which means that there will not be exact parity between comparable units and upgrades, however, you can have a close compromise in a unit's effectiveness and efficiency to comparable units. Power creeping new units in order to sell new stuff is not a necessity from a game-play point of view, but is desirable from a business point of view. Which is a reason for complaint by the players against the developer.

Consider the Scurrg.

Both the Imperial and Rebels already had heavy bombers introduced before with the TIE/it and K-Wing. Obviously, there was already an imbalance between the factions between those two ships and the role they performed for their factions as heavy ordinance and bomb carriers. While according to recent leaks, the developers were reviewing the effectiveness of the K-Wing and its up for a nerf to bring it down a bit via Adv SLAM changes, they then introduced the S&V heavy bomber, the Scurrg, and again push it above the existing mark in effectiveness, instead of balancing it with the existing Punisher and they're planned nerfed K-Wing.

So even though they are nerfing the K-Wing, they are just ******* up again with the Scurrg.

Had they just introduced a balanced heavy bomber for the S&V faction, it would have found its place in the lists, as there is no existing heavy bomber for it to compete with there. It would have sold for fulfilling the role it needed to fill, while also offering nice cross faction upgrades in the package.

They didn't need to push out a broken ship just to move product. If they did, it's reason to complain about their development process.

On the topic of nerfs, I actually like them. The developers have continually shown that they push out content without understanding the full ramifications of what they are doing, and fixes need to be made to correct imbalances introduced. These changes need to be made via errata to cards to correct them, aka nerfs. I do not think that they take correct action all the time. For example, the Jumpmaster 5000. They have nerfed several cards all around this ship, like Deadeye, without taking direct action to correct the ship itself. Instead of fixing the problem, they apply fixes around the problem which just causes ripples affecting other ships, instead of just fixing the **** broken ship, because apparently they didn't want to take direct action against it until every other possible out had been used up. So now we have a bunch of changed cards and they are going to have to directly nerf the ship itself.

Guns for Hire is a good step in bringing up unused ships towards balance with other existing ships, however it is a symptom of FFG's desire to not fix things unless they can get a release from it. As recently seen in the Gamasutra interview , they do not want to create and release changes to ships unless they can find a way to package it into a new release to move more product. While I understand the goal to earn profit, it directly shows that the game developers will allow imbalance to persist in the game simply due to production timelines, instead of just pushing out an errata to correct an issue. The Heavy Scyk title change is a clear example of a buff that can be applied via errata, just like nerfs can be applied via errata, however the company has clearly stated that they would rather wait until they can produce and release new models to sell to package fixes with them, ala Guns for Hire.

That is some bull.

Game developers should never wait on fixing unbalanced game assets to sell a fix to the players, be it DLC in digital games, or an alternate model packs in tabletop miniatures.

Fix things as soon as they need fixing, and sell new content. Don't sell fixes to your broken game.