1 minute ago, player2636234 said:

It seems like that effect would be strange considering the art has a ninja on it, but who knows.

idk - the Way of the Dragon has a monk just sitting there, but the effect lets you do more stuff... but as I said, I've been wrong on my speculations (mostly because I love simply throwing out wild speculation) but I'm certain there would be at least 1 card that does do a simple, direct dishonor.

1 minute ago, Kubernes said:

I'm a bit underwhelmed by Shoju but it's the core set so we cannot really see him with something ridiculous. Gotta wait for his experienced version.

He's a finisher. That is very powerful.

To this point, I think the cards that kill "discard" are: Mirumoto Raitsugu, Assassinate, Shinjo Altansarnai, Isawa Masahiro and Noble Sacrifice. Assassinate has the least amount of restrictive clauses of the lot. Shoju betters even those restrictions. There will be cards that diminish Political skill, aside from dishonour. He's then set up to make kills in combat.

38 minutes ago, Khift said:

So, a character with a dash cannot participate in conflicts of that type. If cannot were absolute then it would never be possible to create a circumstance in which that character finds itself in that kind of conflict. However, it's not just possible, it's actually pretty trivial -- Rally to the Cause, Kuroi Mori, Captive Audience, a really dumb Charge use, a surprise Pacifism that got moved by a dumb Called in Favor, a Shiba Peacemaker whose Cloud the Mind got Let Go, etc etc. All of these cause cannots to be violated. Then the game has rules for what to do when such a character finds themselves in a conflict they aren't supposed to be in. And that's a fine rule to have, and the game works just fine with it, it just annoys me that it says cannot is absolute and then turns around and creates a rule which handles what happens when cannot is violated because by definition something which is absolute can't be violated.

None of these situations violate the cannot rule. The rule states "Cannot participate in conflicts of that type". They are not participating. They move in, and because they cannot participate, are immediately moved home and bowed. Show me a scenario where a character with a dash actually gets to participate and take part in said conflict.

The rule doesn't stipulate it cannot find it itself there, or cannot move there. It cannot participate.

5 minutes ago, Daigotsu Kai'Sen said:

None of these situations violate the cannot rule. The rule states "Cannot participate in conflicts of that type". They are not participating. They move in, and because they cannot participate, are immediately moved home and bowed. Show me a scenario where a character with a dash actually gets to participate and take part in said conflict.

The rule doesn't stipulate it cannot find it itself there, or cannot move there. It cannot participate.

I think Khift is meaning that "cannot" doesn't mean "the game is designed so that this cannot happen" but more "You can't do this, but if it happens you..."

That's why he said this. I think its a fair observation to make. It isn't true that the "cannot" rule doesn't work, but it is true that situations can occur that violate a "cannot" and the game corrects them.

Quote

then they went and made a bunch of dispensations for what happens when cannot gets violated.

20 minutes ago, Anemura said:

He's a finisher. That is very powerful.

To this point, I think the cards that kill "discard" are: Mirumoto Raitsugu, Assassinate, Shinjo Altansarnai, Isawa Masahiro and Noble Sacrifice. Assassinate has the least amount of restrictive clauses of the lot. Shoju betters even those restrictions. There will be cards that diminish Political skill, aside from dishonour. He's then set up to make kills in combat.

All of the champions could be seen as finishers just as they can all be considered huge threats once they hit the board. I wasn't saying he was a weakling, but underwhelming. I'd rather he do something fun like Kisada or Yokuni.

I have to go by what we do have rather than what we may or may not get.

8 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

I wasn't saying he was a weakling, but underwhelming. I'd rather he do something fun like Kisada or Yokuni.

You might say that text that ends up being more dangerous than it might seem on paper is very much where the fun lies for Scorpion.

53 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

All of the champions could be seen as finishers just as they can all be considered huge threats once they hit the board. I wasn't saying he was a weakling, but underwhelming. I'd rather he do something fun like Kisada or Yokuni.

I have to go by what we do have rather than what we may or may not get.

So here is the thing - Toturi and Hotaru - they both need to win a battle to use their ability, and the ability is limited to the ring chosen for the conflict. This can be great, but it can be meh - they may not even win so their ability could be wasted. Their stats aren't great unless honored. Yokuni's ability depends on board state. If there is a good ability, then he's good. If there isn't, then his ability is wasted. His stats are alright, but without equips or being honored he isn't that scary. Tsukune is especially at risk of being underwhelming as you need to honor her to have stats worth her cost, and while she gives you the left over rings the investment for her stats might cost you provinces while you're collecting ring effects...

Kisada is the only champion who is actually scary out the gate - he comes in full 7 power, with an ability that is omnipresent so long as they succeed in their conflicts (which the Crab are particularly good at lol.) He doesn't need any equips or to be honored for his 7 MIL to be a province breaker. That level between 6 and 7 actually means a LOT but just as you can drop equips on other characters, Kisada can get a +1 from his stronghold and an easy +2 or more from an equip. He is a directly imposing and threatening force.

Shoju is just as imposing as Kisada out the gate. His 7 POL is formidable sans any other effects. Unlike Kisada - Shoju also has a built in penalty on the opponent's POL, so he is actually a net 9 POL out the gate! This is an efficient penalty because it can be spread out if needed, none is wasted. Even forgetting the discard part of his ability, he is very strong. Further - unlike Kisada - you can honor Shoju bringing him up to a net 11 POL in 1 card. This character is an army unto himself for political conflicts, he bests all other political cards. Even honored Hotaru can't touch Shoju out the gate.

The discard part of his effect is just a kicker - not only can you get the -2 POL advantage combined with his massive POL stat - but you can combine his penalty with another effect like Dishonor to wipe nearly any target off the board. We'll have to wait and see if any other -pol effects are revealed, or what methods of dishonoring are revealed to see how easily his discard effect can be put to use... right now its just a kicker, but if there is even one more effect that gives -1 or -2 POL then there is no target off limits for this ability...

Well....****.

They better have no other ways to decrease political strength...Shoju can currently single handed murder Kisada haha.

3 minutes ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

Well....****.

They better have no other ways to decrease political strength...Shoju can currently single handed murder Kisada haha.

I'd like to buy a Warrior Poet please. Please???

24 minutes ago, shosuko said:

So here is the thing - Toturi and Hotaru - they both need to win a battle to use their ability, and the ability is limited to the ring chosen for the conflict. This can be great, but it can be meh - they may not even win so their ability could be wasted. Their stats aren't great unless honored. Yokuni's ability depends on board state. If there is a good ability, then he's good. If there isn't, then his ability is wasted. His stats are alright, but without equips or being honored he isn't that scary. Tsukune is especially at risk of being underwhelming as you need to honor her to have stats worth her cost, and while she gives you the left over rings the investment for her stats might cost you provinces while you're collecting ring effects...

Kisada is the only champion who is actually scary out the gate - he comes in full 7 power, with an ability that is omnipresent so long as they succeed in their conflicts (which the Crab are particularly good at lol.) He doesn't need any equips or to be honored for his 7 MIL to be a province breaker. That level between 6 and 7 actually means a LOT but just as you can drop equips on other characters, Kisada can get a +1 from his stronghold and an easy +2 or more from an equip. He is a directly imposing and threatening force.

Shoju is just as imposing as Kisada out the gate. His 7 POL is formidable sans any other effects. Unlike Kisada - Shoju also has a built in penalty on the opponent's POL, so he is actually a net 9 POL out the gate! This is an efficient penalty because it can be spread out if needed, none is wasted. Even forgetting the discard part of his ability, he is very strong. Further - unlike Kisada - you can honor Shoju bringing him up to a net 11 POL in 1 card. This character is an army unto himself for political conflicts, he bests all other political cards. Even honored Hotaru can't touch Shoju out the gate.

The discard part of his effect is just a kicker - not only can you get the -2 POL advantage combined with his massive POL stat - but you can combine his penalty with another effect like Dishonor to wipe nearly any target off the board. We'll have to wait and see if any other -pol effects are revealed, or what methods of dishonoring are revealed to see how easily his discard effect can be put to use... right now its just a kicker, but if there is even one more effect that gives -1 or -2 POL then there is no target off limits for this ability...

I doubt a Kisada is in a conflict with Shoju very often so I find that unlikely or extreme example a lacking or misleading. Shoju is more likely to use that ability to scare away or minimize blockers. He could block but I think that's just a waste of his card for most situations. And if they are both in a political conflict somehow, something like a Rout or Captive Audience means a bad day.

Any of the skill 5 or better champions can break a province, since most of the printed province strengths are either 4 or 5.

His ability discourages chump blockers. It will be rare that his action actually discards anyone. The threat is what matters.

As such, he is one of only three champs whose ability actually helps win conflicts (Kisada and Yokuni are the others). I would rank him third best, below those two, but above the other 4.

6 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

His ability discourages chump blockers. It will be rare that his action actually discards anyone. The threat is what matters.

As such, he is one of only three champs whose ability actually helps win conflicts (Kisada and Yokuni are the others). I would rank him third best, below those two, but above the other 4.

It'll be rare that his ability discards anyone that matters, at least. If someone is reduced to 0 skill, has no fate, has no relevant ability, and is in a conflict... I mean, they're effectively discarded already. It's no real benefit to send them there early. And that'll happen, even to big characters, sometimes.

7 minutes ago, Khift said:

It'll be rare that his ability discards anyone that matters, at least. If someone is reduced to 0 skill, has no fate, has no relevant ability, and is in a conflict... I mean, they're effectively discarded already. It's no real benefit to send them there early. And that'll happen, even to big characters, sometimes.

If he is there, you won't defend with your guy with 3/3 and 2 glory and 1 fate out of fear of death by dishonor + Shoju.

If he hadn't been there, you probably would have. You don't have to make good on the threat for the threat to matter.

Just now, Yogo Gohei said:

If he is there, you won't defend with your guy with 3/3 and 2 glory and 1 fate out of fear of death by dishonor + Shoju.

If he hadn't been there, you probably would have. You don't have to make good on the threat for the threat to matter.

The most efficient costed card is the one you didn't have to play, but still effected the game

1 minute ago, shosuko said:

The most efficient costed card is the one you didn't have to play, but still effected the game

Also, Shoju-outta-nowhere via Ambush tickles me in a way few things do.

In other news: in the same image we finally have a full spoiler for Forgotten Library, as well as an English spoiler for the battle maiden.

5 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

If he is there, you won't defend with your guy with 3/3 and 2 glory and 1 fate out of fear of death by dishonor + Shoju.

If he hadn't been there, you probably would have. You don't have to make good on the threat for the threat to matter.

This isn't relevant to the point I made. My point is that there's nothing wrong with blocking Shoju with a horde of fateless Otomo Courtiers (or equivalent). Shoju discarding a character with no fate, no skill, and no ability won't actually change anything; it's the same as -2 skill on your side of the table. And therefore since it doesn't matter, you'll see people do it with regularity.

7 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

His ability discourages chump blockers. It will be rare that his action actually discards anyone. The threat is what matters.

As such, he is one of only three champs whose ability actually helps win conflicts (Kisada and Yokuni are the others). I would rank him third best, below those two, but above the other 4.

All of the characters can help to win conflicts with their abilities. Some of these can be helpful in the current conflict, like Kisada or Shoju. Others, like Al, Hotaru, or Toturi can all help set up success for future conflicts. Tsukune is at the bottom but could potentially resolve the effect of the void ring to potentially eliminate a character with a fate on them. Yokuni is highly dependent on what characters are in play to determine whether or not his ability would qualify.

32 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

I doubt a Kisada is in a conflict with Shoju very often so I find that unlikely or extreme example a lacking or misleading. Shoju is more likely to use that ability to scare away or minimize blockers. He could block but I think that's just a waste of his card for most situations. And if they are both in a political conflict somehow, something like a Rout or Captive Audience means a bad day.

Any of the skill 5 or better champions can break a province, since most of the printed province strengths are either 4 or 5.

I'm not sure I follow... Sure Kisada and Shoju wouldn't go directly head to head. Kisada is MIL and Shoju is POL. That doesn't mean we can't compare them - Kisada is one of the most formidable champions out the gate - if you simply play him, and have nothing else, he can greatly impact the game. No combo needed.

Shoju is the same. You don't need any card combo, you don't need any equips or honoring, just a raw 7 POL that the opponent has to deal with. Combine this with his ability and he is a beast in POL conflicts.

Sure any character with 4-5 can break a province... undefended... but it just takes 1-2 stats to stop them. This is where Kisada and Shoju both shine. The 7 stat barrier means you need to really dedicate some force to stop them. You can say "but I can play a free sword" or rout, but so can they... There is already a POL version of rout spoiled and Shoju is a Bushi / Courtier...

2 hours ago, Kubernes said:

All of the characters can help to win conflicts with their abilities. Some of these can be helpful in the current conflict, like Kisada or Shoju. Others, like Al, Hotaru, or Toturi can all help set up success for future conflicts. Tsukune is at the bottom but could potentially resolve the effect of the void ring to potentially eliminate a character with a fate on them. Yokuni is highly dependent on what characters are in play to determine whether or not his ability would qualify.

Exactly - Kisada and Shoju are both strong "out the gate." Meaning, without any set up, right as they are played, with no other cards or abilities required, they are extremely formidable and relevant. Hotaru, Toturi, and Togashi all need something else, Altansarnai and Tsukune need even more. These other champions are great! But they aren't as directly relevant and effective as the 7 stats right from when the card was played.

2 hours ago, Khift said:

This isn't relevant to the point I made. My point is that there's nothing wrong with blocking Shoju with a horde of fateless Otomo Courtiers (or equivalent). Shoju discarding a character with no fate, no skill, and no ability won't actually change anything; it's the same as -2 skill on your side of the table. And therefore since it doesn't matter, you'll see people do it with regularity.

1 Otomo Courtier can be removed with Shoju's ability up front, then you have his 7 stats to deal with... You would need 3 Otomo Courtiers to stop Shoju from breaking a province solo (3 Otomo Courtiers directly would still lose the conflict / ring to him even without his ability) - You can say "but I can also play xxx card" but so can Shoju... He can use any of the free equips, both Route AND Outwit, and who knows what else the Scorpion get... The point is you will have to dedicate more to stop him than he cost. He is extremely efficient - combine him with AMBUSH! and OMG you're gonna feel the pain of politics...

4 hours ago, Forger said:

Is this one of those sneaky Scorp previews, or is this one of those sneaky not Scorp spoils?

Well, it was brought to you by a Mantis with a habit of finding things he shouldn't....

4 hours ago, Forger said:

I approve of neither.

1 hour ago, Yogo Gohei said:

Also, Shoju-outta-nowhere via Ambush tickles me in a way few things do.

Bah Gawd

There's a nice pattern here: those clan champions whose fluff portrays them as young, inexperienced and hopeful (Hotaru, Toturi, Tsukune) all have ring-manipulation effects, while those whose fluff portrays them as older, more experienced and somewhat sinister (Kisada, Yokuni, Shoju) all have non-ring effects.

3 hours ago, shosuko said:

This character is an army unto himself for political conflicts, he bests all other political cards.

I think your analysis is spot on here, he's a province-popping maniac right out of the gate, which is impressive. The fact that the ability is genuinely scary makes him terrifying to oppose with anyone, just in case you have cards in hand that can lower Pol. He's definitely competing for top spot for champs.

8 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

There's a nice pattern here: those clan champions whose fluff portrays them as young, inexperienced and hopeful (Hotaru, Toturi, Tsukune) all have ring-manipulation effects, while those whose fluff portrays them as older, more experienced and somewhat sinister (Kisada, Yokuni, Shoju) all have non-ring effects.

Silly fluffy animals, rings are for kids!