3 hours ago, So Crates said:Palp is most certainly not dead. Combined with Quickdraw with lightweight frame and Sensor Cluster, QD only will take damage when you want to take a revenge shot. Duncan Howard has won two store championships in the NOVA region using this combo, and I would not be surprised to see him take it to Nova Open in a few weeks.
okay. whats the list then?
Totally agree with ya. Xwing is great.
Hobbies are a passion for many (most?) of us, so people respond passionately to changes.
You must be one of those Jumpmaster players, I cant wait till your favorite OP ship gets nuked by the NerF.A.Q. 
Okay Sarcasm aside but I agree with what the Kessel Run has said, X-wing is a fun game. Yeah top builds tend to have an advantage but it can be beat. Attani mindlink wasn't in the top table, also an X-wing was in 2nd place. But what do people focus on, Jumpmasters (and atanni mindlink by association) and Biggs the only pilot keeping T-65 X-wings alive.
This game is still so much about player skill I get so confused when Podcaster and the forum over reacts.
Is fair ship rebel super good, yes, is scum nym super good, yes, but they still need to be piloted. My best friend and a guy who use to be my only x wing opponent for a long time wins almost every local tournament, and never runs the boogie man lists, he use to run wes, wedge, and Lothal Rebel, and now he. Runs super dash and a Lothal Rebel.
Now I love running 3 ship builds and decimator builds, I do pretty good, but I'm more top 4 and I never win straight out, but against my friend who wins all the time, I have a killer win record against him because I understand his thought process, other people lose horribly, but I know how he thinks, therefore I know how to beat him. Now if that doesn't show that this is still a skill, player vs player game, I don't know what is.
Bottom line, x wing is a fun game that player skill still very much matters, is it perfect right now , no, I don't like fair ship rebel 2, I don't like nym+, but two lists don't ruin the most fun game I have ever played
Yeah, I'll add my voice to this. The game is fun. I'm going to an SC this weekend with not a top tier list, not expecting to win it all (but not gonna complain if Lady Luck smiles on me either), but I am expecting to have a ton of fun playing with some friends and going up against new faces. X-Wing players come from all over the world, have different backgrounds, beliefs, tastes, yet we all have a common ground in this game.
This game does have problems. But, news flash, all living games do. There are things I'm worried about, but that doesn't drown out the enjoyment I have going out and playing with people I have never even met before and geeking out about Star Wars.
While there is room to improve, X-Wing is not in the dumps like it seems every other topic on this forum is saying. Keep hoping and keep engines to full, cause this ride ain't over yet!
You have my sword!
I really like the game now! Only it seems to narrow down at competitive level. ,
8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:Also cruiser missiles are good. but obvious power creep.
Playing with them or against them I see them as a reward for good flying. After the many, many comments on here that bemoan the lack of need for good manoeuvring (partly due to the prevalence of turrets) CM should be welcomed as a "fix" to encourage skilled flying.
5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:okay. whats the list then?
Here's a link to the finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6qGlZeUAY
Totally second this - still enjoying the game hugely, though I have to say pretty much every game community I'm adjacent to has a public face dominated by naysayers.
AFAICT, game podcasters/streamers (and arguably commentators in other more serious fields) have collectively figured out that sorta-entertaining rants, salt, strong opinions and fear are the most reliable sources of hits.
It's basically YouTube "Downfall" clips stomping on a human face, forever.
Edited by Terminus-Est2 minutes ago, Terminus-Est said:Totally second this - still enjoying the game hugely, though I have to say pretty much every game community I'm adjacent to has a public face dominated by naysayers.
AFAICT, game podcasters/streamers (and arguably commentators in other more serious fields) have collectively figured out that sorta-entertaining rants, salt, strong opinions and fear are the most reliable sources of hits.
It's basically YouTube "Downfall" clips stomping on a human face, forever.
I'm not so sure. I'm very positive, never the naysayer. I'm also hugely enjoying the game.
But I believe that it's really taking a wrong turn, and that frustrates me. Also because I'm suddenly one of the doom&gloom people, something I never was nor want to be.
30 minutes ago, Terminus-Est said:AFAICT, game podcasters/streamers (and arguably commentators in other more serious fields) have collectively figured out that sorta-entertaining rants, salt, strong opinions and fear are the most reliable sources of hits.
...thus following the trend of pretty much all media sources, worldwide. Controversy creates cash.
38 minutes ago, Terminus-Est said:have collectively figured out that sorta-entertaining rants, salt, strong opinions and fear are the most reliable sources of hits.
Indeed. That's pretty much discussions on the Internet.
10 hours ago, Rat of Vengence said:The doom and gloom brigade get a lot of airtime; perhaps they have figured people want to have their worst fears confirmed? I guess that's why I don't bother with many podcasts lol.
Misery loves company 
11 hours ago, Icelom said:I don't know who you are playing but I 100% fear my opponent. I know the people locally who are good pilots and that's who I loose to not the list.
If you are loosing to weaker pilots it's because either they are not as weak as you think they are or you are not as good as you think you are.
If I see a meta list flown by someone I rutinly beat I am not worried at all, however if I see an opponent I have struggled against before pull out some janky list I get a bit worried.
Maybe it's not the game, maybe it's you.
And if a good player plays meta list he/she will be good with that as well. I am not saying some lists don't preform better then others I am saying the player playing the list is way more important then the list.
Note: that being said there are some things on the other side of the board I like to see because I have a great history of destroying them (ghost, decimator, Biggs, any 2 ship list). No matter who is flying them, but good players can still beat me with them on occasion.
As I said in my original post, I'm talking about when you're at round 5+ of major events (system open, 120+ regionals, gencon, worlds) where you're sitting either undefeated or with 1 loss. At Gencon 2014 when I drew Paul Heaver in round 6, I knew it was going to be an uphill battle, even though my list gave me an advantage (note - he won, but it was down to a 3 hull Falcon vs. a 2 hull E wing and a 4 hull HWK when he one shotted the HWK, leaving the E wing unable to punch through the MF evade and C3PO shenanigans that occurred back then. He was the better player but my list held the advantage and it really went down to the wire). When I continuously draw against Jeff Berling and Phil Horny I used to know it was pretty much an auto-loss because they're better players than I am. But most recently I 100% tabled Berling because I had the list match up against him. He's still a better player than me, but I got the 200-0 win over him during Round 6 of the Michigan Regionals. IMO, that's not healthy for the game. I understand RPS will always be apart of the game, but I should be concerned that I'm playing the Berling brothers, not salivating that my list beats theirs.
Edited by Khyros8 hours ago, Sasajak said:Playing with them or against them I see them as a reward for good flying. After the many, many comments on here that bemoan the lack of need for good manoeuvring (partly due to the prevalence of turrets) CM should be welcomed as a "fix" to encourage skilled flying.
Precisely, they are totally NOT power creep. It's so easy to avoid a 5 dice Cruise Missile that they definitely are not Power Creep.
Plus, they are the only one missile which doesn't work well with EM. Because is pretty difficult to shoot them well at the first engage, that it becomes likely impossibile to shoot them well in the middle/late game.
No, really: those are not Power Creeps at all. Homing Missile still way more solid and power creep than Cruise ones.
There's two core types of players in the game, or in pretty much any game system. The standard beer & pretzels gamers who I'd guess make up about 70% to 80% of the community (in a random off the top of my head kind of number) and the balance who are hard-core tournament/competitive players who make up the balance. The minority of the player base generally is also the loudest group when it comes to talking/yelling/arguing about what's broken or off-balance. They're the ones who'll find the broken combos and exploit them to no end.
In my local FLGS community, we have never had as many excited and enthusiastic players as we do now. There's almost no one in the local group that will go to anything above a store championship. We have in the past, but we find that it's too intense, too much nerd testosterone, and too many people who'd rather win than have fun. So we just decided, without really any discussion, that we just simply don't bother going. We hold store championships, invite players who we know are much better from other nearby communities who we know will probably win the day. Instead, we host our own participatory tournaments with our own rules, and we have an amazing time. Sure, someone wins and someone loses, but it's not a cutthroat competition to be the best nerd pushing toy plastic spaceships around a map. It's just fun.
Fun. Try it some time. You may find it fun! 
18 hours ago, MrAndersson said:
If you think a meta where lists have matchups that are autowins and autolosses is a good thing, then yes, I would be inclined to call you crazy. Well, maybe not crazy, but you and I have fundamentally very different views on the game.
I am of the opinion that your flying skills should win you games, not whether or not your list is the rock to your opponent's scissor.
Ignoring the meta, there will always be autowin/autolose combinations in this game. Given players of equal ability, every squad build is a compromise. Number of ships vs higher PS pilots, cheap vs expensive, etc..
Take for instance 5 x GSP A-Wings, fully kitted out to 100 pts vs 3 x Upsilon shuttles. Ten attack dice vs 12, 20 HP vs 36. Not necessarily an autowin for the Imps but a long, hard, uphill battle for the Rebels.
18 hours ago, Khyros said:I second this. Yes, there's still a ton of RPS going on. But I feel like it used to be when rock faced paper, he had a 35-40% chance to win... the match up favored one side, but it was still anyone's game (heck, even look at the hoth open 2016 where Rinehart had to go against palp aces 3 times with his triple jumps to win... his skill outdid the matchup). But now I feel like if rock comes up against paper, it's more like a 20% chance to win. And when you're in round 5+, every. single. person is highly skilled. You can no longer rely on capitalizing on the other's mistakes as there won't be any. This is my biggest complaint with X wing right now... not that it's still RPS, or that certain lists are much stronger, or even power creep... it's that it feels like the list match up is a crucial portion of how far you go in the tourney, and you don't have any control over that. I should fear the player across from me, not the list he's bringing.
I agree with most of what said but for different reasons. Regarding squad builds being crucial to tournament standing. I don't think this has changed since 2012 but it has turned into a bigger part of the game. With newer ships and upgrade cards, small changes in your squad can have a much bigger effect than in earlier years. Look back at a previous worlds when Heaver faced an almost mirror match vs another Fat Han for a minor build change and an opponent's tactical error. R2-D2 vs Gunner was the difference in the 1300 build.
Players have become more, sophisticated, for lack of a better word. Placement of obstacles is now more science than just throwing down a rock and checking range. During building they have access to more upgrades, looking for added action economy and efficiency with newer ships and pilots. With the number of games being streamed now, players can scout the competition from the local gaming scene up through Worlds which can give them a distinct advantage.
The RPS analogy falls apart faster the more waves are released. Where once BBBBZ was a force to be reckoned with it's easily dealt with now. The same applies to the 4 x TLT Y-Wings that was a boogeyman for a short time. As more options enter the game, the further some builds move away from being viable. Power Creep, Accretion or whatever you wish to call it doesn't just affect red dice.
I don't think the game is as warped as you feel it is. I do think that certain builds highlight the not so subtle changes in the game that tend to upset some people.
21 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:...and yet the older players actively clamoured for these changes. Right here, on these very forums.
"Make ordnance viable! Bombs are useless! Buff this! Fix that!"
Maybe the moral should be: be careful what you wish for.
We've been asking for a certain ship too...
Please, FFG, make me regret for asking the Gunboat (after you release a completely OP Assault Gunboat that will be the only ship in the table)
6 hours ago, Slugrage said:There's two core types of players in the game, or in pretty much any game system. The standard beer & pretzels gamers who I'd guess make up about 70% to 80% of the community (in a random off the top of my head kind of number) and the balance who are hard-core tournament/competitive players who make up the balance. The minority of the player base generally is also the loudest group when it comes to talking/yelling/arguing about what's broken or off-balance. They're the ones who'll find the broken combos and exploit them to no end.
(1)
In my local FLGS community, we have never had as many excited and enthusiastic players as we do now. There's almost no one in the local group that will go to anything above a store championship. We have in the past, but we find that it's too intense, too much nerd testosterone, and too many people who'd rather win than have fun. So we just decided, without really any discussion, that we just simply don't bother going. We hold store championships, invite players who we know are much better from other nearby communities who we know will probably win the day. Instead, we host our own participatory tournaments with our own rules, and we have an amazing time. Sure, someone wins and someone loses, but it's not a cutthroat competition to be the best nerd pushing toy plastic spaceships around a map. It's just fun.(2)
Fun. Try it some time. You may find it fun!
1. I disagree here - the "complaining group" is not the competitive players necessarily. I'd say it's more likely to be the players who look for a reason why they aren't competitive. It's not their flying obviously, it's the meta, and NPEs, and power creep. They rarely have evidence to prove that their hated lists are autowin junk that takes no skill because that would mean flying it. Sure, competitive players strive to win and find the best lists - that's not complaining, it's trying to win (which is... fun!)
2. I've had the opposite experience with events. The community I've met has been great, and there's even an increase in fun when they're playing top tables at regionals (I don't make it up there but I'll watch them, and it's impressive). Nothing's cutthroat - everybody wants to win, and there's banter - but everyone's mates. So yeah... fun - try it some time
I too like X-wing immensely right now and I am a filthy tournament player. I do not fly Jumpmasters, use mindlink, or Biggs Lohrick. Guns for Hire is on the boat and it will forever be my favorite expansion. I'm still happy that ordnance has been fixed.
Biggs Lowhrick is the worst thing currently, but it's not as bad as Dengaroo or Parattani were. There are so many new lists to explore. Currently I'm exploring the immense potential that 'Operations Specialist' has. I'm only just getting around to it because I had to find out how amazing Quadjumpers are.
People will be extra salty about everything this month because of the eclipse. That's what's happening. Things will be better next month when the moon waves dissipate. Speaking generally, don't make any big life decisions this month FYI.
6 hours ago, Stoneface said:Ignoring the meta...
The only thing I can offer in response to that is a facepalm.
1 hour ago, MrAndersson said:
The only thing I can offer in response to that is a facepalm.
And your point is?
OP, you are definitely crazy.....I haven't received my preorders of G4H yet! Truthfully, once that's out and they finally nerf jumpmasters (but hopefully not mindlink) , I feel like everything will be in a perfect place. Imperials do need a touch of love, but if they un-nerf Palps in the FAQ then they should be good.