6 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

Yeah, but the Crab are incapable of building and standing on a wall without eventually selling out to the people they're supposed to be defending it from. In this case they would have to sell out to both the Crane and the Unicorn, which would get confusing.

Hmmp.

It only happened once, and technically now it's never happened at all.

so Nyah Nyah ?????????????????

1 hour ago, TroutNinja said:

When the army that one family can field equals the army of another entire clan, I don't see the risk.

If warfare were strictly a numbers game, we wouldn't need strategists. Even if we're just talking about one front, the Soviets found out against the Finns that fighting merely to drown the enemy in blood can have significant cost. The Red Army outnumbered the Finnish Army at least 3-to-1 in men, 30-to-1 in aircraft, and 100-to-1 in tanks, and still received four to five times as many casualties. The blood the Finns drowned in was mostly supplied by their enemy.

...and that's just looking at trying to fight on one front using numbers as your primary strategy. When fighting on multiple fronts, problems increase many-fold. Logistics and supply lines become that much harder to figure out. There are fewer places "away from the front(s)" to send wounded and to grow/manufacture supplies. And of course, if your enemies are working together, it gets even worse!

Fighting on multiple fronts may be necessary at times, but any leader who would actively seek out such a situation ought to be carefully checked out for madness!

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

If warfare were strictly a numbers game, we wouldn't need strategists. Even if we're just talking about one front, the Soviets found out against the Finns that fighting merely to drown the enemy in blood can have significant cost. The Red Army outnumbered the Finnish Army at least 3-to-1 in men, 30-to-1 in aircraft, and 100-to-1 in tanks, and still received four to five times as many casualties. The blood the Finns drowned in was mostly supplied by their enemy.

...and that's just looking at trying to fight on one front using numbers as your primary strategy. When fighting on multiple fronts, problems increase many-fold. Logistics and supply lines become that much harder to figure out. There are fewer places "away from the front(s)" to send wounded and to grow/manufacture supplies. And of course, if your enemies are working together, it gets even worse!

Fighting on multiple fronts may be necessary at times, but any leader who would actively seek out such a situation ought to be carefully checked out for madness!

But the Lion have the numbers and the best tacticians in the empire, so... I think they need two fronts simultaneously so the war is not just a joke.

Funny thing that people forget that Dragon has issues with the Lion (Unicorn helps Dragon with more than warm bodies).

20 minutes ago, Mirumoto Saito said:

But the Lion have the numbers and the best tacticians in the empire, so... I think they need two fronts simultaneously so the war is not just a joke.

That's just it, though. The Lion actively pursuing war on two fronts would cast serious doubt on their clams to having "the best tacticians in the Empire"...

9 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

That's just it, though. The Lion actively pursuing war on two fronts would cast serious doubt on their clams to having "the best tacticians in the Empire"...

Unless they won both, in which case... 'Best tacticians in the Empire.' Remember, actual interclan war requires the Emperor's approval. Usually that means that they go to court, tell the emperor what they want out of the war, and only pursue that one item. In the case of the Crane, it'd be Otosan Uchi. In the case of the Unicorn, it'd be a war of honor over that disputed province and a broken treaty.

They would then pursue that one victory condition.

All I know about Lion tacticians in the current, canon fiction is that the ponies hurt em good after plowing through the wall and they failed to anticipate and prevent an obvious trap set to kill their champion. So much for masterful...

2 minutes ago, TroutNinja said:

Unless they won both, in which case... 'Best tacticians in the Empire.' Remember, actual interclan war requires the Emperor's approval. Usually that means that they go to court, tell the emperor what they want out of the war, and only pursue that one item. In the case of the Crane, it'd be Otosan Uchi. In the case of the Unicorn, it'd be a war of honor over that disputed province and a broken treaty.

They would then pursue that one victory condition.

I disagree. If they won two simultaneous wars that they got themselves into, it would be in spite of their poor strategic choices, not because of them.

Not everyone in the clan is going to be a master tactician. You can have all the smartest guys in the Empire, but if your leadership doesn't listen then it doesn't much matter. Arasou listened to Tsuko instead of Toturi in the fiction. That speaks volumes about Arasou's leadership. I think deliberately we are given Toturi and Tsuko in the introductory fiction to show us both extremes of the Lion embodied by a character. Tsuko shows us excellent courage and confidence in the Lion's martial prowess, but also showcases a lust for battle that can be a huge liability. Toturi shows us a brilliant analytical mind (don't be fooled by Tsuko's POV of Toturi. She's an unreliable narrator), but also an indecisiveness which can come from overthinking the issues at hand. The Lion need to find unity and balance. Up until this point the Tsuko's of the clan had the reigns under Arasou's leadership. The question is what will Toturi do about it now. The more I think about that fiction the more I really like the Lion clan's current struggle.

26 minutes ago, Zetsubou said:

All I know about Lion tacticians in the current, canon fiction is that the ponies hurt em good after plowing through the wall and they failed to anticipate and prevent an obvious trap set to kill their champion. So much for masterful...

What does that say about the Unicorn's prowess if they get out maneuvered politically by the same poor tacticians. Really, 200 years and they couldn't research marriage policies?

7 minutes ago, TroutNinja said:

What does that say about the Unicorn's prowess if they get out maneuvered politically by the same poor tacticians. Really, 200 years and they couldn't research marriage policies?

Those 200 years were like a super lengthy Burning Man (why do you think we are so buddy buddy with dragon?), we were concerned with more than petty politics, man.

On a meta note, I would like to point out that the only political skirmish that has played out in fiction so far hard Lion screwing Crane so apparently the world has gone to ****.

3 hours ago, Zetsubou said:

Those 200 years were like a super lengthy Burning Man (why do you think we are so buddy buddy with dragon?), we were concerned with more than petty politics, man.

On a meta note, I would like to point out that the only political skirmish that has played out in fiction so far hard Lion screwing Crane so apparently the world has gone to ****.

And Crane caught the Lion troops in a trap and two-shoted their champion in battle, not a duel, actual battle. Up is down, left is right and shaking hands is the proper way to greet people. Pure madness.

9 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I disagree. If they won two simultaneous wars that they got themselves into, it would be in spite of their poor strategic choices, not because of them.

Lion are master tacticians, but matters of honour are more important still. The Lion are at a war with the Crane, and now it seems they have either an option to throw themselves to a possibly disadvantageous two-front war by attacking the Unicorn... or losing face by letting the insult go unanswered.

Honestly, in-universe, it would make perfect sense for the Lion to win both fights. But you also have to remember it's the Lion we're talking about here. They'd be ready to face every **** other clan in a hopeless war they knew they would lose if the alternative meant losing their honour and their ancestors' favour. And they'd probably still fight **** well.

41 minutes ago, Smobey said:

Honestly, in-universe, it would make perfect sense for the Lion to win both fights. But you also have to remember it's the Lion we're talking about here. They'd be ready to face every **** other clan in a hopeless war they knew they would lose if the alternative meant losing their honour and their ancestors' favour. And they'd probably still fight **** well.

Yep.

And we'd lose, too, because we'd fight Lion-style: by working out what our opponent's greatest strength is, and then act in a way that allows them to exploit that strength.

It hasn't worked up until now, but it's the way out ancestors did it, so it's the way we'll continue doing it.

is it though, if the lion had the smallest army and still consistently won then they could rightly claim to be master tacticians. Since they have the largest army they don't need to be that good tactically. Perhaps the master flag is just because they win through having the biggest army but like fooling themselves that it was actually down to skill. There is a lot of historical precedence for large armies winning wars and imagining it was due to brilliance or the natural superiority of their soldiers .

4 hours ago, Matrim said:

is it though, if the lion had the smallest army and still consistently won then they could rightly claim to be master tacticians. Since they have the largest army they don't need to be that good tactically. Perhaps the master flag is just because they win through having the biggest army but like fooling themselves that it was actually down to skill. There is a lot of historical precedence for large armies winning wars and imagining it was due to brilliance or the natural superiority of their soldiers .

Lion being so prideful and arrogant to claim to be the best of the best soldiers, and win through brilliance?

Doesn't sound so Lion-y to me.

7 hours ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

Yep.

And we'd lose, too, because we'd fight Lion-style: by working out what our opponent's greatest strength is, and then act in a way that allows them to exploit that strength.

It hasn't worked up until now, but it's the way out ancestors did it, so it's the way we'll continue doing it.

It is a well known fact that the Lion value losing like their ancestors over winning through something so dishonorable as ingenuity.

40 minutes ago, Zetsubou said:

It is a well known fact that the Lion value losing like their ancestors over winning through something so dishonorable as ingenuity.

Or story teams like to continually have 'upsets' so the greatest in a specific thing usually lose. Lion losing battles, Phoenix doing unwise things, Crane losing in court. Other clans remain true to their themes. Scorpion being underhanded, Unicorn being compassionate, Dragon being enigmatic and Crab defending the wall (except that one time when they didn't.)

5 minutes ago, TroutNinja said:

Or story teams like to continually have 'upsets' so the greatest in a specific thing usually lose. Lion losing battles, Phoenix doing unwise things, Crane losing in court. Other clans remain true to their themes. Scorpion being underhanded, Unicorn being compassionate, Dragon being enigmatic and Crab defending the wall (except that one time when they didn't.)

Certainly, but I have to explain that all away somehow!

We just need to invent the concept of the second-in-command. That way, when Akodo McGeneral gets killed by a duellist or a lucky arrow, the entire army won't lose by default despite being far larger and better trained.

Gimme a copy of Leadership and some pencils. I better write this in.

5 minutes ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

We just need to invent the concept of the second-in-command. That way, when Akodo McGeneral gets killed by a duellist or a lucky arrow, the entire army won't lose by default despite being far larger and better trained.

Gimme a copy of Leadership and some pencils. I better write this in.

Think the best army in the world would invent a leadership structure.

2 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Think the best army in the world would invent a leadership structure.

"Best army in the world" is relative. If we're what passes for brilliant strategists, then I wonder what the other clans are like?

A proud Lion upset that the other clans can see that they aren't perfect

8 minutes ago, phillos said:

A proud Lion upset that the other clans can see that they aren't perfect

Perfection is immaterial, I'd just like some actual competence. Not holding my breath though, it seems to me that the Lion are being set up to be villains and bullies which says to me that they will lose.

okay