Liking LWF so far, and being an Imperial am contractually obligated to fetishize swarms.

So looking at either of these options:

• 4x TIE Aggressor + TLT + LWF
• 4x TIE/sf + title + CD + LWF

Theoretically the same agility and attack, although both ships attack higher most of the time. The TIE/sf has one point better defense (and defense biased towards shields compared to the Aggressor)...on the other hand, oww that dial, tho ! Same action bar on each, too, and PS only one apart between the Zeta Specialist vs Sienar Specialist.

So it would seem like it will really come down to the weapon. The title TIE/SF can either shoot forward and back for 2 attack each, or once forward at 3 attack...while the Aggressor has a 360-arc with a range-1 donut hole and attacks with 3 dice twice (although max damage on each attack is 1).

My gut feeling is that the Aggressor is going to prove far more capable, but curious on thoughts...

SF, only because multiple TLT carriers suck as a play experience. Not saying their unbeatable (far from it); but it's rarely an enjoyable game.

Can't you take the PS 3 TIE/sf so they can all have Fire-control System instead of Collision Detector? I think that's totally the way to go.

4 SFs all the way. How cool would 4 of them look together. And all the chances for taking 2 shots in a turn. Its just a more interesting arc map to play with.

I would dump the LWF to be honest. Burn the place down and rely on your shields.

5 Scarif Defenders with LWF and AA.

PURE GENIUS.

2 minutes ago, Warlon said:

5 Scarif Defenders with LWF and AA.

PURE GENIUS.

Considered it, but sadly not enough survivability. Same agility as either option, above, sure - but only as much defense as even the (inferior of the two) TIE Aggressor group. And 20% of the TIE Aggressors defense points are in shields, while the Striker is hull, only. The TIE/sf group just blows right past both of them, there. And finally, while both other ships also have out-of-arc firing capabilities, the TIE Striker doesn't. Sort of a big deal when working with relatively low numbers of low-skill ships. (Frustrating when dealing with a game that has PS9 Poe + BB9 + Intensity ...doesn't matter how well you guess what the enemy planned for his maneuver - if his PS is higher than yours, he just ain't gonna be there when it comes time to shoot. It's largely this reason that has me looking at the TLTs).

9 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Considered it, but sadly not enough survivability. Same agility as either option, above, sure - but only as much defense as even the (inferior of the two) TIE Aggressor group. And 20% of the TIE Aggressors defense points are in shields, while the Striker is hull, only. The TIE/sf group just blows right past both of them, there. And finally, while both other ships also have out-of-arc firing capabilities, the TIE Striker doesn't. Sort of a big deal when working with relatively low numbers of low-skill ships. (Frustrating when dealing with a game that has PS9 Poe + BB9 + Intensity ...doesn't matter how well you guess what the enemy planned for his maneuver - if his PS is higher than yours, he just ain't gonna be there when it comes time to shoot. It's largely this reason that has me looking at the TLTs).

GEEEEEEEEEENIUUUUUUUSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!

In all seriousness, Strikers are surprisingly durable, if flown correctly.

Their use of Adaptive Ailerons is what keeps them safe, able to get in and out of positions that even the likes of Soontir Fel or Fenn Rau would have trouble achieving. I haven't flown them a whole whole lot (darn you work!!!!!) But each time I've flown them they've been able to keep up and outmaneuver just about every pilot.

10 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Considered it, but sadly not enough survivability. Same agility as either option, above, sure - but only as much defense as even the (inferior of the two) TIE Aggressor group. And 20% of the TIE Aggressors defense points are in shields, while the Striker is hull, only. The TIE/sf group just blows right past both of them, there. And finally, while both other ships also have out-of-arc firing capabilities, the TIE Striker doesn't. Sort of a big deal when working with relatively low numbers of low-skill ships. (Frustrating when dealing with a game that has PS9 Poe + BB9 + Intensity ...doesn't matter how well you guess what the enemy planned for his maneuver - if his PS is higher than yours, he just ain't gonna be there when it comes time to shoot. It's largely this reason that has me looking at the TLTs).

Wait, how do you get strikers having less defense? Striker swarms are 5 ships, not 4. Same HP as 4x TLTs.

Just now, Polaritie said:

Wait, how do you get strikers having less defense? Striker swarms are 5 ships, not 4. Same HP as 4x TLTs.

That's what I said? Same HP as the 4x TLTs, but the 4x TLTs are 16 hull and 4 shield vs 20 hull - shields are handier to have to avoiding first-attack crits that end you before you can even fire. The TIE/sf goes higher, yet - it's 24 defense (12 shield and 12 hull)

1 minute ago, xanderf said:

That's what I said? Same HP as the 4x TLTs, but the 4x TLTs are 16 hull and 4 shield vs 20 hull - shields are handier to have to avoiding first-attack crits that end you before you can even fire. The TIE/sf goes higher, yet - it's 24 defense (12 shield and 12 hull)

Bleh, misread your post

@OP

Hedge your exposure - take 2 of each!

20 minutes ago, ABXY said:

@OP

Hedge your exposure - take 2 of each!

MIXING ERAS?!

31 minutes ago, xanderf said:

MIXING ERAS?!

The Aggies were on a verrrry deep space recon mission - by the time they got back, things had...

...changed somewhat.

4 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

4 SFs all the way. How cool would 4 of them look together. And all the chances for taking 2 shots in a turn. Its just a more interesting arc map to play with.

I would dump the LWF to be honest. Burn the place down and rely on your shields.

This. FCS is hugely valuable on the SF, and with 3 shield and 3 hull apiece, the LWF is less of a requirement. In particular, it lets you sloop then take a modified shot, which is pretty valuable.

4 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Can't you take the PS 3 TIE/sf so they can all have Fire-control System instead of Collision Detector? I think that's totally the way to go.

Yes.

Zeta Specialists are 23 points, leaving you 2 points for any one of the following combinations. My recommendations bolded.:

Boost Attack

• Special Forces Training, Fire Control System
• Special Forces Training, Electronic Baffle, XX-23 S-Thread Tracers, Guidance Chips
• Special Forces Training, Collision Detector, Weapons Guidance

Of the three......Fire Control System is just better. Weapons Guidance is nice enough, but on a 3-attack ship, the odds of not rolling a 'normal' focus result is reasonably low, and whilst getting free locks from thread tracers is nice....it's not garuanteed, and you're losing out on 'attack' shots from at least one ship. Plus they run out.

Boost Manouvrability

• Special Forces Training, Collision Detector, Primed Thrusters, Twin Ion Engines MkII
• Special Forces Training, Collision Detector, Pattern Analyser

Both of these are really good. The TIE/sf's dial is bad....with a lot of potential. The first combination can essentially play in debris to its heart's content; flying through it without risk and barrel rolling without a care, and with the green banks can shed the stress without slowing down too much. At the same time, unmodified attack dice do kinda suck.....so whilst it's not a bad build, it's best used on a pilot with an elite upgrade who can equip something to boost your combat potential. Predator is an obvious one, but if playing around in and near debris clouds, wired or trick shot give the same benefit for much lower cost.

Pattern Analyser, on the other hand, is a really good upgrade to 'open up' the TIE/sf's dial, and the one thing I'd consider potentially taking in preference to the Fire Control System - because unlimited locks are nice, but focus on a turn you shouldn't have an action is potentially much better, especially if needing to change targets.

Boost Defence

• Special Forces Training, Collision Detector, Sensor Clusters
• Special Forces Training, Collision Detector, Lightweight Frame

Both of these are nice. Sensor Cluster is better if you're going to have focus reliably and/or be shot at only once in a turn (neither of which is especially true), lightweight frame if not.

Would I take either in a swarm? No.

Because in a swarm, in theory, every ship is shooting every turn, but only one ship is being shot at in a turn. Therefore in any given turn you're benefitting from fire control 4 times but lightweight frame only once per incoming attack....which against most opponents is 2-3 attacks.

In a choice between FCS TIE/sf and TLT Aggressors.....in a straight fight, I'd say the TIE/sf have the edge. They can spam multiple, well modified 2-dice attacks, which is something lightweight frame craft hate, and they don't have to worry about critical effects, whilst the hull-heavy aggressors do.

Besides which, you don't see generic TIE/sf much. Given that the Baby Blues (4 x Blue Novice with R2 Astromech and Integrated Astromech) is a thing, it'd be interesting to see a TIE/sf equivalent get some use.

Because I don't like TLT:

"Double Edge" (19)
Adaptability (0)
Synced Turret (4)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Onyx Squadron Escort (19)
Synced Turret (4)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Onyx Squadron Escort (19)
Synced Turret (4)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Onyx Squadron Escort (19)
Synced Turret (4)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Because in a swarm, in theory, every ship is shooting every turn, but only one ship is being shot at in a turn. Therefore in any given turn you're benefitting from fire control 4 times but lightweight frame only once per incoming attack....which against most opponents is 2-3 attacks.

I'm not sure this 'in theory' is how things roll out?

I mean...vs Adv SLAMing Miranda, Poe+BB8+Intensity, Super Dash, etc?

It's more 'in a swarm, if you spread out your ships enough, one of them might get a shot; while the swarm ship least prepared to be attacked will be the one fired on in the turn'

10 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I'm not sure this 'in theory' is how things roll out?

I mean...vs Adv SLAMing Miranda, Poe+BB8+Intensity, Super Dash, etc?

It's more 'in a swarm, if you spread out your ships enough, one of them might get a shot; while the swarm ship least prepared to be attacked will be the one fired on in the turn'

It's somewhere between the two.

I'd assume that against someone elusive, one, maybe two ships won't have shots, and one or two will. Fortunately, with a superheavy swarm you're unlikely to easily lose one before it shoots.

Thats why personally I'd consider pattern analysers. Being able to pull speed 1 turns or segnors loops and still having an action goes a long way to getting you shots.

Can I cast a vote for LWF+UR TIE Punisher swarm? Not the worst squad to ever hit a table... but maybe a really fun one

3 hours ago, Arkanta974 said:

Omega Specialist (25) x 4
Special Forces TIE (25), Adaptability (0), Collision Detector (0), Special Ops Training (0)

Can work too

Make it Trick Shot instead of Adaptability and I'll back you up. The TIE/sf loves Trick Shot because they can play around in the asteroid cluster and get bonus dice. It's a lot of fun.

EDIT: I don't know what's with the spacing in the quote there. It won't let me delete it.

I'm not sure how durable any of these are, but the Tie SF list looks like a good challenge, looks fun

RoV

I tinkered with 4x tie sf with fire control and just did not like it (got my *** handed to me).

If you are doing a 3 red dice swarm style like that you really need more ships that leaves you with scum (m3a mangler, or k fighter but the mangler are better) or for empire (have not tried it yet mind you:

TIE Bomber: Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
TIE Bomber: Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
TIE Bomber: Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
TIE Bomber: Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
TIE Bomber: Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
-- TOTAL ------- 100p. --

This gives you a ton of hitpoints behind mostly 3 greens and a ton of red dice. The question is, is it better then mangler m3a's and my gut says no way, but I will give it a try.

I have not tried the 4x sf with lwf yet, my guess is it has more legs then the fire control varient. You need to keep your ships alive long enough to make those red dice happen. With 4 ships you can't afford to loose a ship a turn (unlike a 5 ship) with fire control you could loose 2x of your ships before any fire control target locks have been spent.

1 hour ago, Icelom said:

I tinkered with 4x tie sf with fire control and just did not like it (got my *** handed to me).

If you are doing a 3 red dice swarm style like that you really need more ships that leaves you with scum (m3a mangler, or k fighter but the mangler are better) or for empire (have not tried it yet mind you:

Uuuh...5 TIE Strikers?

12 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Uuuh...5 TIE Strikers?

Yes that too, but I think 5x strickers with lwf is sub par by far to 5x m3a's manglers, same hit points (not as good due to the one shield) worse defence, worse offence. You really have to make the adaptive alerons and sloops due work to have it catch up in value. The bombers get a big total hitpoint boost with situationally worse offence (when no focus) and situational better offence (at range 3) when compared to the 5x strickers.