So this was something I had bouncing around in my head the other day, and was curious how people had dealt with it in their games.

So, it seems a bit of general wisdom for this system, is that it's a good idea to have any combat start at roughly Medium range band, simply because of the fact that if you start farther away, you usually end up wasting a round or two with people not doing anything but moving up range bands. I distinctly remember an episode of the O 66, and GM...Chris? The one that Vapes and always says "What is up Gamer Nation"...I think that's Chris, gah, I'm terrible with names.

Anyway, that guy Made a point to say it's basically a waste of time to start at longer range.

But then there are snipers. A class whose entire point is being able to be super effective at long and extreme range. And some players really want to play a sniper, equally GM's might like to have a Sniper Rival or Nemesis for a party.

So how have you all dealt with this at your table, if at all? I think it's unfair to the Sniper PC to never let them stretch their legs and pop people at max range, since they spent XP on talents to do just that. But then it does run the problem of having the other PC's either standing their watching the death from afar, and passing the time making bets on who dies next, or having to run up and hope there are some things left for them to stab.

What seemed to make sense to me, was to introduce the threats at different range bands from the very start. Have a couple enemies at long/extreme, perhaps the Rival/Nemesises...Nemesie....them, in the back, and have the minions up front. That way, the short range/melee focused PC's can have someone close at hand to play Hide the Dagger with, while the Sniper has someone they can line up on from afar. And considering the possible massive amounts of damage that a Sniper can inflict, it might be a better idea to try and aim their blastery death at someone who can eat a lot of it, namely a Rival/Nemesis.

So yeah, thoughts? Ideas? Your own experiences with the pros/cons of this? Just felt like soundboarding and workshopping this idea for my own enjoyment.

Or indeed have reinforcements arriving from distance during the fight, with a line of sight for the sniper.

Starting combat outside some people's range is only a problem if fighting is all they can do. If they can move to better positions, use talents, prepare the battlefield and the like, everyone gets to act and the sniper gets to feel good about their specialization not being wasted. In addition, since attacking dealing damage is often the most mechanically difficult part of the game, player turns that don't include it will end relatively quickly.

My problem with snipers in this system is that a sniper with a high ranged (heavy) is just as good with an autofire rifle. This leads to taking the HBR, then a marksman barrel to engage at extreme (mod it out for accurate 2). If they feel lucky, take the extra purple for autofire. Snipers don't seem to get enough love. They need sniper rifles to have a lower crit value, or some other advantage.

2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

What seemed to make sense to me, was to introduce the threats at different range bands from the very start.

I've used this method before and can work very nicely.

Another thing you can do is set up situations where the PC's have to go meet with a group which might turn hostile, and let the sniper set up at extreme range ahead of time; then if a fight does break out, they can support their comrades from 'off the board'.

1 hour ago, Vorzakk said:

I've used this method before and can work very nicely.

Another thing you can do is set up situations where the PC's have to go meet with a group which might turn hostile, and let the sniper set up at extreme range ahead of time; then if a fight does break out, they can support their comrades from 'off the board'.

I can also see other scenarios involving the rest of the group at close range. "Oh, hello, Mr. Boddy, nice party you're throwing. I'm Ambassador Distraction. Why don't we chat over on that nice open balcony? Fresh air is nice."

In terms of combat scenarios, where you're specifically designing a fight, I would absolutely spread the baddies out over several range bands. The only trouble with this is that it can get a bit... nebulous... about which groups are at which range from which other groups. Having a good map helps me quite a bit. I also use minis, not necessarily in the wargame/tactical simulation sense, more to show players who's where and what they might or might not be able to see from their position(s).

I like the snipers on both sides of the field.

To start at long to extrem range the Sniper player has to set up the battle field, "random" encounters or better encounters the players did not see coming mostly start at medium to long (no perfect for the sniper but also not perfect for the deathstick users).

On the enemy side, if it is a trap the Evil sniper has a primeposition and won't be detected so easily, mostlikely the players gain a perception or vigilance check to determin that there is someone else then the normal badies on the ground AFTER he has shot. In this trap scenarios there are enough baddie minions and rivals on the ground to keep the SCs busy for 1-2 rounds, or an obstacle that can't just be overcome that easily (like a canyone, a big trench, pool of acid/lava/boiling water, any kind of gap on a floating city) so the SC have to think a little more than just "GO! SLASH! KILL! WIN!" (This can become an sniper shootout if both sides have one ^^)

10 hours ago, Edgookin said:

My problem with snipers in this system is that a sniper with a high ranged (heavy) is just as good with an autofire rifle. This leads to taking the HBR, then a marksman barrel to engage at extreme (mod it out for accurate 2). If they feel lucky, take the extra purple for autofire. Snipers don't seem to get enough love. They need sniper rifles to have a lower crit value, or some other advantage.

One of my PCs basicly did this. He first off customized his blaster rifle to effectivly be a sniper and then proceeds to pick up a Heavy Blaster Rifle from a successful ambush. He then proceeded to use the HBR while still carrying his BR. Even ditched his armor and other equipment to stay within encum threshhold. I've had to take it away from him after a bit of time (they got captured).

Why not just make your own sniper rifle stats?

Damage 10; Crit 2; Viscous 3; Piercing 4; Accuracy 2; Scope (treat ranged difficulties as one / two bands closer IE: Extreme becomes Medium) That'd give any melee character a reason to run away.

18 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

So yeah, thoughts? Ideas? Your own experiences with the pros/cons of this? Just felt like soundboarding and workshopping this idea for my own enjoyment.

We are early in a new campaign, but we have a party that includes a melee combatant, short ranged combatant (gunslinger), and sniper. The sniper covers the part from long range in our marching order, while the short range folks stay much tighter together. This allows all of us to support each other and be effective in combat when needed.

1 hour ago, P-Dub663 said:

Damage 10; Crit 2; Viscous 30; Piercing 4; Accuracy 2; Scope (treat ranged difficulties as one / two bands closer IE: Extreme becomes Medium) That'd give any melee character a reason to run away.

Now I'm curious, is that 30 supposed to be 3? Vicious 30 would mean any target would instantly die on a crit (possibly what you intended), but Vicious 3 would make sense with the games current weapons (although this one would be a drastic improvement).

Unless of course you're experimenting with a new rule called viscous #.

To the original post, I've run snipers as a GM, and seen a player play as one. When I ran snipers (Scout Troopers), I had them "hidden" so that the PC's would have to look for them, or the troopers would have to roll poorly, but the PC's generally had more important things to deal with than the snipers (about 20 stormtroopers and an AT-ST to be precise, though the PCs did have backup), and since they only spotted one of the sniper groups when the AT-ST and stormtroopers were defeated the scout troopers escaped since they where much father away.

When I've seen characters that are snipers, in my group at least, they tend to not have that many chances to actually use their rifle. 1-2 shots per encounter, sometimes 3 if they're lucky, then they have to switch to a backup weapon that's better verses minion groups, or multiple rivals.

20 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

What seemed to make sense to me, was to introduce the threats at different range bands from the very start. Have a couple enemies at long/extreme, perhaps the Rival/Nemesises...Nemesie....them, in the back, and have the minions up front. That way, the short range/melee focused PC's can have someone close at hand to play Hide the Dagger with, while the Sniper has someone they can line up on from afar. And considering the possible massive amounts of damage that a Sniper can inflict, it might be a better idea to try and aim their blastery death at someone who can eat a lot of it, namely a Rival/Nemesis .

Want a great example of how to set up PC snipers? Watch the first episode of Firefly (never a bad thing, anyway...). The mix of characters at close range, with Jayne at extreme with the sniper rifle, is just about perfect.

And, Firefly...

5 minutes ago, Bishop69 said:

Want a great example of how to set up PC snipers? Watch the first episode of Firefly (never a bad thing, anyway...). The mix of characters at close range, with Jayne at extreme with the sniper rifle, is just about perfect.

And, Firefly...

Well yeah, I just was curious in general, how GM's had dealt with this range issue, considering the common opinion of "start at Medium" for most combat engagements. Mostly on the side of Sniper PC's, from the GM side. Meaning how did they provide sufficient targets to let the Sniper feel useful, and justified in spending XP in those range talents, without leaving the rest of the party running to try and get close to fight.

The whole point of snipers is to choose the ground ahead of time. A sniper has limited options if they walk around the corner into an unexpected encounter. If they are in position ahead of time, on the other hand... in other words - snipers require planning ahead on the party's part.

And if you're worried about having too many or too few targets... start small to medium and build up. A group of reinforcements can always be just around the corner (so to speak) if needed. You're the GM. Just make that happen, or not, as needed.

54 minutes ago, Imperial Stormtrooper said:

Now I'm curious, is that 30 supposed to be 3? Vicious 30 would mean any target would instantly die on a crit (possibly what you intended), but Vicious 3 would make sense with the games current weapons (although this one would be a drastic improvement).

Thanks for pointing out my typo

We have a bounty hunter in our party who occasionally plays sniper and it has led to some great scenes.

In one scene the party went into a tense negotiation with a Hutt leaving the sniper outside...with a sonic scope and a Pierce 4 rifle. When the PCs needed to make a Coercion check one of them picked up a piece of fruit tossed it in the air (sniper made a check) and a blaster bolt came through the wall and vaporized it. The successful shot upgraded their Coercion and the sniper got enough advantage to upgrade it a second time and add a boost die.

Another scene had the sniper essentially off map tracking a lone stealthy PC as they infiltrated a camp. The sniper (again with his sonic scope) warned of incoming threats before the stealth PC new they were coming and when she got into a difficult spot she created enough noise to cover the sound of the sniper shots that took out their enemies. It was a great teamwork scene.

In another case the party encountered an enemy sniper of equal skill and when these two finally had a chance to shoot at each other (after picking off each others allies who were engaged with the other PCs) we decided to resolve it with a competitive combat check rather than using initiative order. This worked great as the PC won with a Triumph and 2 advantage. So he really felt like his rifle skills made the difference over an equally competent foe. Had we used initiative it would have merely been an initiative check that decided the outcome.

Most of the time this PC is an auto-fire guru, but these scenes really helped sell how especially capable he is.

On 8/9/2017 at 4:32 PM, Edgookin said:

My problem with snipers in this system is that a sniper with a high ranged (heavy) is just as good with an autofire rifle. This leads to taking the HBR, then a marksman barrel to engage at extreme (mod it out for accurate 2). If they feel lucky, take the extra purple for autofire. Snipers don't seem to get enough love. They need sniper rifles to have a lower crit value, or some other advantage.

Technically though, you probably can't do that.

Check the mods description. The Marksman barrel specifies that it only work with "blaster rifles." Other mods, like the augmented spin barrel, specify they work with "blaster rifles and heavy blaster rifles."

It's of course a matter of you and your GM, but it looks to me like heavy rifles can't take a marksman barrel.

11 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

Technically though, you probably can't do that.

Check the mods description. The Marksman barrel specifies that it only work with "blaster rifles." Other mods, like the augmented spin barrel, specify they work with "blaster rifles and heavy blaster rifles."

It's of course a matter of you and your GM, but it looks to me like heavy rifles can't take a marksman barrel.

Even if you could, it would be flat impractical. HBRs are already Cumbersome 3 which is reasonable. Unless you are Brawn 1, a simple Weapon Sling makes it accessible. The range-increasing barrels both increase the Cumbersome quality by +2 and take either 2 (Marksman) or 3 (Hunting) hard points, which means that the HBR now has Cumbersome 5. Supposing you don't want setback dice from Cumbersome, that means you need to dedicate more hard points to get the HBR to a point where you can wield it effectively. For 1 additional HP, a Brawn 4 can use a Weapon Sling while a Brawn 3 can use a bipod at the cost of a preparation maneuver. For 2 HP (so the entirety of the HBR's attachments), a Brawn 3 can use a Weapon Harness and a Gyrostabilizer can make it usable by down to a Brawn 1 IF you can succeed on the modifications.

By comparison, I could take an M-300 Hunting Blaster and have anyone with Brawn 2 get Accurate 1, Pierce 2, and the ability to shoot at Extreme range as easily as the HBR shoots at Medium (using a HP for the telescoping optical sight). A Model 38 can be equipped for either Accurate 2, Pierce 3 or Accurate 2, Blast 5, Knockdown and still have 4 HP to work with. Heck, I could take a Weequay Blaster Lance and modify it to have Auto-Fire.

Farther up, there was a suggestion that would work better. A modified Blaster Rifle as a sniper and an HBR as your weapon for shorter distances. This strategy necessarily has a problem with encumbrance, but even just the BR is a useful sniping tool. With just the Marksman's Barrel, we end up with a 9 damage, Cumbersome 2 rifle with Auto-Fire and the potential for Accurate 2, all with 2 HP to spare. Compare that to the Weequay Blaster Lance which has 8 damage, Accurate 1, Cumbersome 2, and has 1 more encumbrance while having 2 HP. The BR with a Marksman Barrel is superior in every way to the lance, though I suppose that is the nature of the game. The Model 38 and the M-300 both compare favorably to the sniper BR, with less potential damage counteracted by other useful features. The E-11S and Takedown Rifles are quite possibly superior as rifle weapons, but it is difficult to quantify the effects of Slow-Firing 1 and so I have left off those comparisons. Honestly, though, the BR does very well against them. Which is why, I suppose, the BR is fairly ubiquitous in the galaxy. It is a cheap and versatile weapon while the sniper rifles are dedicated hardware.

I recommend sniping with a Silhouette 2 vehicle and an Auto-Blaster. Against personal-scale targets, Range will not be an issue.

18 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I recommend sniping with a Silhouette 2 vehicle and an Auto-Blaster. Against personal-scale targets, Range will not be an issue.

Who needs Silhouette 2? Get the R-444 Glider and be a Sil 1 blaster that is just barely bigger than a person!

2 hours ago, RickAllison said:

Who needs Silhouette 2? Get the R-444 Glider and be a Sil 1 blaster that is just barely bigger than a person!

You need to be Silhouette 2+ to mount any of the planetary scale weapons we've seen, including the Auto-Blaster.

That is the thing, you don't have to mount it to the glider! The glider comes with its light blaster Cannon.