We have a problem in the local league. Others have mentioned it here, too, I think. The player that moves from their deployment zone first, is usually the one to lose. These sit-and-wait predators, as I like to call them, have deployed in an advantageous arrangement, huddled together, making it difficult for all my units to converge on his/her forces. Ranged attacks weaken us on the way in, while I struggle to make use of my own ranged attacks because their action has to be spent on movement.

I know others have not had trouble with this, and I also know this isn't a game design flaw, but a tactical consideration. So let's discuss. When your opponent is holed up in their deployment zone, how do you crack that shell?

After last night's game, I think it has a lot to do with turn order and initiative values. If you move into range of enemies with ranged attacks, make sure you do so on an initiative value after their attack. Fortunately, these late-initiative moves are also faster, so you cover more ground, and increase the likelihood of making contact before receiving a volley of arrows, throwing knives, enchanted fire, or evil magic. Turn order is important because you want to move first on the charge the next round. If your Reanimates have closed with opposing Reanimates, you have identical Initiative values. If you can reach them with a 3-charge (which is -1 because skeleton reasons), then they can reach you, too. So this means you don't want to advance into range until your opponent is first player, so you get the first opportunity to charge on the next round.

Overall, it's not that complex, but I'm just now formulating that tactic. There is an awful lot to remember and learn, and it's coming little by little. So do you agree with my assessment? Is there more to it? I'd like to have a good discussion about this, and I fully acknowledge that once we figure it out, anybody's opponent can mess with our heads by not doing what we expect.

P.S. The worst thing in this game is when both units think the other is going to charge them, and they both reveal melee attacks, and nothing happens. Equally bad/boring is when everybody sits on their starting line Rallying for 2 rounds. I'd like to pick up the pace and get to the action a little quicker, which is why I posed this question. Thanks again.

36 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

P.S. The worst thing in this game is when both units think the other is going to charge them, and they both reveal melee attacks, and nothing happens.

Hmm. I haven't seen this happen yet. If both players know the charging distance necessary to charge and you know what initiative they move on, it should just be a matter of who has the turn dial that turn and gets to go first in case of a tie. However I have had instances where I thought I was going to receive an early charge from Raven Tabards so I dialed up an attack only to have them rally or reform.

I kinda know where you're coming from with the sitting back and waiting tactic though. I primarily see it with Daqan players with Hawthorne where they like to sit back for a turn or two and build up inspirations tokens. Waiqar players have been known to do the same when they have upgrades that need to be readied later on (Tempered Steel, Fortuna's Dice, etc). It can be a crap shoot sometimes. In my last game against Daqan, my opponent had Hawthorne and I thought for sure that he was going to sit back for at least a turn and buff up. Instead he came at me fast and hard with his cavalry and Rune Golems and totally caught me off guard. Perhaps cavalry is the answer? Come at them with a straight 4 march with a +1 defense on the modifier and you can probably avoid a lot of missile fire. Waiqar will get their cavalry soon enough but until then they can do something similar with Carrion Lancers.

Much of what you say is quite common in block infantry games. Learning the fine art of getting the charge off is a major step towards winning more often.

But experience aside ways to mitigate this is to win the bidding war for first player and then pick objectives which force movement. In a game where getting victory points through movement will quickly force a player who castles up to rethink their tactics.

Secondarily, you mention you are playing Waiqar, as the cavalry has yet to drop there's a major tool missing from your army construction. Once you have a unit or two of very fast moving units you'll find you can get beneath their guns so to speak. With a move 6 unit (4+2) some careful precharge movement and use of the range ruler the archers you mentioned wont be so effective. These fast moving units also allow you to isolate sections for the opponent's army. Otherwise known as blitzkrieg .

Unless the scenario objective calls for otherwise, I tend to bank inspiration as Daqan against Waiqar because I know I'm going to get hit a few times with Combat Ingenuity blight. Otherwise, Oathsworn can 4+2 their way right into archers from outside their firing range. Sure you don't get the charge off, but you're going to murder them on the next round.

While they are in melee you can march your spearstar and such up.

Playing AS Waiqar I start necromancing in trays and that tends to make people feel like they are on a shot clock and need to run at me and my archers.

If you are playing with Hawthorne. Take a 3x2 block of calvary and do a 4 move with a 2 move. Engage the enemy then have a spearman block do an 4 move at int 8 and use dispatch runner.

8 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

If you are playing with Hawthorne. Take a 3x2 block of calvary and do a 4 move with a 2 move. Engage the enemy then have a spearman block do an 4 move at int 8 and use dispatch runner.

Oh that's just nasty, love it.

As a Daqan player, I tend to ram my cavalry down people's throat, the earlier the better.

7 hours ago, Darthain said:

Oh that's just nasty, love it.

As a Daqan player, I tend to ram my cavalry down people's throat, the earlier the better.

if you use a 6 tray block of spearmen you rally at int 2 with the initiative banner and hit them again.

There are some great strategies posted here, but I'll also add in - blocking. Position units and terrain during your progression downfield, so that you choose who on your team may absorb the damage from the turtling opponent. If the opponent is sitting back and playing defensive, than you get to choose the offense and that puts a lot of control in your hands.

Use the turtle's defensive positioning to your advantage. If they're all tightly boxed up, use their lack of movement to stop their charges. Obviously come at flanks, but position so that it's harder for the turtle to plan their charges.

And there are still a number of units left for armies to receive. This game is no where near complete, so while Waiqar has to wait for their cavalry option, once it drops, they'll have a lot more answers for turtles.

A lot of people have mentioned waiting for Waiqar cavalry, and I think it's a good solution, but it's still limited. Even when they're released, you won't necessarily be able to fit them in every list, so Death Knights won't always be the answer to the problem.

1 hour ago, Budgernaut said:

A lot of people have mentioned waiting for Waiqar cavalry, and I think it's a good solution, but it's still limited. Even when they're released, you won't necessarily be able to fit them in every list, so Death Knights won't always be the answer to the problem.

In my wargaming experience, cavalry is exactly what's needed for getting on the flanks and walking the board. Between Blighting with range and flanking with cavalry, Waiqar will have some solid answers to turtles. Otherwise, the only other alternative with turtles is long range artillery, which we will likely not see in RW.

I'd also add that the turtle strategy will falter when Latari and Uthuk drop, as well. Latari will be able to put solid range pressure on turtles and Uthuk will have alot of power when they hit. The next two armies are really going to force the turtle strategy out of rotation.

2 hours ago, Hawkman2000 said:

In my wargaming experience, cavalry is exactly what's needed for getting on the flanks and walking the board. Between Blighting with range and flanking with cavalry, Waiqar will have some solid answers to turtles. Otherwise, the only other alternative with turtles is long range artillery, which we will likely not see in RW.

I'd also add that the turtle strategy will falter when Latari and Uthuk drop, as well. Latari will be able to put solid range pressure on turtles and Uthuk will have alot of power when they hit. The next two armies are really going to force the turtle strategy out of rotation.

My last game I set up archers in overwatch position, so the turtling foe was penned in their deployment zone. I then moved the bulk of my troops around to one side of their block, so I could have all my melee fighters hitting one side of their formation. The terrain that was initially helping conceal them then ended up blocking them as they tried to move the half of their army that wasn't going to be able to support the other half as it was attacked. In order to move around to join the fight, they were going to have to swing into range of my archers.

Turtles give up the initiative and allow you to dictate the when and where of engagement, which is very useful. I do wonder however if people feel spending the first two turns or so banking inspiration and such it "turtling", I find it pretty necessary so that one round of blight or something just doesn't put you on a back foot for the entire game.

When Knights come out, just measure the range distance of the attacker, move in that way you are outside the range, take your time, as many turns as needed to get the good positioning, then move on 7 a distance of 3 + 2, next turn you will be able to charge, with a 2 distance at iniciative 3 which is before ranged attacks. Ranged units don't hit hard on melee.

Wind rune could be also very good move up to 3, relocate up to 3 depending of the runes...

15 hours ago, Hijodecain said:

When Knights come out, just measure the range distance of the attacker, move in that way you are outside the range, take your time, as many turns as needed to get the good positioning, then move on 7 a distance of 3 + 2, next turn you will be able to charge, with a 2 distance at iniciative 3 which is before ranged attacks. Ranged units don't hit hard on melee.

Wind rune could be also very good move up to 3, relocate up to 3 depending of the runes...

Don't forget Raven Tabards.

On 11/08/2017 at 6:12 AM, Budgernaut said:

A lot of people have mentioned waiting for Waiqar cavalry, and I think it's a good solution, but it's still limited. Even when they're released, you won't necessarily be able to fit them in every list, so Death Knights won't always be the answer to the problem.

There are certainly different build pathways for each army. But it's always a solid bet to find a way to get in at least one fast moving unit.

Something like this wont break the bank and is a genuine threat, very easy to get 2 or more mortal strikes in rounds after the charge:

Death Knights x2 [24]
--Artifact: Reaping Blade [4]
--Training: Rank Discipline [4]
----------Total Unit Cost: 32

3 hours ago, Thornoo1 said:

There are certainly different build pathways for each army. But it's always a solid bet to find a way to get in at least one fast moving unit.

Something like this wont break the bank and is a genuine threat, very easy to get 2 or more mortal strikes in rounds after the charge:

Death Knights x2 [24]
--Artifact: Reaping Blade [4]
--Training: Rank Discipline [4]
----------Total Unit Cost: 32

Shame you can only bring one of those.

Always play a unit that can shoot and fight.

Shooting prevents turlteing

so does extreme movement

1. Never play without using a scenario.

2. run into them from outside of range 4

3. have 2 units of shooting

4.move around and trade a 15 point unit for a 20 point unit and move away yourself.

5. wind rune.

6. uncontrolled geomancer

7. dispatch runner

you cant turtle against my 2 main lists

3 2x2 leonx raven tabard

3 2x1 scions raven tabard

or

2 3x1 crossbowmen

single golems and small cav with wind rune

Ardus

Reanimates 2x3
--Doomcaller
--Support Carrion Lancer
--Simultaneous Orders

X2

Some worms, some archers

Last list that tried to turtle against this failed to inflict even a single casualty before being tabled.