I'm reading the character creation section, and just noticed this:

"If a character does not begin play with the required characteristic rating, he does not begin with that basic action card. However, if he later raises his characteristics to meet these requirements, he can choose to acquire these actions later in his career." (pg. 31)

Does that mean you have to buy them with advances once you qualify, or is it that you get them for free when you do?

You get Basic Actions for free at the point when you meet the prerequisits.

That's not how I would read it. I would interpret "acquire" as buy with advances, not get for free. Otherwise I don't think the rules would have said "can choose to acquire", why would one not choose to acquire something that is free?

Not that it matters much, GM call I guess.

one indicator might be the "curry favor" action. it is listed as basic, if i remember correctly, but unless you start as an alcolyte priest, you need to buy it with advancements.

Ok. Everyone can play it as he wants.
if it is a Basic Action which everyone is able to do, but he he is not tough enough (To3+, as in Basic Block), why should he also learn it.
This is inlogical and a disadvantage to a starting character who has TO 3 or 4. But it's your game do as you want. for me and for my group it makes no sense

evilben said:

Curry Favor is a "magical" skill or action so you can't compare it , sorry, I do not compare it to a Basic Skill like Dodge which every Lieschen Müller can perform if she has AG3+.

But... Your game... Your rules...

Everyone is obviously welcome to make their own choice but the FAQ specifically uses the term "Acquire" to mean spend advances (or creation points) to obtain the card or effect.

The wording "he can choose to acquire these actions later in his career" implies, rather clearly, that they must spend xp on learning basic skills beyond character creation if they do not qualify at the start. Also the definition of Acquire in the FAQ is pretty clear.

From a thematic point of view Basic Actions are ones that your character has learned at the start of the game, they are freebies based on stats. They are part of the reason why buying up stats at chargen cost what they do. Later on simply increasing a stat doesn't automatically mean the character gains the knowledge of that basic action as well.

Ultimately it's your game so you are free to do what you like. IMO, even outside of my interpretation of the text I see it as part of a balancing factor. It's a good way to separate characters that put effort into highly stated characters and skill/talent based characters from the start.

Lautrer said:

that's my point of view too.

I guess I feel that characteristic upgrades are already expensive enough that investing in one should grant you the starting basic action cards your new value allows for. If a PC raises their Toughness to 3, then give them the Block action card. In this case I guess they still need a shield to use it. Interestingly, the Troll Slayer in A Day Late... does not have the Block Action Card. Their toughness is certainly high enough, but with no shield they can't use it. I know they eschew arnour, but they can use a shield right? So if the PC Troll Slayer picks up a dropped shield on the battlefield, does he get the Block card in mid battle?

As an aside, I tried to test/practice character creation by using the rules to recreate the sample characters in A Day Late... I have found that I cannot, however, create the Roadwarden as I cannot give them enough starting wealth to buy all the equipment listed. I have not gotten to the Envoy or Apprentice Wizard yet.

ludyee said:

The trollslayer should, RAW, have the block card. However, no Trollslayer would in character use it - shields are protecting yourself, and they have forsworn that right. So they could use it, but as a GM I would demand a good roleplaying reason to do so.

I'm pretty sure the Day Late... characters have a bit of XP spent on them

I have no issues with slayers dodging or parrying. Slayers do not use armor or shields, but I don't see them as daft. If a big troll club is heading towards their head, they aren't going to look at it and ponder wether their code of honour dictates that they shouldn't get out of the way. They will dodge or parry and carve their way to the trolls bowels with their axe.

Block however is another issue. If a slayer picks it up a shield it can only with the intention of smashing someones skull with it. A slayer will never have the block action, no matter what. In my game at least.

But other than that... if a character meets the requirements for the basic actions, including the improved defences he gets the card for free. Just like the regular defence cards are automatically replaced by improved ones.

Someone who starts as a wizard gets all the basic spell cards and channeling for free during chargen. Someone who becomes one in game doesn't and has to buy them separately. That's the advantage of starting the game as a wizard. Someone who has an Agility 3+ gets Dodge during chargen, someone who starts with Agility 2 doesn't and has to buy it separately if they raise their Agility to 3 in game. Again, that's the advantage of starting the game with Agility 3+, a bonus basic action.

A Troll Slayer with T 3+ will start with Block; however, since one of the requirements to use Block is to have a shield equipped, if the Troll Slayer never picks up a shield, he can never use Block. Since a proper Troll Slayer is going to have two hand weapons or a great weapon, he wouldn't have a hand free for a shield anyway.

I think the reason the TS didn't get Block in the demo was to keep from confusing new players with cards they wouldn't be using.

Sorry, wasn't sure of the Troll Slayer's thematic limitations. This is my very first experience with Warhammer.

I still don't mind a character getting Block as soon as they raise thier Toughness to 3. I would feel the same for Dodge and Parry. On Page 31 of the rulebook, they are the only basic actions listed as being available for free to all [during character creation]. I would not grant any other basic Action Cards for free during character advancement unless specified elsewhere.

That being said, I am in no way inferring that a character who is required to buy such basic actions after they have the requisite characteristic value, is wrong. Others obviously read the spirit of the rules to in fact indicate this. I just feel semi-ambivalent and could go either way. It seems cool to me the GM, to give the action card to the player as they unlock the ability to use it once they raise the requisite characteristic. I could instead say, "No way, you have to buy the advancment to get the action card." I just feel it's fine to give it to them so why not.

It is clean-cut in the rules, that those basic action cards could be bought later from advances. If it would be automatic, then why do not give it to the player when he starts (even without the prerequisite), just can't use it until does not reach the prerequiste?

Of course everyone can modify his/her own rules in his/her own game, but the official rules say that those could be bought, not automatically gain ("if he later raises his characteristics to meet these requirements, he can choose to acquire these actions later in his career." It is slightly different from he automatically gains). Do not misinterpret them!

- Nag

Nagash said:

It appears to be more than slightly different. I admit I did not scan the rules for that exact ruling, I was just going off of my feeling on whether the basic action card could be granted or not and if that imbalances things. Thank you for pointing out the sentence in the official rules that applies . Sorry for my misinterpretation.

Well, at the age of 15 month I did not have the prerequisits for the Basic Action "Walk straight ahead", Agility 1, you know.
Now at the age of 36 I have Agility... ähm say 3 but did not spend any advancement for this Basic Action. Now I know why it always takes so long for me to walk home... and all the bruises on my legs.

Lautrer said:

That's such a bad analogue that I don't even know where to begin

Well Lautrer you are getting close to see the point