This is just an idea I am thinking about but, I thought I'd ask what you guys think: what if as an additional option at character creation instead of +5/+10 XP, credits or morality modifiers there was an option to start with Force Rating 2? Would that be too powerful?

1 minute ago, JinFaram said:

This is just an idea I am thinking about but, I thought I'd ask what you guys think: what if as an additional option at character creation instead of +5/+10 XP, credits or morality modifiers there was an option to start with Force Rating 2? Would that be too powerful?

Definitely. Force Ratings are a huge deal, and each provides a huge boost to a Force user's ability to power their Force powers.

I thought so.

40 minutes ago, JinFaram said:

I thought so.

I recently made a character that started at FR2. I took the Seer spec and spent most of my starting XP to get FR2 for him. Sort of crippled his skills and stats, but the way I have him planned out, he'll quickly catch up to and, in many regards, surpass the other players.

Eh, if I was GM, I would probably allow it, but with a few restrictions.

1. It's not free, they will be required to progress at a reasonable pace towards some +1 Force Rating talent in one of their trees. And when they buy it, they just simply pay for the FR 2 they already had. In a way, you could almost consider this to fall under the "Learn As You Go" rules, which DOES allow you to pick a talent in a spec tree that you don't have yet, and operate as if you did. +1 Force Rating IS a talent in a spec tree. So, yeah this really isn't that out of the realm of possible. BUUUUUUUUT

2. I would slap a LOT of penalties on it's use, and make sure the player is aware that by getting such an upgrade at creation, they're playing with fire.
They will have to make a Fear check with every roll (not always based on Fear specifically, but an Emotion check if you will). If they fail the check, they will gain Conflict on the Force usage, regardless if they use Light or Dark pips. To reflect them being a very powerful novice, but being so makes them a very tempting target for the Dark Side. If they do use Dark Side pips for their fuel, they will gain +1 Conflict on top of however many they earn from the number of pips used.

3. I would stick them with a 20 point (maybe higher if I feel like it) "Hunted/Bounty/Criminal" whatever Obligation. Some agency with ties to the Dark Side (Empire if doing New Hope, but really any organization would do, based on setting), has had visions (Using Foresee), of the PC's ability, and wants them for their own agenda. They have sent out Inquisitors to hunt them to the ends of the galaxy. And I would point out that they won't just show up when the Obligation is triggered. If I, as the GM, simply feel like them showing up because if fits, they will. PLUS, if the Obligation is triggered, they would show up as well.

Stuff like that, I feel, would be part of the package, if it were my table.

But yeah, honestly, with the flexibility of the Learn As You Go optional rule, this isn't game breaking. Boosts to Force Rating are a talent in a tree, and this rule lets you access talents in trees before you've paid for them. There isn't anything fundamentally different with the + FR talent, and say Hawk Bat Swoop, for example.

1 hour ago, JinFaram said:

This is just an idea I am thinking about but, I thought I'd ask what you guys think: what if as an additional option at character creation instead of +5/+10 XP, credits or morality modifiers there was an option to start with Force Rating 2? Would that be too powerful?

Yeah, starting out of the gate at Force Rating 2 is a substantial boost to the character's power.

If you're familiar with any of the d20 systems, it's the equivalent to handing the PC a +5 bonus to checks made with their primary skill at 1st level without having to expend any notable resources.

Getting just that Force Rating 1 works out to being roughly equivalent to 20XP, based upon F&D careers losing out on two career skills from their starting career and only beginning play with 5 trained skill ranks instead of the 6 that AoR and EotE characters get.

Now, that being said, if you're cool with players having the option for that kind of boost to their character's power (said option is extremely attractive for PCs that start out with one of the Lightsaber Form specs, most of which don't offer a chance to boost Force Rating), then go for it. Just bear in mind that the trade off of not getting +10XP, +2500 credits, or +5XP/+1000 credits is pretty minor in comparison to the PC not being nearly as reliant upon dark side pips to fuel their Force powers and having better odds of pulling off more impressive feats of Force usage as they could very well have three or four Force points to use. It also means that PCs can afford to commit a Force die to effects (like the very popular Sense for it's defensive Control upgrade) and still have a Force die free to use for minor/lesser effects that maybe only need one or two Force points to operate.

On 09/08/2017 at 5:40 AM, KungFuFerret said:

Eh, if I was GM, I would probably allow it, but with a few restrictions.

I'm in the same frame of mind. I would just make them spend XP to upgrade their FR when they buy attributes. BUT...they cost (20FR + 10)XP to upgrade, and they can only purchase them with starting XP (not knight level bonus XP). These would be purchased in the same way as you buy non-career specialisations, where each spec after the first increases in cost.

For example, if you were a Guardian Soresu Defender, you already start with FR1 (if this is your first career), so you could purchase FR2 for 50XP as a starting character. If you wanted to start with FR3, it would cost you 120XP (50XP for FR2 + 70XP for FR3), etc. The trade off however is that you lose out on spending those points in attribute upgrades. If you were a non-force sensitive character, it would cost you 30XP, which statistically speaking, would be more expensive than just buying one of the cheaper Force Sensitive specs.

While some of you will jump up and down over this, if you do the maths it works out similar in XP, as the player will need to chase dedications to make up for their deficient stats. However those specialisations don't generally have Force talents, so you will need to supplement your FR with Force skills, which again is an XP tax before you get good.

It's not perfect, but it is your table and you can try things out at your discretion.

Eh, personally, I don't like the idea of charging them more XP. The more I think about this thread, the more I think simply implementing Learn As You Go works just fine. Slap several penalties on the usage of their Force powers, as suggested for Learn As You Go, and be done with it. I'm a firm believer in KISS, and I personally don't feel like tracking that much stuff at the table. They pick it as their LAYG talent, have to spend XP towards actually unlocking it as the story progresses, and they suffer things like additional strain cost, Conflict, increased difficulty, etc. No real need for anything else.

In a semi-related note, the campaign of the current SW game I'm in put three of the PCs through an event (namely, being caught in the epicenter of a corrupted Force vergence that went kaplooey) that awakened or enhanced their existing Force sensitivity. For two of the PCs that didn't already have a Force Rating, they got Force Rating 1 for free. For the PC (mine) that did have Force Rating 1, I got it boosted to Force Rating 2, and while I've not yet invested all that heavily into Move, having that extra Force die to roll means I can indeed commit a die to Sense for the defense upgrade and still have a die free to do other stuff (like use Move at short range to hurl Silhouette 1 targets ala Force push/thrust).

The trade-off was that similar to how a Mephite crystal works, if any Force users activates a power that lets them detect things in their vicinity (such as Sense or Farsight from Savage Spirits), our characters are immediately dinged with zero chance to conceal our presence, and that the range at which we can be pinged is one greater than the power's default. So for Sense with just the basic power, we'd be pinged at medium range. For Seek, the Force user would need one less Force point to activate the "sense location of person your familiar with," pretty much making it darn near automatic for something like an Inquisitor to sniff us out.

Posting this as it's a possible idea as a counter-balance that doesn't involve additional XP costs or other in-depth methods. Granted, it's only useful if you as the GM are going to have Inquisitors (or similar type of villains) show up in the campaign, but it's a thought.

If we'd be playing high powered campaign, I might allow it without any restrictions. +5/+10 XP cost would definitely be too low in normal starting level game.

For me it's a definite no with the skills in the core rulebook making that seem absurd from the drop.

If a warrior wants fr2 it still costs a fair amount of xp to reach it in aggressor despite it being a direct line.

My Gm did this for players in a Swtor era game but I personally would prefer to start them with enough in a tree that they had it. Rather than just give them a free dice.

I will echo what others have said and say that for the cost FR 2 is too powerful of a trade off. To show how so let me relate to you the tale of a PC I once GMed who was a Mystic Seer at charter creation the player bee lined straight for that trees FR +1 Talent, picking up other useful talents along the way ex. Uncanny Reactions, Sens Danger. Then he proceeded to buy the Bind power for his Force Power, now on paper this look really powerful but his willpower was a 2 and his discipline had either 1 rank or zero in it. This led to him slowly choking out a pirate or low level Imperial on Korriban over several rounds( he only succeed because of the dark side vergence in the Valley of the Dark Lords). The party than had to figure out a way to grab the keys to their cage of the guard without the force as he didn't have move to get the body closer to them. All in all he was a fun character to GM but he was far from being the most powerful party member due to having put all his XP in Talents and Force Powers.

TLDR/ Moral of the Story: Force Rating means nothing without the willpower or discipline to manifest the power.

21 hours ago, Lotr_Nerd said:

I will echo what others have said and say that for the cost FR 2 is too powerful of a trade off. To show how so let me relate to you the tale of a PC I once GMed who was a Mystic Seer at charter creation the player bee lined straight for that trees FR +1 Talent, picking up other useful talents along the way ex. Uncanny Reactions, Sens Danger. Then he proceeded to buy the Bind power for his Force Power, now on paper this look really powerful but his willpower was a 2 and his discipline had either 1 rank or zero in it. This led to him slowly choking out a pirate or low level Imperial on Korriban over several rounds( he only succeed because of the dark side vergence in the Valley of the Dark Lords). The party than had to figure out a way to grab the keys to their cage of the guard without the force as he didn't have move to get the body closer to them. All in all he was a fun character to GM but he was far from being the most powerful party member due to having put all his XP in Talents and Force Powers.

TLDR/ Moral of the Story: Force Rating means nothing without the willpower or discipline to manifest the power.

Well if Force Rating means nothing, then how is giving them FR 2 too powerful of a trade off?

Is it somehow too powerful if they spend all their XP at start of play to get FR 2, or spend all subsequent XP from adventures to buy it ASAP?

At what point in the character progression does having FR 2 really early stop being "Too OP for a newb" and "is perfectly fine"? I mean, you can get to FR 2 pretty darn quickly if you are being very dedicated in your expenditures. I haven't done the math myself, but I think I've seen people say that you can get it with as little as 80 or so XP, following the fastest progression route? So, if I have a PC that does exactly that, spends all their XP to unlock FR 2 in the fastest route possible, excluding buying anything extraneous, how are they somehow less OP at this point, than the guy who asked for it at character creation? They still have little to no variation in their skills (because they didn't increase any of them). At most they've got a few bonuses to rolls from the talents along the way to FR 2, but given the two classes that most quickly give that FR 2 are fairly non-combat, they likely only have boosts to things like Knowledge checks. I know because I was playing a Sage in a pbp, and getting FR 2 was a high priority for him. The stuff I bought to actually get there, were hardly OP powers in themselves, and only augmented a separate ability, one that isn't any more powerful than at chargen, because I haven't spent any XP on it to improve it.

And again, if they are spending all their XP to unlock FR 2, they haven't been buying Force powers, or skills, etc. So they really aren't that broken or OP in the long run. And if you slap them with penalties to use that FR 2 (as I suggested above, per the suggestions of the Learn As You Go optional rule), it's hardly a free power ride for them. There will be direct, immediate, tangible risks to using their strong Force connection.

So yeah, I still don't really see the issue with this. I don't see how it's any more OP than allowing someone to get any other Talent through the Learn As You Go option, that can give them some crazy powerful trick. I mean, any of the Supreme versions of the various talents could just as easily be picked using the LAYG rules, and those things are stupidly powerful. But somehow that's ok and FR 2 isn't?

*shrugs* I don't see the difference. If they don't have any developed Force powers, they won't be able to accomplish much at all with FR 2, as you pointed out. If you require they spend their XP to buy towards actually unlocking their FR 2 the normal way, all it's doing is letting them have access to the dice pool sooner than they would. You are the GM, you can easily leash this to make it manageable.

The problem is an issue of balance. Yes, a high Force rating is pretty useless without the talents or powers to make use of it. However , The point of how Force ratings are set up is that the Force rating grows as the character learns to use Force talents and Force powers, not independently of them.

KungFuFerret,

As you note in your example, that PC paid 80 of their starting XP just to get to Force Rating 2. Depending on the spec, that may well leave them with talents that are only occasionally useful, or possibly not all that useful at all. They've also "paid" by not increasing their characteristics any, which is going to bite that PC in the hindquarters quite often, as they may not even have enough XP to bump any of their 2's to a 3. And that's 80 XP that not only wasn't spent on characteristics, but also wasn't spent on skills or Force powers.

The problem of handing out Force Rating 2 for a song (essentially what the OP suggested) is that the character still has all that starting XP for other things, such as raising characteristics or more importantly buying Force powers, which will be a lot more effective at FR2 than they would be for a PC with FR1.

Move is an easy go-to for that sort of leap in effectiveness, as the FR2 character is invariably going to have an easier time activating not only the base power but one or more upgrades, where the FR1 character will be lucky to get the basic power and an upgrade. Sense is another instance, as the FR2 character can purchase both of the left-hand side control upgrades, giving them the option to upgrade both defense and offense twice, while the FR1 character that's purchased the same upgrades has to choose between defense or offense.

Starting out at FR2 with most of a character's starting XP opens up powers that generally aren't available, such as Bind and Battle Meditation, both of which can be pretty effective with the right combination of upgrades; Bind can let you pretty effectively hamper a foe by inflicting strain if they do try to act as well as adding setback dice to that check anyway.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

snip

Yeah I know it allows them to put that XP somewhere else, I'm just saying I don't see how it's any more broken, than using the Learn As You Go rules, and allowing a starting PC access to say, Supreme Scathing Tirade for example. There's nothing prohibiting it in the rules, since the way you get FR 2+ is by buying a talent in a tree, which does fall under the purview of LAYG. The whole point of the LAYG optional rule, is to allow characters to be significantly more powerful earlier than they normally would be able to . They are allowed access to one thing, and as an agreement, they have to spend at least some of their earned XP from play to actually buy towards that thing they gained access to, as they go along. FR 2 is no different. If the GM is enforcing this rule (and they should, otherwise why use the rule anyway), then the PC is paying for it as normal, they just got the purchase. It's basically a Force Layaway, but you actually get the couch first. Or, you put it on a credit card, for another analogy. Get now, pay later. That's the heart of Learn As You Go.

If that same example PC took their XP, that they would've used to buy into FR 2, and put it into say, their characteristics, great, they still don't have a very powerful Force power, because that takes XP too. So if they buy into say, Move, then they are sacrificing their Characteristics, to have a strong Force power at the start. That's a significant trade. If they don't do that, and do the reasonable thing most players do, and spend that XP on Characteristics, then they don't really have much they can actually do with that FR 2. Which again, limits the utility of the early purchase. So it's not like they suddenly have a fully upgrade Move, with massive Characteristics, as well as the FR 2, right out of the gate.

And yes, it does give them access to things like Battle Meditation at the start, which is actually a good example. I had a concept for a Sage who was all about BM. I wanted to work it into his background, coupled with Foresee, and sort of play off the idea of him being able to tweak the threads of Fate. Foresee letting him see possible outcomes, BM letting him more directly influence those outcomes, by reaching out to his allies and influencing their actions. But I couldn't work it into the concept, because I couldn't afford FR 2, and that power, and have decent stats. If I had been able to LAYG it, I still wouldn't have had a powerful ability. I would've had the basic power, maybe an upgrade or two, and that's it.

And I would've been required to actually pay into the talent tree, to unlock FR 2 the old fashion way. Which means I wouldn't be spending that XP on upgrading BM very quickly. Which again, limits the utility of the early FR 2.

I don't know, I guess I'm just assuming that the players are going to be reasonable people, and everyone else is assuming they will be Rules Lawyering, Munchkin, Murderhobos, just slavering to have an easy way to kill everyone they see. I don't play at that kind of table, never have. My friends are reasonable, mature adults, who you can actually speak to rationally about how the game will play out. And come to a consensus about how both GM and players will operate, so that everyone has fun. I guess this is the rarity for a lot of you? *shrugs*

Why not have the character start with enough xp to havd bought Force Rating talent in their chosen specialization but then penalise them with xp penalties until other plahers catch up, or you could even offer an alternative to knight level rules where the players are ejther given, or given a choice of +75 or 100 bonus xp, but not starting Xp (enough in most force specs to get force rating) , or +40/50 xp and 3000 bonus credits or 7500 credits to spend on gear.

Means that a sniper could start the game with a tricked out rifle. Gunslinger with tricked out pistol and some reasonable xp, a lightsaber spec could start with a basic lightsaber,or they could have FR 2 / or a reasonable amount of a single force power. The only restriction would be that all the cash /xp go toward making them an expert at something (eg getting rank 3 , or maybe 4 in skill, or getting a key "signature talent" , or anything that furthers one specific goal of a character).

The one thing I dont like about it, is that the characters start out part of the way of their journey, with a single goal reached,but since its less tha. knignt level it shouldnt harm experienced players.