Because you can have fun at other formats than repetitive 100/6 with only OP stuff. Because its Star Wars:

12 minutes ago, TheColossal said:

We've lost several people from our local group because they "don't like the direction this game is going". The feeling seems to be shared across the Xwing community.

I've only been around for a few waves so can someone tell me what the 'right direction' is? Or even describe the 'peak' of Xwing, before we went down the wrong path?

We have gained tons here. I don't think we have reached the peak yet. Don't listen to the doom and gloom. It's happened before.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, we have burnout, NPE, meta of doom, and published pain as our monthly blog selection.

There have got to be addiction recovery and post-partum depression websites that are more chipper than this. . .anyone want to explain to me why we should even be playing this game anymore??

Don't let anyone else's enjoyment or lack thereof influence you - if you're happy with the game, play it and don't let others drag you down! Something else draws each of us to the game, and just because the game changes and some don't like it as much anymore doesn't mean you do, or that the game might not be better off for those changes.

And, as community dissatisfaction builds, we'll eventually get community versions like what @MajorJuggler and co is working on, which is awesome!

6 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Because you can have fun at other formats than repetitive 100/6 with only OP stuff. Because its Star Wars:

Never not had fun in X-Wing. But I mostly play with my friends, so never see all the dumb stuff. X-wing still fun game if you have people to play with that won't bring Metawing lists! However, some ships still suck even in Casual <.< RIP Punisher.

13 minutes ago, TheColossal said:

We've lost several people from our local group because they "don't like the direction this game is going". The feeling seems to be shared across the Xwing community.

I've only been around for a few waves so can someone tell me what the 'right direction' is? Or even describe the 'peak' of Xwing, before we went down the wrong path?

I've been in from the beginning. I've never won a large tournament, but I'm good enough to have won quite a few local game night tournaments and release events. I don't think any one person will agree on a high point for the game. I think the game has a great enough diversity of ships to cater to different play styles. The problem is that some play styles get less effective in certain eras of the game based on the evolving meta game. As jousters started to take a back seat, people who like jousters got disgruntled. Now, everybody pretty much has an "X-wing heyday" in their mind that they wish they could get back to. (I think @Franch described this really well a couple posts above).

Now, I do think that the 'right' path was hit on a few times upthread: maneuvering matters. This is why some people hate turrets. Other people realize that their turrets are not unstoppable if they maneuver poorly. This is why original decloaking rules were completely broken and not fun. It's also why so many people complain about bombs. The thing is, maneuvering matters now just as much as ever with the exclusion of a few pilots and pieces of tech. Tune those, and we're golden. I don't think we're far off, and I think the majority of games we play are actually tons of fun, but people that are competitive by nature are driven by the losses to find a way to beat their nemesis squads/combos. And when they can't see a way to do that, we get doom and gloom depression. I'm a staunch believer in "play more, forum less", even though I do forum a bit

1 hour ago, sozin said:

Don't despair! Showing our cards a little, but: @MajorJuggler, myself, the S&V team, and other prominent community members are brainstorming now a Community Edition that should keep those little plastic spaceships in play for the next 20 years. There is still a lot of pre-planning to be done, but when we're ready to open things up it'll be with the following goals:

• ensure that these little plastic spaceships retain both casual and competitive fun value beyond FFG's license with Disney
• incorporate the community's opinion and perspective on what the game should be in a data-driven, participatory fashion
• have first class software support (builders, information browsers, community forums, etc)

The Community X-Wing idea is certainly bittersweet for me: I think it is great that players are engaged and enthusiastic enough to want to make the game better, and sad that official game has gone so far afield that players feel they have no other choice but to reinvent the game*.

*Edit: Sadly, I suspect all your work is going to be based around 100/6 play, the one aspect of XWM I have 100.6% no interest in.

50 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Epic play.

Heroes of the Aturi Cluster.

Missions/campaigns (ffg or mission control).

There's tons of fun to be had when you change the parameters away from the overly analyzed and highly tested 100/6 meta.

I'm glad all the focus is on 100/6 though -- if there was more official support for alternate formats we would inevitably have the same people who mathwing 100/6 do the same to all our other games.

I agree with all of the above except. . .if FFG designed just a few things for casual fun only, maybe the game wouldn't be so driven into the corner it is now in.

I can't help but feel that "Sport X-Wing" is killing the game.

29 minutes ago, TheColossal said:

Negative Play Experience

Or, "Boy, that wasn't fun."

47 minutes ago, Deroche said:

@Darth Meanie: Are you judging our book (podcast) by its cover? (episode title)

Did you listen? Maybe we're talking about two different podcasts.

Not even sure which is yours. Sorry, I did throw you under the bus based on the title. OTOH, I was seeing a theme. . .

48 minutes ago, MajorJuggler said:

It's not just that we can support for the game long after it's dead, we can create a significantly more balanced and diversified meta game than FFG can. Yay X-wings!

Given that I have never flown 90%+ of the Rebel faction, 50%+ of the Scum faction, and even as an Imperial player still have not tabled an Upsilon/Phantom/Aggressor, etc. etc. this game still has a lot of life left in it for me to explore.

Internet forums are the worst place to experience anything you love. And we're just waiting for news right now anyways.

9 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I agree with all of the above except. . .if FFG designed just a few things for casual fun only, maybe the game wouldn't be so driven into the corner it is now in.

I can't help but feel that "Sport X-Wing" is killing the game.

You mean those handful of pilots that nobody flies in metawing? Found in every pack...

10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I agree with all of the above except. . .if FFG designed just a few things for casual fun only, maybe the game wouldn't be so driven into the corner it is now in.

I can't help but feel that "Sport X-Wing" is killing the game.

I agree with this completely as do many others. I have never had an argument playing with friends, problems with cheating, meta drama, had to learn to git gud, or useless ships. I know there are some very vocal members who think people whine too much and x wing is savable but there is a growing crowd that are disastisfied with ffg because they do focus on the "sport" of x wing and not the game.

10 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Internet forums are the worst place to experience anything you love. And we're just waiting for news right now anyways.

I have been completely ignoring these very forums lately, save the odd rules question, and I have have been enjoying the game more than I have in a long time. I really don;t think that's a coincidence.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, we have burnout, NPE, meta of doom, and published pain as our monthly blog selection.

There have got to be addiction recovery and post-partum depression websites that are more chipper than this. . .anyone want to explain to me why we should even be playing this game anymore??

Because Monopoly sucks and drugs are too expensive

36 minutes ago, TheColossal said:

Negative Play Experience

Thanks. To be honest, I always thought NPE was because of my crappy skill with lists I couldn't make work rather than the game itself. Now that I've found my list (yay Scyks ?) I have a great time playing X-Wing, win, lose or draw.

X-Wing is still a ton of fun. Casual, epic, competitive, whatever. People just like to complain. I've never been on a truly positive online forum; some have come close, but it is the easiest way to gripe, complain, and get validation for it.

I don't agree with every move FFG has made, but I don't have to (and we all will never agree). I enjoy pushing plastic spaceships around a mat and spending time with friends, and they've supported that. Viva la X-Wing TMG.

5 minutes ago, T70 Driver said:

Thanks. To be honest, I always thought NPE was because of my crappy skill with lists I couldn't make work rather than the game itself. Now that I've found my list (yay Scyks ?) I have a great time playing X-Wing, win, lose or draw.

And you fly them well. I'm hoping that idiotic Mindlink nerf doesn't happen, precisely because it screws over perfectly good and fun lists like yours.

But it's FFG, looking at the easiest thing to do that could be mistaken for a fix, so ... enjoy your Scyk now, RG. Enjoy the **** out of 'em.

What was the peak? I don't know that we ever hit it. The most fun I've had was swarm days... but that's me. I'm crazy like that. Different folks would just point to different points but hopefully we all agree the game can be better and it deserves to be better than it currently is represented.

You obviously didn't actually listen to The Kessel Run. There's a lot of wonky stuff in the game now, but we're all still having fun so how bad can it be?

I get that you have an agenda to push, but kindly leave us out of it.

1 hour ago, Boba Rick said:

The women.

Not just the women but the men and the children too.

16 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

You obviously didn't actually listen to The Kessel Run. There's a lot of wonky stuff in the game now, but we're all still having fun so how bad can it be?

I get that you have an agenda to push, but kindly leave us out of it.

I mean, they literally all decided that X-wing is still a fun game.

1 hour ago, MajorJuggler said:

It's not just that we can support for the game long after it's dead, we can create a significantly more balanced and diversified meta game than FFG can. Yay X-wings!

In my opinion, this is a really bad idea. I've been in gaming communities long enough to know that you're likely undertaking a world of thankless work and inviting lots of headaches upon yourselves. You can't please everyone, and it's very unlikely you'll please even most people, since everyone has their own visions and ideals about this game. But lacking any official authority to speak for the community at large beyond volunteerism initiative, folks will be even less accepting and more critical of your decisions. For instance: from your community design team, how many Regional, National, Continental, and World Championships do you collectively have? It's one thing if Heaver and other well-documented performers sat down to do a remake of the game, because they would have a claim to some level of demonstrable expertise and understanding of the competitive game. But it's another thing if a team of 'theory-crafters' without a demonstrated 1.0 pedigree of performance does it.

People will still complain about whatever balancing decisions you've made or whatever metas you shape, the difference is that your team lacks any official status so people will be more inclined to critique, challenge, criticize, and crap all over your decisions. For instance, the Player Committees that attempted to keep the Star Wars CCG or the Star Wars CMG alive after both properties ceased official production. A loyal few stuck with those games, but in my experience there were still lots of criticisms of the decisions made by those self-declared leaders of the community. Bloodbowl's NAF probably has had the most success, and the NAF Board is a group of elected individuals from the organization, and even they do not fidget much at all with the core mechanics of the game (moreso with tournament structure, ranking metrics, etc.) and even they take a surprising amount of flak and resistance from the community.

Finally, any fan-made alternative is going to lack the most important thing: official support. It's hard enough to get folks to come out for events nowadays even with official FFG Swag to support it. Without official swag support, it's going to be much harder to get people out to try or invest in the format, even if the gameplay is generally more enjoyable. Fun is great, but you typically need FUN and SWAG to get people out to events in this oversaturated gaming market. The more "unofficial" support you do for the format and its events, the more you risk getting a C&D request at some point down the road for all your hardwork, as the BB community is all too familiar with (though, granted FFG is not GW, but still).

Even if your community model catches on to some significant degree, you'll have split an already waning playerbase. You'll have those folks who want to do the Official Format, and those who want to do the Community Format, and all you've really accomplished is potentially halving the playerbase at a time when many regions and local communities are seeing decreasing event attendance.

I think anything like this only has a remote chance of being successful if it's democratized: that is, you need some sort of "organization" that interested players can join (manged through an organization website, eg The XWing Community Iniatitive or something), and the members of that organization can then elect Design Committee members from their ranks through elections. This at least gives some airs of official authority, and the most successful Community-Run gaming efforts tend to follow this approach, in my experience. It could also then poll members to identify what the overall opinion is on various game elements, themes, mechanics, and the like. Then it can always be said that "these design decisions were made based on community preferences, and not on the whims of a few individuals whose subjective preferences won't necessarily match that of the greater community's.

8 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

I mean, they literally all decided that X-wing is still a fun game.

Wait, someone attacked someone else with out actually doing some research!?! on the internet!?!? surely not!

1 hour ago, MajorJuggler said:

It's not just that we can support for the game long after it's dead, we can create a significantly more balanced and diversified meta game than FFG can. Yay X-wings!

That's kinda bragg-ish

While I do want you guys to succeed, realism kicks in. Even if your rules are much better, few people are actually going to play them, you can't provide new quality components (printed out cards and tokens aren't awful, but it's not nearly as nice as FFG quality), you have no marketing budget, no shiny thingies for tournaments (outside local area, at least), language barriers and many more issues that can't really be solved without acquiring a SW license and throwing money at it.

Not saying it's impossible for you guys to succed, just very unlikely. Good rules are not what sells games (just look at GW lol)

@OP

No, because:

1. FFG fixes their games

2. the game is hella fun even in it's current state

3. you don't have to play 100/6

4. still by far the best miniature game out there

5. to this day the only serious miniature game that offers a) quick games b) well-painted minis c) simple base rules d) large community e) star wars

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

I totally agree, it's definitely time for the podcasters to quit.

edit: @Darth Meanie , take a telegram. "To: Scum & Villany Podcast. Congrats stop. Have found only podcast in world less interesting than yours stop. Name: Carolina Crates. stop. Signed, FTS Gecko stop". Oh, and put a P.S.: "Please, please, please... stop."

I kid of course. Never listened to any of them.

@Brunas Yet another person who likes us more than you.

As an aside. I'm still having fun at league night. Half the reason I wanted these ships initially was the amount of Star Wars RPG I run, and the ships are still stellar for that. Hotac is amazing. But competitive? Its not as interesting as it used to be.

49 minutes ago, Chibi-Nya said:

Did your thingy with X-wing math2.0 whatever evolve into this? I heard about it on the S&V podcast today and was really surprised. It's great that it's getting more serious now, didn't know how it was turning out~

MathWing 1.0 was a first cut that established the theory.

MathWing 2.0 was more involved but still only worked for generics.

MathWing 3.0 exists only privately, unpublished. It models the action economy based on statline and upgrades, so it's useful for named pilots now. While not perfect, it's the first version that's "good enough" to be used as a design tool. So yes, I am using a combination of MathWing 3.0 and data analytics to balance Community Edition. Having 5 years of historical data and associated jousting values of the real game has tremendous value in knowing what figures of merit you need to hit with a given ship type.

The real test of course is when we start running tournaments with it, but then that leads to the other major advantage: quick response time on buffs/nerfs, and being able to directly change ability verbage and point costs at will.

41 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

You obviously didn't actually listen to The Kessel Run. There's a lot of wonky stuff in the game now, but we're all still having fun so how bad can it be?

I get that you have an agenda to push, but kindly leave us out of it.

Actually, I did listen to Kenny on his soapbox for about 20 minutes. . .

30 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

I mean, they literally all decided that X-wing is still a fun game.

. . .but obviously did not get this far.

20 minutes ago, Timathius said:

Wait, someone attacked someone else with out actually doing some research!?! on the internet!?!? surely not!

Well, your title does read "on a soapbox" which usually do not end in "positive final thoughts."

Ne'ertheless, I found the rant ironically amusing that "burnout" was a major part of the rant. Because IMHO, "burnout" is something reserved for careers/vocations. If you are experiencing burnout with a game, you are doing it wrong.

Whoa there y'all....I've got a ship to fix. I need all hands on deck.

I can't just have seamen all over the place making a mess.

Leave podcasters alone!

( Pulls blanket over his head)