I'm very wary of using the word statistics because people who are actual statisticians know this isn't really anything of the sort.

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm very wary of using the word statistics because people who are actual statisticians know this isn't really anything of the sort.

Obviously they don't have accreditation and things like tier are opinion based, but it is still using infographgics and ecouraging the use of data.

On 8/8/2017 at 10:48 AM, the1hodgy said:

Biggs Nerf: This text should read.

Biggs can't be target of friendly abilities or friendly card effects, that remove or reduce damage.

Or

Add this to first line of card

"While Not Stressed"

I think a simpler nerf is once per turn on biggs ability, but I like that no one else abilities can affect biggs.

5 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

I think a simpler nerf is once per turn on biggs ability, but I like that no one else abilities can affect biggs.

That gets repeated very often.

Unfortunately so because if anything it would make Biggs better.

The question is: better for what? I'd say you usually use him to keep other ships alive. And in the most ideal case, every ship, including Biggs, first gets reduced to 1hp before the first one dies. That requires maximal splitting of fire, not focus fire on Biggs.

So at worst he will be focused, which means nothing effectively changed. At best the fire will be split between the ships. I think it's important to realize that this is generally a good thing for the player with Biggs, not a bad thing.

True Green Dragon,

But what it does is allows ships that use abilites on biggs, to make them weaker, if the Wookie spends his reinforce, now he is open, same as others, so yes you split fire, but each ship in multiple turns will be hurt, instead of just Biggs avoiding the shots all together with all the other ships bonus lending. Plus it forces other players to decide if they want to use Biggs or not, where as now it just always is

11 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

I think a simpler nerf is once per turn on biggs ability, but I like that no one else abilities can affect biggs.

... So you think Biggs' ability should allow people to split fire against a squadron, and you consider that a nerf?

That's not a nerf. That's a win for the Biggs player. "Concentrated fire" is one of the rock-solid principles of competitive X-Wing. One of the reasons Fair Ship Rebels is so busted is that it doesn't allow you to concentrate fire even against Biggs.

3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

... So you think Biggs' ability should allow people to split fire against a squadron, and you consider that a nerf?

That's not a nerf. That's a win for the Biggs player. "Concentrated fire" is one of the rock-solid principles of competitive X-Wing. One of the reasons Fair Ship Rebels is so busted is that it doesn't allow you to concentrate fire even against Biggs.

Another option is that biggs has to take a minimum of 1 crit from any attacks when using his ability. Even if he avoids damage entirely.

Just now, eagletsi111 said:

Another option is that biggs has to take 1 damage from any attacks when using his ability.

That's not bad. (As long as the ability is mandatory, and it's "at least" 1 damage.) Six attacks, maximum, to kill Biggs? Seems okay at first glance.

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

That's not bad. (As long as the ability is mandatory, and it's "at least" 1 damage.) Six attacks, maximum, to kill Biggs? Seems okay at first glance.

I changed it to a crit, so after his two shields it could be less depending on the Crits.

6 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

but each ship in multiple turns will be hurt

I think I did not explain it well.

What you apparently want is actually much worse. If you play Biggs (or any list for that matter), you want that each ship is hurt as much as possible without exploding. There are very few exceptions, like Sabacc, but it's true for almost all ships. Slightly less on large ships, but only regarding points, not regarding strength of the list.

The reason is that every shot on a ship that does not kill it is "wasted" until the ship gets destroyed. Because it can shoot exactly with the same strength between 1 hull and full health.

On August 8, 2017 at 1:37 PM, GLEXOR said:

My idea for a Biggs nerf that doesn't hurt to much or to little.

This card should read: At the start of the combat phase, assign an evade token to each friendly ship at range 1. When a friendly ship spends an evade token to cancel a hit or critical hit, you suffer the canceled result.

As I said before, this is probably the best solution to our Biggs problem. No mater how much you try, if he is used to sponge, he can only block 6 hits/crits, unless he regens, in which case, you just shoot low agility ships and be done. Plus he can built to hit hard instead of soak fire.

49 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

... So you think Biggs' ability should allow people to split fire against a squadron, and you consider that a nerf?

That's not a nerf. That's a win for the Biggs player. "Concentrated fire" is one of the rock-solid principles of competitive X-Wing. One of the reasons Fair Ship Rebels is so busted is that it doesn't allow you to concentrate fire even against Biggs.

As it currently stands, though, Biggs is one of the most resilient ships in the list to attacks and allows players of the list to make easy decisions with their defenses because they know where all the attacks are going from the start of the turn. If the attacker has more options, that choice to spend the reinforce from Low, selflessness, or even DTF can create openings for the attacker that the list doesn't currently allow.

3 minutes ago, AlexW said:

As it currently stands, though, Biggs is one of the most resilient ships in the list to attacks and allows players of the list to make easy decisions with their defenses because they know where all the attacks are going from the start of the turn. If the attacker has more options, that choice to spend the reinforce from Low, selflessness, or even DTF can create openings for the attacker that the list doesn't currently allow.

So ... you're trying to nerf the specific list, not nerf Biggs? I understand the impetus, but generally speaking that's a bad idea. (C.f., three separate JM5K list nerfs ... )

Biggs pilot ability is so easy to fix, just make it stinking thematic:

"Other friendly ships at Range 1 cannot be targeted by attacks if you are closer to the attacker and they could target you instead."

Done.

Now where's my tea?

2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

"Other friendly ships at Range 1 cannot be targeted by attacks if you are closer to the attacker and they could target you instead."

The logistics of having to judge "closer," even with the requisite "it's in the rules, so I can measure!" rules abuses aside, means this is a non-starter. (Can you think of any mechanic in the game that uses "closer" or "farther" language?)

7 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

So ... you're trying to nerf the specific list, not nerf Biggs? I understand the impetus, but generally speaking that's a bad idea. (C.f., three separate JM5K list nerfs ... )

I think it works fine with other Biggs lists as well. Again, it gives opponent's choices that they wouldn't otherwise have. If maintaining fire on Biggs is better, they can do that, too.

3 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Biggs pilot ability is so easy to fix, just make it stinking thematic:

"Other friendly ships at Range 1 cannot be targeted by attacks if you are closer to the attacker and they could target you instead."

Done.

Now where's my tea?

1 minute ago, AlexW said:

I think it works fine with other Biggs lists as well. Again, it gives opponent's choices that they wouldn't otherwise have. If maintaining fire on Biggs is better, they can do that, too.

Nothing you're saying is wrong, exactly, it just isn't a fix for Biggs.

Biggs Lowrisk is now the top meta list, in front of triple Jumps. Who would have known...

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

... So you think Biggs' ability should allow people to split fire against a squadron, and you consider that a nerf?

That's not a nerf. That's a win for the Biggs player. "Concentrated fire" is one of the rock-solid principles of competitive X-Wing. One of the reasons Fair Ship Rebels is so busted is that it doesn't allow you to concentrate fire even against Biggs.

This argument is just so narrow and simple-minded. With a 3-4 ship list, I would LOVE the option of dumping just one attack into Biggs and unloading the rest into whoever he's protecting. See ya, Norra/Miranda/Kanan/etc.

Focus fire is an ideal, not a strict necessity. Sometimes it makes more sense not to. A good chunk of the time, when I face Biggs lists he ends up being last to die. Since the entire point of his existence is to protect the heavy hitters, if the heavy hitters have to sweat and not dump all of their maneuvers and actions into offense, it changes the picture immensely.

Maybe I'm not fully understanding the proposal for this Biggs nerf. Are y'all saying "once per turn and the Biggs player decides when," or "once per turn, and the attacker decides when," or "once per turn, the first time Biggs is attacked"?

I've flown with an against Biggs a lot -- including FSR recently -- and the first one (which is what I assume was meant) simply isn't a fix for him. I'm not saying it will never make a difference, but I'm definitely saying it is not enough of a difference to be a fix. It's not a nerf ... it's a near-meaningless tweak.

6 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Maybe I'm not fully understanding the proposal for this Biggs nerf. Are y'all saying "once per turn and the Biggs player decides when," or "once per turn, and the attacker decides when," or "once per turn, the first time Biggs is attacked"?

I've flown with an against Biggs a lot -- including FSR recently -- and the middle one (which is what I assume was meant) simply isn't a fix for him. I'm not saying it will never make a difference, but I'm definitely saying it is not enough of a difference to be a fix. It's not a nerf ... it's a near-meaningless tweak.

Any of those would be fine, I think. And it's far from meaningless. I really don't understand this mindset, at all. Lists designed around Biggs operate under the assumption that whoever he is protecting will get to unload until he's down. Spending that reinforce token on Lowhhrick suddenly becomes a much harder decision if he might be facing 2+ attacks without it, or if he might need to save it for Rex etc.

2 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Spending that reinforce token on Lowhhrick suddenly becomes a much harder decision if he might be facing 2+ attacks without it, or if he might need to save it for Rex etc.

It's just not that hard a decision. What perfect scenario are you envisioning where a player under this nerf has to make these agonizing decisions?

Lame Fair ship Rebels,

Lame "action efficiency"

Lame TLT spam.

25 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I've flown with an against Biggs a lot -- including FSR recently -- and the middle one (which is what I assume was meant) simply isn't a fix for him. I'm not saying it will never make a difference, but I'm definitely saying it is not enough of a difference to be a fix. It's not a nerf ... it's a near-meaningless tweak.

It's not meaningless, probably not enough of a nerf, but not completely meaningless. Example, I'm running a 3 ship list against Kanan/Biggs, Biggs is at R3, obstructed by tac jammer, and with a focus while Kanan is at R2 and focused. That's not uncommon and at the moment is ideal positioning for Kanan/Biggs. Even if I have to shoot Biggs with the first shot then it's certainly not dumb to fire the other 2 at Kanan who will just eat whatever I roll as opposed to trying to punch through 4 green dice on Biggles.

Even against FSR, where I think the proposed change would do the least good, it's not completely useless. It gives you the opportunity to fire on Rex and thus ignore his condition, it lets you strip shields off of Lowhrick so soaking up crits with DTF actually hurts, since the damage is going to get shared around anyways it lets you throw those dice at a lower agi/R4-D6less/tokenless/R1 ship to maximise the total damage the list takes, and it lets you concentrate fire and drop a weak ship after you've been forced to not concentrate damage for the last several turns by the lists other abilities.

Most importantly though it's an option, sure it's a trap for a certain subset of bad players. But against anyone who knows they should be concentrating fire to begin with it just gives them additional choices and player agency that they can then exercise or not depending on the lay of the land.