10 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

This here. Even if we were to say that a Sloaned token was targeted by the accuracy, and so elegible for ECM (which I don't believe it's the case) the token still COUOD NOT BE USED, as it was already spent, and it can only be spent once.

It's my belief that a Sloaned token has indeed been targeted by an Accuracy result, pretty much as DiabloAzul describes and as stated on page one of the rulebook a component's text, in this case a card, takes precedence if it contradicts the rulebook.

Don't get me wrong it's not a massive issue for me either way, I just think we need a ruling one way or the other. Will check back later to see if we have made any progress.

7 minutes ago, Bolshevik65 said:

It's my belief that a Sloaned token has indeed been targeted by an Accuracy result, pretty much as DiabloAzul describes and as stated on page one of the rulebook a component's text, in this case a card, takes precedence if it contradicts the rulebook.

Don't get me wrong it's not a massive issue for me either way, I just think we need a ruling one way or the other. Will check back later to see if we have made any progress.

But that s the thing. ECM states you can use a token that has been locked by an accuracy. It does not say you can use a token that has already been SPENT, which is a completely different thing from being locked.

The fact the token is spent makes it not usable, regardless of ECM. That's my take on it.

12 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

But that s the thing. ECM states you can use a token that has been locked by an accuracy. It does not say you can use a token that has already been SPENT, which is a completely different thing from being locked.

The fact the token is spent makes it not usable, regardless of ECM. That's my take on it.

Not trying to sound confrontational but look at what the ECM card actually says. Nowhere does it say "locked". It merely says "spend 1 defence token your opponent targeted with an Accuracy". By any reasonable use of the English language that is precisely what Sloane's fighter is doing.

I'm not trying to be dogmatic about this, you may well be right in your interpretation but speaking as someone who was on the RAW side of the original debate I think we should look at what the cards and rules actually say, not what we think they say or assume they mean.

I do say all that with respect, I don't want to start a flame war over plastic spaceships.

18 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

Except that you cannot use the same type of token twice in an attack regardless.

Just to clarify, I'm the camp that says ECM will not work against Sloane.

That is all the thing with ECM. It says you can spend targeted defense tokens. And rrg's "cannot" is not absolute.

I say ECM doesn't work because it would break other things.

However I am not against the ECM working idea, as long as it was not based on what is based right now cause it allows other stuff I don't like.

But if finally it works or not I don't care too much as I didn't about the defender being able to spend the token. As I said before, IMO it would have made Sloane more powerful with the already lethal howl+int+FC nightmare while, as she is now, she is not.

In the ECM case it only matters on really corner cases. But it would good to know of course.

8 minutes ago, Bolshevik65 said:

Not trying to sound confrontational but look at what the ECM card actually says. Nowhere does it say "locked". It merely says "spend 1 defence token your opponent targeted with an Accuracy". By any reasonable use of the English language that is precisely what Sloane's fighter is doing.

I'm not trying to be dogmatic about this, you may well be right in your interpretation but speaking as someone who was on the RAW side of the original debate I think we should look at what the cards and rules actually say, not what we think they say or assume they mean. I do say that with respect, I don't want to start a flame war over plastic spaceships.

people (including me) use the word locked to short hand the rule The chosen tokens cannot be spent during this attack now ECM over rules that part, so in effect 'unlocks' the defence token(s). It doesnt say any where that you can spend a token that is already spent in this attack.

Now when you spend an accuracy utilising Sloan's rules you are NOT locking the token but spending it, so know the defence token is spent not locked.

4 minutes ago, Bolshevik65 said:

Not trying to sound confrontational but look at what the ECM card actually says. Nowhere does it say "locked". It merely says "spend 1 defence token your opponent targeted with an Accuracy". By any reasonable use of the English language that is precisely what Sloane's fighter is doing.

I'm not trying to be dogmatic about this, you may well be right in your interpretation but speaking as someone who was on the RAW side of the original debate I think we should look at what the cards and rules actually say, not what we think they say or assume they mean. I do say that with respect, I don't want to start a flame war over plastic spaceships.

Oh no, we are cool bro, discussion is always good.

I was on the RAW side as well, if you recall.

And I agree that ECM says 'spend'.....but the RAW ruling, as handed down for Sloane, is that a SPENT token cannot be spent again during an attack. That was the whole crux of the Sloane debate.

A token targeted by an accuracy is NOT spent; it's merely unusable. ECM circumvents that un usability.

A token targeted by Sloane (regardless of whether it's targeted by the accuracy or the ability, I'm still unsure on that) is actually SPENT; as such, and according to the ruling, RAW, by FFG, it cannot be spent again, ergo ECM won't work.

I agree there may be some wiggle room in this interpretation, and an official errata, as always, would be welcome.

Accuracy G: The attacker can spend this icon to choose one of the defender’s defense tokens. The chosen defense token cannot be spent during this attack.

Spend Accuracy (G) Icons: The attacker can spend one or more of its G icons to choose the same number of the defender’s defense tokens . The chosen tokens cannot be spent during this attack.

• The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.
• A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.
If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is
absolute.

I think that is all involved.

Like i said this one issue could go both way, unlike everything else that was debated about Sloan. But it has other ramifications, unlike Sloane previous debates and for the purpose of Sloane herself, its really not that important really. Only Steele, Phantoms, Decimator can make this happen in some situations and really only for redirects and in most case this will be highly unfavorable for the defender. I think this is closer to the Mon Mothma ruling. The upgrade effect is another effect entirely that replaces accuracy effect that locks token. Its not the accuracy effect, it spends an accuracy result to do an upgrade effect, not to target a token with accuracy effect.

Its not a super major needed ruling, so that means itll come faster lol.

16 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

Oh no, we are cool bro, discussion is always good.

I was on the RAW side as well, if you recall.

And I agree that ECM says 'spend'.....but the RAW ruling, as handed down for Sloane, is that a SPENT token cannot be spent again during an attack. That was the whole crux of the Sloane debate.

A token targeted by an accuracy is NOT spent; it's merely unusable. ECM circumvents that un usability.

A token targeted by Sloane (regardless of whether it's targeted by the accuracy or the ability, I'm still unsure on that) is actually SPENT; as such, and according to the ruling, RAW, by FFG, it cannot be spent again, ergo ECM won't work.

I agree there may be some wiggle room in this interpretation, and an official errata, as always, would be welcome.

I see entirely what you're saying. RAW says tokens can't be spent twice in an attack. I totally agreed with that interpretation.

You're now saying that applies to ECMs as well. I'm totally ok with that.

But where you come a bit unstuck, as we Brits say, is page one of the rules that say card abilities take priority. Because ECMs ability would seemingly allow a targeted token to be spent, overriding the rulebook statement that tokens can only be spent once and it's pretty hard to argue by any reasonable use of English that a token hasn't been targeted here.

We could go round in circles of course. What we need is a ruling. Just a simple yes ECMs work or no they don't.

Actually just thinking about it. If you have Vader and TRC. If ECM can use a spend token a second time during an attack. You can both Vader and TRC the same Evade in the same turn. Thats of course if Sloane spending the Accuracy result, even count as targeting tokens like an accuracy and not the cost of an upgrade card.

8 minutes ago, mintek917 said:

Like i said this one issue could go both way, unlike everything else that was debated about Sloan. But it has other ramifications, unlike Sloane previous debates and for the purpose of Sloane herself, its really not that important really. Only Steele, Phantoms, Decimator can make this happen in some situations and really only for redirects and in most case this will be highly unfavorable for the defender. I think this is closer to the Mon Mothma ruling. The upgrade effect is another effect entirely that replaces accuracy effect that locks token. Its not the accuracy effect, it spends an accuracy result to do an upgrade effect, not to target a token with accuracy effect.

- Not Decimator.

- Contain against Maarek too and Evade with Mothma around.

- ECM wording doesn't care about the effect, just the "mechanic" (targeted by an acc). Actually if Mon Karren wasn't worded with "cannot", ECM could go through it too.

1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

- Not Decimator.

- Contain against Maarek too and Evade with Mothma around.

- ECM wording doesn't care about the effect, just the "mechanic" (targeted by an acc). Actually if Mon Karren wasn't worded with "cannot", ECM could go through it too.

Dunno why decimator where not rogue in my head, they are even worse in my head then in real lol.

7 minutes ago, mintek917 said:

Actually just thinking about it. If you have Vader and TRC. If ECM can use a spend token a second time during an attack. You can both Vader and TRC the same Evade in the same turn. Thats of course if Sloane spending the Accuracy result, even count as targeting tokens like an accuracy and not the cost of an upgrade card.

How can you get your own evade targeted by an accuracy icon?

4 minutes ago, mintek917 said:

Dunno why decimator where not rogue in my head, they are even worse in my head then in real lol.

With worse do you mean scary?

2 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

How can you get your own evade targeted by an accuracy icon?

No i mean to spend it twice in a single attack, bypassing the a defense token can only be spend once during an attack. As Sloane ruling said is that this is the case for the attacker as well. Vader+TRC in the same attack, both on an evade.

16 minutes ago, Bolshevik65 said:

I see entirely what you're saying. RAW says tokens can't be spent twice in an attack. I totally agreed with that interpretation.

You're now saying that applies to ECMs as well. I'm totally ok with that.

But where you come a bit unstuck, as we Brits say, is page one of the rules that say card abilities take priority. Because ECMs ability would seemingly allow a targeted token to be spent, overriding the rulebook statement that tokens can only be spent once and it's pretty hard to argue by any reasonable use of English that a token hasn't been targeted here.

We could go round in circles of course. What we need is a ruling. Just a simple yes ECMs work or no they don't.

I think the issue here is that normal Accuracies do NOT spend a defence token but rather they STOP the defender from spending it (hence people saying its locked). ECM over-rules the block on spending the targeted token.

Sloane spends the token... so it is no longer targeted by an accuracy and so ECM cannt over-rule the block to allow you to spend it.

4 minutes ago, mintek917 said:

No i mean to spend it twice in a single attack, bypassing the a defense token can only be spend once during an attack. As Sloane ruling said is that this is the case for the attacker as well. Vader+TRC in the same attack, both on an evade.

No you can't because that. On the other hand you can use Vader at speed 0

• If the defender’s speed is “0,” it cannot spend defense tokens.

However I am not sure if that was already questioned and is waiting for an answer.

2 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

No you can't because that. On the other hand you can use Vader at speed 0

• If the defender’s speed is “0,” it cannot spend defense tokens.

However I am not sure if that was already questioned and is waiting for an answer.

If ECM can break the rule for cannot spend a token twice in an attack. So should Vader and TRC. They are also both upgrade cards, they have the same priority over rules that ECM does. Anything with defender obviously wouldnt apply to vader or trc anyway.

4 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

I think the issue here is that normal Accuracies do NOT spend a defence token but rather they STOP the defender from spending it (hence people saying its locked). ECM over-rules the block on spending the targeted token.

Sloane spends the token... so it is no longer targeted by an accuracy and so ECM cannt over-rule the block to allow you to spend it.

Again, ECM doesn't care about the effect of targeting a token.

If some effect would care about spending a dial, it wouldn't care about if you spent it to resolve a command or to assign a command token.

The same happens here. ECM doesn't care, in its wording, about what being targeted means, it just allows you to spend a targeted token.

Beyond that we are moving into RAI as ECM was a core upgrade and it was obviously intended to work against "default" accuracies but it is not in its wording and with a deeper knowledge of the rules it seems it could work to spend two tokens of the same time since the beginning. That is the reason why I think here we should go with RAI. But RAW allows it as far as I understand.

13 minutes ago, mintek917 said:

If ECM can break the rule for cannot spend a token twice in an attack. So should Vader and TRC. They are also both upgrade cards, they have the same priority over rules that ECM does. Anything with defender obviously wouldnt apply to vader or trc anyway.

Sorry, Vader and TRC say that you/it may spend that token so yes, I suppose it would work the same way.

So what we have is RAI v RAW(L) v RAW(c)

Rules as Intended, Rules as Written (Legal English) & Rules As Written (Common use English)

No wonder why the Warmachine Rule book is treble the size of the armada one? because they tried to write it as RAW(L)

To be fair i dont think the ECM will pop up often enough as an issue at tables to bring that much confusion. You are discarding a token after a single squadron attack, a position that is unlikely to be great or positive very often. And exhausting ECM on top of it. Only one scenario would make you do such a thing. You have 1 hp left, but some shield and only one redirect and they have no other squadron or ship to activate.

Maybe this just escaped playtesting. Is there any way we can ask FFG for a ruling on this? ECM is certainly a common upgrade, Sloane is a popular admiral. It's worth asking but how do we go about it?

9 minutes ago, Bolshevik65 said:

Maybe this just escaped playtesting. Is there any way we can ask FFG for a ruling on this? ECM is certainly a common upgrade, Sloane is a popular admiral. It's worth asking but how do we go about it?

Mostly because the only blue squad that can make this result happen is Marek because he can roll one acc and damage or crit. Or tie Phantoms with 2 red (chuckle). Every other imperial squad that can use Sloane can only Roll her effect or damage, never both. So you can probably test 300 game and never be in a situation where youd even think of using ECM again those things. **** you can probably play 50 game before tie phantoms roll damage + accuracy in the same attack . I played an entire round where 6 tie phantoms produced 0 damage to the ship i had them attacking lol.

1 hour ago, ovinomanc3r said:

This guy's face is FFG watching us squabble about how Sloane works.