12 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

You all are conflating the Control upgrade to me there is no other way this power can be used to cause damage. That is fiction.

If I lift something to extreme range and drop it, I am not using the Force to inflict any damage at all with the Force. Gravity and the object's mass are doing that. There is no roll involved in the falling rules.

If the object happens to be sil 8 it's going to fall and crush a great deal of 'stuff' under it. That's all doable with FR3.

Move is OP.

I can also shoot stuff with starship weapons and do WAY more damage and that is possible with no force rating. **** a starting pilot can do that.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I can also shoot stuff with starship weapons and do WAY more damage and that is possible with no force rating. **** a starting pilot can do that.

Not without a ship. I can drop sil 8 objects in shorts and flip flops....

Just now, 2P51 said:

Not without a ship. I can drop sil 8 objects in shorts and flip flops....

Are you leaving silhouette 8 objects laying around? i mean giving the scale that is not a normal situation.

24 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

You all are conflating the Control upgrade to me there is no other way this power can be used to cause damage. That is fiction.

If I lift something to extreme range and drop it, I am not using the Force to inflict any damage at all with the Force. Gravity and the object's mass are doing that. There is no roll involved in the falling rules.

If the object happens to be sil 8 it's going to fall and crush a great deal of 'stuff' under it. That's all doable with FR3.

Move is OP.

Yes. By RAW, the only way to inflict damage with Move is through the Hurl upgrade, and that requires a ranged attack. Whether you personally consider that illogical, that is how the game rules it . So, no, you can't just pick up a silhouette 8 object, and drop it on someone or something, (or multiple someones and somethings) to cause damage without the Hurl upgrade and succeeding at a ranged attack. That is RAW. That is the balancing factor to prevent the abuse of power you're talking about.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes. By RAW, the only way to inflict damage with Move is through the Hurl upgrade, and that requires a ranged attack. Whether you personally consider that illogical, that is how the game rules it . So, no, you can't just pick up a silhouette 8 object, and drop it on someone or something, (or multiple someones and somethings) to cause damage without the Hurl upgrade and succeeding at a ranged attack. That is RAW. That is the balancing factor to prevent the abuse of power you're talking about.

No it isn't, because I'm not using the Force power to inflict the damage. Gravity is, and it's called the falling rules, you're wrong.

1 minute ago, 2P51 said:

No it isn't, because I'm not using the Force power to inflict the damage. Gravity is, and it's called the falling rules, you're wrong.

You are targeting one or more targets for damage . This requires aim. And that requires a ranged attack . That is by RAW .

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Are you leaving silhouette 8 objects laying around? i mean giving the scale that is not a normal situation.

Doesn't matter. FR3 character can stand on a hill and pick up sil 4 rocks, maybe 8 or 12 at a time, and rain them down on an area. Not a lot of xp, not a hugely rare object, no gear. All RAW.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

You are targeting one or more targets for damage . This requires aim. And that requires a ranged attack . That is by RAW .

I never said I was targeting anyone, I am dropping something.

Just now, 2P51 said:

Doesn't matter. FR3 character can stand on a hill and pick up sil 4 rocks, maybe 8 or 12 at a time, and rain them down on an area. Not a lot of xp, not a hugely rare object, no gear. All RAW.

sure. And unless you are not trying to do damage. in which case follow the hurl rules.

1 minute ago, 2P51 said:

I never said I was targeting anyone, I am dropping something.

Yeah you are still trying to do damage. That means hurl rules.

Just now, 2P51 said:

I never said I was targeting anyone, I am dropping something.

You did specifically, and repeatedly say to" smash things " and cause property damage , such as "destroying a field of ATATs" , and such. That is causing damage with Move , and that requires a raged attack.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

You did specifically, and repeatedly say to" smash things " and cause property damage , such as "destroying a field of ATATs" , and such. That is causing damage with Move , and that requires a raged attack.

I'm not causing the damage with Move, I am dropping an object. It is falling, and causing the damage when it lands. You're wrong.

Just now, 2P51 said:

I'm not causing the damage with Move, I am dropping an object. It is falling, and causing the damage when it lands. You're wrong.

yeah I wouldnt let you sidestep the rules like that. That it meta gaming. I wouldnt allow it.

1 minute ago, 2P51 said:

I'm not causing the damage with Move, I am dropping an object. It is falling, and causing the damage when it lands. You're wrong.

Wow, you are trying to split a very fine hair about wording. You still had to aim the rock to get it into position to let your guilt free gravity excuse kick in, and I'm pretty sure the devs have chimed in at one point or another, that this would still count as an attack.

It's not side stepping anything. You all are thinking that the Control upgrade applies the exclusive manner to cause damage to an object with Move and that is not what is written. It simply points out when you use an object as a weapon and hurl it, that is suffers damage.

Just now, 2P51 said:

I'm not causing the damage with Move, I am dropping an object. It is falling, and causing the damage when it lands. You're wrong.

No. If you are picking up an object with Move, then maneuvering it into position to drop on someone or something, that is a ranged attack . It is no different than targeting an area with bomb sites and dropping bombs from an aircraft. It is still an attack . It doesn't matter if gravity is taking over. The power is ultimately used to target someone or something to hit them for damage . By RAW that requires a ranged attack . The Move Power is simply the means to which the attack is made.

1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

Wow, you are trying to split a very fine hair about wording. You still had to aim the rock to get it into position to let your guilt free gravity excuse kick in, and I'm pretty sure the devs have chimed in at one point or another, that this would still count as an attack.

I'm not splitting any hairs. A player can without the Control upgrade lift an object into the air to long range. If they let go, what happens at your table?

3 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

It's not side stepping anything. You all are thinking that the Control upgrade applies the exclusive manner to cause damage to an object with Move and that is not what is written. It simply points out when you use an object as a weapon and hurl it, that is suffers damage.

We're not implying anything. We are all explicitly stating it as fact. That is exactly what the rules say. The only way touse move to attack anything or anybody is through the Hurl Control Upgrade. Period. It doesn't matter if you are actively throwing said object or simply dropping it on something. It is still a range attack covered by the Hurl upgrade. That is RAW .

So at your table then, if I don't have the Control upgrade I either can't let go of objects I've grabbed with Move, since I can't make a ranged attack, or, they suffer no damage at all whent hey fall from height. So if we are crashing I can just shove everyone out the door with Move and since I don't have the upgrade and can't make the roll, they can't suffer any damage.

16 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

So at your table then, if I don't have the Control upgrade I either can't let go of objects I've grabbed with Move, since I can't make a ranged attack, or, they suffer no damage at all whent hey fall from height. So if we are crashing I can just shove everyone out the door with Move and since I don't have the upgrade and can't make the roll, they can't suffer any damage.

No. You cannot drop them to inflict damage. If you drop them without the upgrade, no damage is inflicted that is RAW .

And as for pushing people out the door, that is more akin to the Bind's movement upgrade.

Sigh people who think you can just pick up objects with move and drop them on people forget the rules completely.

Move is a single round action you can not move the object out of a range band in a single move with the speed of move.

Range does not allow you to move an object from short to extreme range. It allows you to move an object that is within that range, but given the speed limitation of move you can never move an object into a new range band let alone from short to extreme range with out Hurl or Pull.

Pull lets you get the velocity to pull an object free.

Hurl lets you throw things with enough velocity to deal damage.

Using move to drop a rock on someone will be like this.

Round 1: I move rock up it goes from short to short range then ends any character under said rock would see it moving and just step out of the way, because its moving at the same speed Yoda used to move the X-wing which as we all know was sloooooooooooooooooow.

Since its entirely optional by GM to allow committing for multiround actions which given the speed of move would be required to lift an object to extreme range its impossible by raw to do that.

Seriously guys go back and read the rules.

1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

I'm not splitting any hairs. A player can without the Control upgrade lift an object into the air to long range. If they let go, what happens at your table?

Without the Control upgrade, and without making a Ranged attack, it gets there over several rounds, with the Force user committing a Force die and using his action each round to do it. Slow and deliberate is the name of the game. The Force user would also suffer strain each round, equal to the object's silhouette. Depending on the composition of the object, and how sturdy it is, it might start to fall apart under its own weight while being held aloft. During this process in might end up losing quite a bit of mass as pieces of the whole came haphazardly crashing down.

Finally, when the large object was dropped, I would determine the precise location of the drop. It can't be aimed, so best that the player can do is specify a general vicinity. And depending on how much indiscriminate destruction he caused with the drop, I would award an appropriate amount of Conflict. We're talking dark Jedi in the making, here.

Remember also that range bands are relative to you, so if you wanted to move the object up to long range, that's long range straight up, relative to you . Who's to say you don't accidentally crush yourself during these shenanigans?

I can see it now! All the other player characters quickly run away as the gunship looms overhead: "It's okay, I got this, guys! ...Guys?"

Hmm did I forget that as a rule given how we see Yoda use move said commit would leave you completely defenseless to enemy attacks so no parry dodge or defensive bonuses from anyone who decides to attack the guy with his eyes closed concentrating on the force to move a giant rock for the next 6 actions.

I will point out that I did this once with the engines of a ship my group was salvaging to repair our own and walked it very slowly back to our ship. Its something I have done a lot of which is lifting heavy objects and moving them around so we can repair broken stuff.

For users across the board seem to have to use both hands when lifting heavy objects with the Force. I'd apply that aspect judiciously, but it's certainly fair game, especially if a player is trying to abuse the Move power.

GM: "Sure, you can do that, but you need to put away your lightsaber in order to focus properly on controlling the giant mushroom."

Munchkin: "But the rules don't say anything about wah wah wah wah..."

GM: "Have you seen Star Wars? This will require the use of both hands."

30 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Sigh people who think you can just pick up objects with move and drop them on people forget the rules completely.

Move is a single round action you can not move the object out of a range band in a single move with the speed of move.

Actually I believe the Developer answered question related to this very point stated that movement of an item is done in a single round, regardless of range

31 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Range does not allow you to move an object from short to extreme range. It allows you to move an object that is within that range, but given the speed limitation of move you can never move an object into a new range band let alone from short to extreme range with out Hurl or Pull.

Again, clarified, that the entire move happens in one round. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

2 hours ago, 2P51 said:

I'm not causing the damage with Move, I am dropping an object. It is falling, and causing the damage when it lands. You're wrong.

yeah I wouldnt let you sidestep the rules like that. That it meta gaming. I wouldnt allow it.

I am curious what you would do to prevent? Not that I like it (despite how creative it is), but its not metagaming at all. If someone "moves" a star destroyer sized boulder (we are talking like a ELE sized asteroid here) and releases it this boulder from a height of 100 meters, the village underneath it will be destroyed. Heaven forbid they do it from a 1000 meters. This is not metagaming. This is how physics works.

Can arguments be made about "it requires lots of XP"? Sure, but those arguments fall flat on me.

Can arguments be made about "It makes you a one trick pony?" Sure, but what exactly is a "one trick pony?"

Can arguments be made that is "breaks the implied GM - Player narrative story telling and the player should self police?" Sure, but any game mechanic that requires a player or GM to simply avoid using because it 'breaks' the game is by definition a broken rule

Can arguments be made that there are "more effective and "broken" ways to do damage" in this system? Yes, there can be this argument and while I tend to agree with it, I would also say that just because you can kill someone using autofire doesn't mean you should double down on those broken rules and make another way to kill someone dead just as easily.