13 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

Yeah, the F&D version is ridiculously powerful. When you only have a single Strength upgrade, the game works pretty well. But the moment you start getting more than one rank, Move gets ridiculously strong. There's already been a very lengthy discussion about this on this forum somewhere.

Not really. Think about it. In order to pull off the thing people fear you need something like 6 force pips. That means a minimum of 3 force rating and being extremely lucky. To do it reliably you probably need 4 or 5 force rating. How much XP does that take? Then you need 75 xp in move. And are gonna want a lot of discipline. We are talking like 600 xp on this trick alone. Of course if you have that much xp dedicated to doing this you are gonna be able to do crazy stuff. But then you should be able to. as you have 600 xp in it. People really need to colm down on their fear of move. It is no where near as scary as it is made out to be. No one seems to ever consider at what power level these scary feats are available at.

34 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No one seems to ever consider at what power level these scary feats are available at.

Framing the issue as "fear" is misleading. It's not about "fear", it's about "ever". If Yoda and Palpy couldn't do it, it can't be done. If Yoda had to concentrate fully to keep a Sil3 object from crushing his friends, that's the upper limit, and you don't get there easily. I don't care how much XP a PC earns, there will never be a Starkiller in my game. This means most of Move is a wasteland of pointless upgrades.

29 minutes ago, whafrog said:

Framing the issue as "fear" is misleading. It's not about "fear", it's about "ever". If Yoda and Palpy couldn't do it, it can't be done. If Yoda had to concentrate fully to keep a Sil3 object from crushing his friends, that's the upper limit, and you don't get there easily. I don't care how much XP a PC earns, there will never be a Starkiller in my game. This means most of Move is a wasteland of pointless upgrades.

and Starkiller did. So a role playing game needs to be able to handle your desires as well as the desires of those who want to do force unleashed type things. The compromise they came up with is that to do epic Starkiller things requires requires epic levels of XP. And that I see as a perfectly fine compromise.

The thing is Yoda was not the most powerful Jedi, honestly I'm not even sure he's in the top 10.

Also you are forgetting the most important lesson Yoda gives on Move "Size matters not" meaning Yoda has to use the same level of concentration to move a pea as he does to move a planet.

Also one of Luke's Apprentices in the EU yanked a Star Destroyer out of orbit. He died after, but he still pulled it down onto the planet from space.

A lot of this debate comes down to personal preference. Some tables like having the frankly ridiculous levels of power that the EU introduced with characters like Starkiller, and some tables prefer a more "movie accurate" level of power, where even lifting an X-Wing is a difficult feat to accomplish. At my table, we wanted to keep the game as in-line with the movies and tv shows as possible, so I heavily homeruled Move to do so. At other tables, people are more open to the idea of being able to lift an AT-AT off the ground with only two Force points. If that's something that doesn't bother you, and you feel is balanced, feel free to allow it. But don't act like others are wrong for not wanting it at their table.

One problem movie accurate means the size of the object has zero bearing on the difficulty to move it.

The only reason Luke had a hard time yanking his X-wing out of the swamp is because he didn't believe he could do it.

14 minutes ago, Decorus said:

One problem movie accurate means the size of the object has zero bearing on the difficulty to move it.

The only reason Luke had a hard time yanking his X-wing out of the swamp is because he didn't believe he could do it.

There's a difference between "movie-accurate" and "according to something Yoda told Luke once."

If Yoda himself is any indication, lifting large objects is taxing and requires some solid effort and focus. One could point to those instances and say that, while there might be some truth to what Yoda said, it was probably said spefically because Yoda knew he was working within a very limited time frame and needed to get Luke ready to assassinate his father and the most powerful Sith Lord in living memory.

According to Yoda who has no reason to lie

1. The size of the object does not matter.

2. It requires you to believe you can do it.

3. It was not taxing at all when Yoda pulled the X-wing out of the swamp and moved it to dry ground it required what appeared to be minimal concentration while he closed his eyes and gestured. It did not appear to tax him at all.

According to Movie Canon moving a Death Star with the Force is as difficult as moving R2 D2.

Now when Yoda stops the stone that Dooku tossed I'm pretty sure it had more to do with Dooku and Yoda fighting with thier full mental might. Meaning the reason it was taxing is the two were in game terms making opposed discipline checks one to smash them with the rocks the other to move the rocks away which as we all know two Jedi Masters going at it with the Force is pretty tiring.

Whether or not Yoda had a reason to lie is a matter of conjecture (as I showed in my post above yours, I believe he had a darn good reason to lie).

But even if we go by what you're saying, @Decorus , then increasing the Difficulty by silhouette of the object makes perfect sense, because you have to exercise your Discipline to cause your mind to ignore the size of the object.

There's a difference between knowing something to be true and acting on that truth. And that is where Discipline comes in. It's really quite an elegant solution, like most of this game's mechanics!

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

and Starkiller did. So a role playing game needs to be able to handle your desires as well as the desires of those who want to do force unleashed type things. The compromise they came up with is that to do epic Starkiller things requires requires epic levels of XP. And that I see as a perfectly fine compromise.

Absolutely, I get it. I'm mostly objecting to the framing of the issue*. It's not a fear thing, it's a flavour thing.

* I do think they could have made put the Starkiller stuff in another tree ala Signature Ability, but...(shrug)...

No he doesn't. Yoda is training Luke to kill Darth Vader and the Emperor. He wants Luke to succeed he needs Luke to be able to hurl planets, smash at-ats, crush Star Destroyers with his mind.

His goal in lying about luke's father, sister and if there are any more Jedi out there is to keep Luke focused on the task at hand which is murdering Darth Vader and Palpatine.

So no he isn't going to try and make Luke feel better, he isn't going to not train him properly he is going to tell the absolute truth to get Luke the power and skills needed to be a One Man Jedi Murder Squad capable of things that make the Galaxy Tremble in his presence.

Like it or not Being able to toss sil 8 objects is possible with movie Canon all you have to do is believe you can do it.

So using the movies as an excuse does not cut it. Bottom Line people don't like that kind of power level, because they fear it and thus come up with excuses to justify it.

I get the feeling you're conflating what I said with what someone else is saying, @Decorus , cuz you're talking right past my points.

I fundamentally agree with you on some parts.

I find how ever the arguement that it shouldn't be possible, because see movies is BS.

In the movies its made clear by Yoda that the size does not matter.

So people who go you can't do this cause Movies are full of BS and looking for a flimsy excuse to justify denying it rather then having the balls to go "Nope I don't want that level of power at my table."

By the rules you want to move a sil 8 object you can. You can't move it far or actually use it as a weapon, but you can move it without a roll.

The roll only comes into play when you try to hurl it or if you try and move people who will resist.

If moving high silhouette objects is a problem in your game then allow for greater than 5 difficulty dice, there is already a precedent for it in the response about Tractor Beam difficulty checks (6 for the largest) Its never been confirmed one way or another if moving a sil 8 object would require an 8 purple check or whether it becomes an impossible check , in fact I dont think Ive seen a response stating that "ranked" difficulties stop at 5 , ie someone with Fearsome 8 causing 8 purple checks. So capping the difficulty at 5 purple could be, in itself, a house rule. Im sure if Im wrong someone will come up with a dev response that answers that.

Ultimately the rules dont cover situations where the difficulty goes beyond 5, one suggestion for fearsome ranks greater than 5 was to upgrade checks, so 8 would be RRRPP, you could apply that house rule here, so calling for an impossible check and upgrading further dice. Remember that if you do the latter and ask for an impossible check you then cant use a destiny point to use the opposite pips for the force power, because of the 1 DP per check limit.

@Decorus Yeah I agree, we have canon examples of Force users moving some massive stuff, and Yoda's statement should have at least a ring of truth—"only different in your mind."

But the rules are a framework and call on the GM to make calls all the time. Do you think a starship's crew would sit idly by while their ship is being pulled towards something? They'd be firing thrusters, putting auxiliary power to their sublight engines, boosting their repulsors; anything to regain control. So the rules for resistance come into play in that instance—your force of will vs the capital ship's engines.

I should point out something important that people forget.

MOVE DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO MOVE AN OBJECT MORE THEN A FEW METERS A SECOND. The speed that Yoda moves the X-wing is it. You won't be able to do anything with that.

Anything with any real velocity behind it is either Control Pull or Control Hurl.

That being said using move with out those upgrades on a space ship isn't going to do a thing its got too much momentum for you to do anything with it.

It doesn't matter anyway since move lasts a single round and has no in rules way to be commited to extend the duration. (Which was a mistake since we have seen Yoda do just that multiple times)

39 minutes ago, Decorus said:

In the movies its made clear by Yoda that the size does not matter.

He said it once, but it's clearly not an absolute literal truth. His point was to jog Luke out of his preconceptions. Otherwise he wouldn't be straining and heaving a hollow metal tube while Dooku ran away, or become visibly tired pulling on an X-Wing. Heck, if there are no limits you could create your own personal black hole.

25 minutes ago, Decorus said:

I should point out something important that people forget.

MOVE DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO MOVE AN OBJECT MORE THEN A FEW METERS A SECOND. The speed that Yoda moves the X-wing is it. You won't be able to do anything with that.

Anything with any real velocity behind it is either Control Pull or Control Hurl.

That being said using move with out those upgrades on a space ship isn't going to do a thing its got too much momentum for you to do anything with it.

It doesn't matter anyway since move lasts a single round and has no in rules way to be commited to extend the duration. (Which was a mistake since we have seen Yoda do just that multiple times)

This was covered in a sidebar in one of the books (moving and duration side bar on page 299 F&D Core)

Which is completely optional as in you can completely ignore it.

16 hours ago, whafrog said:

He said it once, but it's clearly not an absolute literal truth. His point was to jog Luke out of his preconceptions. Otherwise he wouldn't be straining and heaving a hollow metal tube while Dooku ran away, or become visibly tired pulling on an X-Wing. Heck, if there are no limits you could create your own personal black hole.

Because using the most exhausting form of Lightsaber combat would have zero effect on an Ancient being like Yoda right?

Also he doesn't look tired pulling the X-wing out of the swamp it actually looks like he is just calm collected and completely unaffected by what he is doing.

51 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Which is completely optional as in you can completely ignore it.

Yes, but since you were the one to point out that it wasnt covered under the move power, I thought that I would add in that it was, also sidebars arent optional, unless they say they are, they just give some suggestions though of how to rule what you say was a mistake in the rules

It doesn't matter anyway since move lasts a single round and has no in rules way to be commited to extend the duration. (Which was a mistake since we have seen Yoda do just that multiple times)

They give you multiple ways to rule it in that sidebar. This system sometimes needs the GM to figure out a way of working things instead of adding in every last detail and hand holding you for every option.

4 hours ago, Decorus said:

Also he doesn't look tired pulling the X-wing out of the swamp it actually looks like he is just calm collected and completely unaffected by what he is doing.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about that.

Though it doesn't say much for your ability to detect emotion on a muppet's face... (jk )

5 hours ago, Decorus said:

Which is completely optional as in you can completely ignore it.

Like literally everything in the rulebook is...

The largest objects moved in canon happened in the Lords of the Sith book. Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader both moved a couple of freighters (so we're talking Silhouette 4 here). However, Palpatine and Vader disabled their engines first before crashing them down to the planet and they were making attack runs on them which means they were close to the ground. Vader even strained quite a bit trying to accomplish this.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that you have to disable the engines or power of a vehicle before attempting to move it with the Force, in which case Star Destroyer shenanigans wouldn't happen.

I would also say it's reasonable to rule that the character needs the object to be fully within the Extreme range band as that is mechanically as far as a character can use the Move power. Extreme is roughly a Kilometer and Imperial I-Class Star Destroyers are 1.6 Kilometers in length, so it would literally have to be centered above the character for one to move it.

Using the rules for the Hurl upgrade of Move, the difficulty to attempt crashing a Star Destroyer down to a planet would be equal to its Silhouette, 8.

Using the rules for Impossible checks, the difficulty to hurl a Star Destroyer would actually translate into 3 red 2 purple and require the character to flip a Destiny point just to attempt such a thing.

The use of a Destiny point just to attempt this Impossible check cuts that character off from whatever Force Points rolled that are of the opposite alightment (lightsider couldn't use dark pips, darksider couldn't use light pips).

TL;DR Personally, in my games I would allow the attempt to be made as long as: the vehicle engines are disabled or turned off, the object is within the Extreme range band (for Star Destroyers that would be right overhead) & the player has the Destiny point available & is willing to spend it to make the 3 red, 2 purple Impossible check. This would also take, at minimum 4 Force Points (base+strengthx2+range) from whatever alignment the character is, so 4 light for lightsiders or 4 dark for darksiders.

In the event they succeed, the player can only move this object within the Extreme range band at most, so basically shifting it a little in either direction or bringing it down right above his own head, crushing his character to death instantly.

2 hours ago, GroggyGolem said:

The largest objects moved in canon happened in the Lords of the Sith book. Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader both moved a couple of freighters (so we're talking Silhouette 4 here). However, Palpatine and Vader disabled their engines first before crashing them down to the planet and they were making attack runs on them which means they were close to the ground. Vader even strained quite a bit trying to accomplish this.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that you have to disable the engines or power of a vehicle before attempting to move it with the Force, in which case Star Destroyer shenanigans wouldn't happen.

I would also say it's reasonable to rule that the character needs the object to be fully within the Extreme range band as that is mechanically as far as a character can use the Move power. Extreme is roughly a Kilometer and Imperial I-Class Star Destroyers are 1.6 Kilometers in length, so it would literally have to be centered above the character for one to move it.

Using the rules for the Hurl upgrade of Move, the difficulty to attempt crashing a Star Destroyer down to a planet would be equal to its Silhouette, 8.

Using the rules for Impossible checks, the difficulty to hurl a Star Destroyer would actually translate into 3 red 2 purple and require the character to flip a Destiny point just to attempt such a thing.

The use of a Destiny point just to attempt this Impossible check cuts that character off from whatever Force Points rolled that are of the opposite alightment (lightsider couldn't use dark pips, darksider couldn't use light pips).

TL;DR Personally, in my games I would allow the attempt to be made as long as: the vehicle engines are disabled or turned off, the object is within the Extreme range band (for Star Destroyers that would be right overhead) & the player has the Destiny point available & is willing to spend it to make the 3 red, 2 purple Impossible check. This would also take, at minimum 4 Force Points (base+strengthx2+range) from whatever alignment the character is, so 4 light for lightsiders or 4 dark for darksiders.

In the event they succeed, the player can only move this object within the Extreme range band at most, so basically shifting it a little in either direction or bringing it down right above his own head, crushing his character to death instantly.

IE with force rating 4 off are not good you can do it. Probably iffy even at force rating 6 and 7 is where your odds are decent. But still good odds of failing.