So I've been trying to work out some edge cases that I think shouldn't work, probably, or at least would be a bit powerful for the cost, and trying to work out if the rules prevent them (and I think they do).

Skilled Assistance from a Minion Group. So, can you have, say, an Intellect 4 character with six DUM-Series Pit Droids rolling YYYYG whilst crafting for only 2.7k credits? Whilst these minions can act as a group with Mechanics 5, the rules for skilled assistance only allows one character to help another, not one character to help a group or one group to help a character. Nowhere can I find mention of treating a groups of minions as a character.

Skilled Assistance from a Droid Brain (eg Astrogation, Autopilot, Gunnery). These are more expensive, around 7k credits. They explicitly can assist, and when Modded (for another 2k credits), could have a skill of 4. This seems a pretty cheap alternative to spending 50 xp on skills. However, skilled assistance can only be offered out of structured time, so whilst this can help with Astrogation or Piloting in a non pressured environment, the Droid Brains can only provide a boost die using an assist maneuver instead.

Any other edge case abuse that shouldn't work ?

RAW does not prevent skilled assistance during structured time. The assist maneuver can be skilled or unskilled.

RAW is a little vague on the minion group issue as well, it says that generally only one character can assist, but it's up to the GM to determine if a given situation allows for further assistance, but that further assisting characters each offer a boost in that scenario. Generally minions do act like a single character in a lot of ways, so I think it's perfectly valid for a GM to allow or disallow minion group skilled assistance depending on whether or not the scenario makes sense. Crafting a lightsaber probably can't have 6 pairs of hands involved at once, but repairing a ship could. Providing boosts for each minion is also a powerful upgrade, though it doesn't add chance to triumph, so that may be a better way to interpret minion assistance.

Consider also that the minion group can make a check by itself, so couldn't a single high-int character assist the minion group? I'd call that allowable by RAW and has the same result, though the rulebook still states the GM may impose conditions or restrictions on assistance beyond RAW, and could disallow this in a given scenario.

7 minutes ago, Matope said:

RAW does not prevent skilled assistance during structured time. The assist maneuver can be skilled or unskilled.

Quote

During combat or structured encounters, when initiative and the order in which people act is more important, assistance can be accomplished by performing the assist maneuver.

Quote

Performing the assist maneuver allows an engaged ally to add 'Boost' to his next check.

EoE CRB p. 26

EoE CRB p. 200

Respectively. I think this is the basis of Darzil's opinion on skilled assistance and one I share.

6 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

EoE CRB p. 26

EoE CRB p. 200

Respectively. I think this is the basis of Darzil's opinion on skilled assistance and one I share.

The p. 26 quote is specifically what I was looking at. Note that it just says "assistance" without specifying skilled or unskilled, and importantly is part of a separate subheading on timing that comes after both types of assistance have been discussed in their own subheadings. Given this is the detailed section on assistance and p. 200 is about maneuvers, I would side with p. 26 over p. 200, much like the long text on a talent. I do understand siding with a strict adherence to what the maneuver section states, but I'd call that up to GM interpretation and mostly situational. I'll grant that in most combat situations, skilled assistance would not make sense; I would obviously not allow skilled assistance on a melee check. Pretty much the only combat check I can think of that I would allow skilled assistance on is with a droid brain, as that's how I read their intended purpose, they are functioning as an advanced targeting computer. I would definitely allow skilled assistance during structured time on certain non-combat actions like a computers or medicine check.

I think that's creative reading on your part. It says assistance in combat and structured time is provided by the assist Maneuver specifically and the assistance Maneuver is clearly defined specifically. The section p. 26 specifically refers you to the section on the assist Maneuver for details of that. I don't find it ambiguous at all personally.

skilled assistance for a minion group should work for crafting, but it works even easier to just craft a single rival droid with high levels of a skill with moderate int. Then you can have a group of cheap rival droidsto do any skill. My personal favorite are gunnery droids though.

9 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I think that's creative reading on your part. It says assistance in combat and structured time is provided by the assist Maneuver specifically and the assistance Maneuver is clearly defined specifically. The section p. 26 specifically refers you to the section on the assist Maneuver for details of that. I don't find it ambiguous at all personally.

The fact it refers to the maneuver section is the biggest point toward it being boost only. If that's really RAI, then I think the assistance section is structured poorly. If structured-time assistance can only ever be unskilled, the paragraph on timing should have been part of the unskilled assistance subheading and not come under its own heading after the restrictions section that clearly applies to both. As it is, the assistance section implies both are allowed unless you consider the maneuver section to override it with a fairly simple description of the assist maneuver as part of a list of maneuvers. Then again, if skilled assistance is meant to be allowed, the maneuver description should probably reference back to the more detailed section on assistance, which it does not.

It all falls under the primary section of Assisted Checks, it's structured fine.

I think that would make the combat section poorly structured if you took a detail out of combat and only put it in the basic dice pool section.

There's also nothing implied, it is clearly spelled out, assistance in combat is provided via the Maneuver and the Maneuver is clearly defined. You can not run it that way or not like it, but it's not unclear.

For there to be an implication that it doesn't work this way it would require the entry on p. 26 to not even exist, there is no implication skilled and unskilled assistance are both options in combat/structured play. There is a very clear section pointing out the Maneuver is used.

3 hours ago, Darzil said:

Any other edge case abuse that shouldn't work ?

None of them should ever work, because:

Quote

If the explanation is reasonable, the GM MAY allow that assistance.

AoR CRB p. 33

Literally, the RAW back: "Nah, not right now, it just doesn't fit the narrative."

Aside from that:

In certain cases I do allow skilled assistance in structured play, requiring an action by both participants, resolving it at the latter of the two initiative slots. In the case of a Droid Brain that would happen at the end of the round (0 initiative dice).

I, explicitly, do not allow assistance by minion groups, only by individuals; I consider the increased skill of larger groups to be another interpretation of them assisting each other. So, the lead minion may choose between your assistance and their buddies'.

2 minutes ago, Grimmerling said:

None of them should ever work, because:

AoR CRB p. 33

Literally, the RAW back: "Nah, not right now, it just doesn't fit the narrative."

Aside from that:

In certain cases I do allow skilled assistance in structured play, requiring an action by both participants, resolving it at the latter of the two initiative slots. In the case of a Droid Brain that would happen at the end of the round (0 initiative dice).

I, explicitly, do not allow assistance by minion groups, only by individuals; I consider the increased skill of larger groups to be another interpretation of them assisting each other. So, the lead minion may choose between your assistance and their buddies'.

I like using both actions for structured assistance, and now that you mention that I think that's what I've required in the past (It doesn't come up often). It makes sense for skilled assistance to require the concentration of both parties, and the main requirement for assistance is what could sensibly be attempted.

Also, and this is just my opinion, but you can apply boosts and setback liberally.

So like with your mob of pit droids. The things were built to support a vehicle mechanic, that's their purpose. So if they help you craft a landspeeder great they should work perfectly for that.

If they help you craft. A suit of power armor... Not so much, it's just a bit too outside thier programming. So you get some setbacks on that to represent the odds a of droid borking it up and giving your helmet steering vanes and an ion engine.

Personally I tend to see less problems with the crafting rules and more with people.

"Oh, if instead of looking for R2, I spend the next 8 weeks just rolling crafting check after crafting check, by probability I'll eventually create the perfect suit of armor!"

.....ok, you have the perfect suit of armor. R2 gets captured, the Empire blows up Alderraan and Yavin, you lose. No XP or credits and the campaign is over....

If skilled assistance is not allowed in combat, then I do not think that the Gunner Droid Brain and Auto-Buzzer (both with skill ratings and 0 Agility) would have the text written as they do.

I'm away from my books right now, but I think that's just meant to indicate that a Gunner Droid Brain can assist a PC gunner using the assist maneuver. So the PC adds a boost die to their check.

I don't allow skilled assistance in combat/structured encounters because that's how I read the rules. Also I don't allow any talents to be applied to skilled assistance checks from either party as it is a joint effort. You either let the talented person make the roll (and remove setbacks or add boosts for talents) or you get the improved dice pool for combining higher attributes and ranks (there are a few exceptions to this however).

Totally my opinion here, it's just how I run things to make the choices and talents more meaningful.

2 hours ago, FinarinPanjoro said:

Totally my opinion here, it's just how I run things to make the choices and talents more meaningful.

I work it the opposite--with both parties able to contribute relevant Talents--because I feel it makes teamwork more valuable, especially on tasks where multiple people with differing strengths working together makes sense to be more successful.

i run it this way:

Structed Time:

Assist maneuver to add blue dice to the engaged friend (can be used for nearly everything as long as it works with narative and is possible)

Skilled assitance: Only on actions, using both SC actions (check is rolled when the second Character has his turn) but only for not combat checks (so no help to aim with this balster or wielding the lightsaber)

only exclusion:

Droid Gunner Brain: ether it has its own turn with 2-4 green after the pilot or it gives Skilled assitance to the gunner (as long as his ranks in gunnery are lower than 2-4) otherwise it is normal assitance with a blue dice

1 hour ago, Nightone said:

Skilled assitance: [...] only for not combat checks [...]

And why is that I wonder. I wouldn't base my consideration on a rules technicality, rather on feasibility and reasonability.

Can you help someone firing a handheld blaster? Well, not really, only if a certain kind of pulpy romanticism is to be narrated.

Can ordnance be operated in joint action? Most can, I suppose. Why, it might even be a requirement.

In the case of indirect fire I can even imagine (not sure I would allow it, say) a spotter guiding your fire with their Cunning instead of Agility.

2 hours ago, Grimmerling said:

And why is that I wonder. I wouldn't base my consideration on a rules technicality, rather on feasibility and reasonability.

Can you help someone firing a handheld blaster? Well, not really, only if a certain kind of pulpy romanticism is to be narrated.

Can ordnance be operated in joint action? Most can, I suppose. Why, it might even be a requirement.

In the case of indirect fire I can even imagine (not sure I would allow it, say) a spotter guiding your fire with their Cunning instead of Agility.

Snipers routinely use spotters to help them select and hit their targets.

Many heavy weapons are operated by teams.

As you said, almost all mounted weapons are operated by teams.

IMO, calculating indirect fire would be a Knowledge (Education) check for the mathematics involved rather than a Cunning-based check.

On 8/8/2017 at 4:32 PM, HappyDaze said:

I work it the opposite--with both parties able to contribute relevant Talents--because I feel it makes teamwork more valuable, especially on tasks where multiple people with differing strengths working together makes sense to be more successful.

I used to do it this way as well, but what I ended up feeling was that the choice of whether to let a truly talented person make a check over a group effort was the more interesting choice than allowing everyone's talents to apply all the time. It also allowed the talented individual to really feel special because they were better at doing something on their own than they were with someone's help (though I still allow unskilled assistance to give a boost die). So someone with a high Streetwise score might let another player make the Streetwise check if the other player has 2 ranks of Street Smarts (and they know they're going to have multiple setback dice) and then grant them a boost die via unskilled assistance.

Indirect fire could be an out of structured time skill use to me and since it is a multi-person activity I'd probably allow it and I would allow Cunning since it governs Survival (wind direction, air density, gravity variations, etc). I also allow characters to spend an Action making someone else's check easier in ways similar to how some of the piloting actions work. A successful CoPilot Action can downgrade Piloting difficulty or a successful Plot Course Action can remove setback dice from another character Piloting check. I'd allow a spotter to work in this way as well (maybe a successful Perception check removes Setback dice from the Sniper's Combat Check and so on).

You and I have very different interpretations of the Survival skill. I don't think I've ever seen the three things you mention ever discussed on Man vs Wild or any other survival show aside from discussions of wind chill and advise not to take a long fall. OTOH, all of those are operationalized through mathematics, which falls under Knowledge (Education).

Cunning because Perception.

3 hours ago, Grimmerling said:

Cunning because Perception.

If you're talking about indirect fire, remember that you're often targeting shots to where you can't perceive.

I couldn't remember if Cunning governed Perception when I wrote my post! Yes, in the case a spotter I completely agree with using Cunning.

On Survival vs Know (Edu) for indirect fire, true but Man vs. Wild,etc all take place on and refer to conditions on Earth. I assume Survival in Star Wars to encompass accommodating changes due to different planets and environments (denser/thinner atmosphere, higher /lower gravity, strange magnetic variances, multi-moon tidal forces, etc) all of which would have major impact on artillery trajectory. Not that you couldn't use Knowledge (Education) you certainly could...but then wouldn't Astrogation also be appropriate?

Knowledge warfare would be a better fit for artillery IMO.

On ‎11‎.‎08‎.‎2017 at 1:38 PM, HappyDaze said:

If you're talking about indirect fire, remember that you're often practically always targeting shots to where you can't perceive.

The very definition of indirect fire, indeed!

Cunningly enter the spotter.