I'm working on laying out where I want this character to go later down the line, and I've hit a snag. I'm not sure if I want to go with Soresu or Niman. The character is currently FR2, with the base power of Move, Sense, Influence, and Enhance, with the Enhance upgrades going all the way down to increasing Brawn. The Move power only has one Strength upgrade, the Influence power has the upgrade that lets me perform mind tricks, and Sense has the first upgrade for committing a die. The character started as a Seer, so neither Niman nor Soresu will get a discount. Stats are 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 2 (Yes, I went for a non-optimal build with the stats. It was deliberate.) Technically, Niman would have the better lightsaber stat, but I'll likely use Enhance mostly during combat. So the big things I'm needing to know about these two trees would be:

Would you rather have Defensive 2, a higher Force Rating, and Sum Djem, or Improved Parry, Improved Reflect, a higher grit, and Supreme Parry?

I would go with Niman. As you said you have a better natural stat for Lightsaber, 3 Force power lets you learn Protect/Unleash which uses Willpower, and adding those 2 extra Setback dice with the 2 Challenge dice upgrades you can get from Sense makes you quite hard to hit in melee. Plus while Niman doesn't have the Improved or Supreme versions it still has a good number of parry and reflect ranks.

Well, keep in mind; you can take the entirety of the good (i.e. GREAT) parts of Soresu without taking it's INT-based Lightsaber Talent. Just gotta go around.

Which would leave 'saber as BRA-based.

Which would leave you able to use Enhance to Upgrade BRA with as many Force die as you're willing to commit (not to mention put Dedication(s) into it).

Which synergizes well with Soaking damage/defense.

Soresu makes you an absolute beast of a Lightsaber combatant.

So it's really a choice between remaining a "Force Wizard", or branching out into Beast Mode.

For what it's worth, I can get FR3 easier through Seer than I would be able to get it from Niman. Niman would just offer the option of FR4 down the line.

40 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Which would leave you able to use Enhance to Upgrade BRA

Yes, it's always a good idea to upgrade your bra. Those straps are painful and can cause series lower back pain if you aren't careful.

1 hour ago, emsquared said:

Well, keep in mind; you can take the entirety of the good (i.e. GREAT) parts of Soresu without taking it's INT-based Lightsaber Talent. Just gotta go around.

You don't have to go around Soresu Technique even if you aren't planning to use it, as it says you MAY use Intellect, not that you have to. (Reasons could include using the two talents that rely on the technique - though you'd still use Int on them - and that it is cheaper to get to Reflect and Improved Parry fast)

4 minutes ago, Darzil said:

You don't have to go around Soresu Technique even if you aren't planning to use it, as it says you MAY use Intellect, not that you have to. (Reasons could include using the two talents that rely on the technique - though you'd still use Int on them - and that it is cheaper to get to Reflect and Improved Parry fast)

Sure, if you're not gonna get Defensive Stance (and don't mind missing out on a Grit and Parry) this is a fine option, otherwise it's wasted xp.

6 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Sure, if you're not gonna get Defensive Stance (and don't mind missing out on a Grit and Parry) this is a fine option, otherwise it's wasted xp.

Just depends on campaign, power level and priorities. Lets you get first rank Parry and Reflect for 25 xp rather than 70 xp. If you want all the Parry and Reflect talents plus Defensive Stance then it is cheapest to avoid it indeed (205 xp vs 195 xp)

Definitely Niman, with Draw Closer you don't need to boost your characteristics to succeed at hitting especially with that potential force Rating. Then if you do miss you can still use Force Assault to use Move as a manoeuvre.

If you want to be less staby staby then a third option is the Arbiter spec from Disciples of Harmony.

Draw Closer is _amazing_. You will not believe how much better you will be in a fight if you don't have to spend turns running just to get close enough to hit them with your saver. You _want_ Niman.

Sum Djem is good too, and can even help you avoid going to the Dark Side. Attacking people with your light-saber can gain you conflict. Attacking them with your saber, getting a Triumph or two Advantages and then saying "I'm disarming him with Sum Djem - which was my plan all along, I'm avoiding conflict." is much less likely to gain you conflict. (Remember, it's a narrative system, roll first and the describe.)

Unless you're really jonesing to have both Improved Parry and Improved Reflect, I'd say go with Niman Disciple.

Soresu Defender looks pretty sweet, but it's very strain heavy and doesn't have a lot of offensive moves outside of attacking with a lightsaber and hoping you can proc Improved Parry or Improved Reflect, which may not always be the case, especially against more capable opponents.

Since the OP is already playing a character that's heavy on Force ability, Niman Disciple's got more to offer, between Draw Closer and Force Assault. It may not have Improved Parry or Improved Reflect, but the spec still has pretty solid defensive options with 3 ranks each of Parry and Reflect and 2 ranks of Defensive Training. Plus it adds some talents to help in social encounters, such as Nobody's Fool and Sense Emotions.

If I wanted improved reflect and improved parry. I would probably grab niman-disciple, sho-chi knight, and sentry. 3 specs, 3 force dice, 3 dedication, 7 ranks of parry, 5 of reflect, 3 ranks of defensive training, all the lightsaber talents are usable with willpower, lightsaber throw, improved lightsaber throw, improved parry, improved reflect, and a lot of other cool stuff.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

If I wanted improved reflect and improved parry. I would probably grab niman-disciple, sho-chi knight, and sentry. 3 specs, 3 force dice, 3 dedication, 7 ranks of parry, 5 of reflect, 3 ranks of defensive training, all the lightsaber talents are usable with willpower, lightsaber throw, improved lightsaber throw, improved parry, improved reflect, and a lot of other cool stuff.

Three more specs past where I am now is getting a bit excessive in XP cost. That's 120 XP, just for the specs themselves. This campaign is starting at base XP, and I'm only looking for one more spec to branch out into for now. My biggest question was whether it's more worth it to have Improved Parry and Improved Reflect, or if it's better to have Defensive Training.

Besides which, if I go with both Soresu and Niman later down the line, then including my Seer spec, I'll have 3 specs, 4 Force dice, 2 dedication, 7 ranks of parry, 6 of reflect, 2 ranks of defensive training, improved parry, improved reflect, supreme reflect, and plenty of neat things to go with it all. Personally, that seems a bit better to me. Sure, Soresu Technique is essentially wasted, but there are a ton of other cool things with Soresu that I'm liking the idea of.

Look at the definition of defensive vs. Deflective... defensive only works against melee attacks. But I think niman-is still better.

If I wanted to build a 2 spec movie quality Jedi knight it would be niman-disciple/sentry in either order, look for yourself what that gets you, but basically it's the only way for a Jedi to mature at the same time as non-force-sensitives.

Defensive training is limited to melee attacks, and can be replicated with certain Sabers or crystals.

Improved Parry/Reflect both rely on your opponent rolling lots of Threat or a Despair, sounds great in practice but unless you can upgrade their dice and add Setback then both get rare use. Sense is the obvious solution, along with a defensive and deflecting Saber (or a shield ) but unless you have a plan you may find them unused. Essentially though it means you're going to be investing in more than just those talents.

Basic Parry and Reflect on the other hand just eat Strain, but require little input. In your case Niman definitely offers the widest options without requiring any one of them

10 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Look at the definition of defensive vs. Deflective... defensive only works against melee attacks. But I think niman-is still better.

If I wanted to build a 2 spec movie quality Jedi knight it would be niman-disciple/sentry in either order, look for yourself what that gets you, but basically it's the only way for a Jedi to mature at the same time as non-force-sensitives.

I'm fully aware of the difference between defensive and deflective. Kind of curious why you're bringing it up. And again, I already have my base spec chosen. It's already in play. I'm playing a Seer. I'm looking for one more spec to go into, and am trying to decide between Niman or Soresu. So your suggestions of going with Niman and Sentry aren't really that helpful.

Regarding building a movie quality Jedi Knight, I can accomplish this with either Niman or Soresu on top of what I already have in Seer. The real important part of making a movie quality Jedi is being able to get FR 3 (Which thanks to Seer, I can do that no matter which lightsaber spec I go with), being able to parry, being able to reflect, and having at least the base power and one upgrade of each Move, Sense, Influence, and Enhance. Sentry on its own does not get me what I'm after for this character, and I do not plan on taking it any time soon.

13 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Defensive training is limited to melee attacks, and can be replicated with certain Sabers or crystals.

Improved Parry/Reflect both rely on your opponent rolling lots of Threat or a Despair, sounds great in practice but unless you can upgrade their dice and add Setback then both get rare use. Sense is the obvious solution, along with a defensive and deflecting Saber (or a shield ) but unless you have a plan you may find them unused. Essentially though it means you're going to be investing in more than just those talents.

Basic Parry and Reflect on the other hand just eat Strain, but require little input. In your case Niman definitely offers the widest options without requiring any one of them

Yeah, I've been thinking on that regarding Improved Parry/Reflect. However, since I'm already planning on giving this character Sense, I figure I'll trigger it at least a couple times a session. I'm also planning on getting the lightsaber crystal that provides defensive/deflection when I get my character's lightsaber. With that in mind, would you suggest Soresu over Niman, or are the two ranks of Defensive Training and Draw Closer more valuable than Improved Parry/Reflect?

9 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

I'm fully aware of the difference between defensive and deflective. Kind of curious why you're bringing it up. And again, I already have my base spec chosen. It's already in play. I'm playing a Seer. I'm looking for one more spec to go into, and am trying to decide between Niman or Soresu. So your suggestions of going with Niman and Sentry aren't really that helpful.

Regarding building a movie quality Jedi Knight, I can accomplish this with either Niman or Soresu on top of what I already have in Seer. The real important part of making a movie quality Jedi is being able to get FR 3 (Which thanks to Seer, I can do that no matter which lightsaber spec I go with), being able to parry, being able to reflect, and having at least the base power and one upgrade of each Move, Sense, Influence, and Enhance. Sentry on its own does not get me what I'm after for this character, and I do not plan on taking it any time soon.

Just making sure you knew from your previous post it seemed a little like you were balancing defensive traing against reflect, which won't help you trigger improved reflect.

13 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Yeah, I've been thinking on that regarding Improved Parry/Reflect. However, since I'm already planning on giving this character Sense, I figure I'll trigger it at least a couple times a session. I'm also planning on getting the lightsaber crystal that provides defensive/deflection when I get my character's lightsaber. With that in mind, would you suggest Soresu over Niman, or are the two ranks of Defensive Training and Draw Closer more valuable than Improved Parry/Reflect?

I think the utility of Niman is better, but with those ideas you already have then Soresu is excellent. I would ask one simple question: Do you think your character is more offensive in personality or more defensive?

Niman is definitely more offensive, the use of Move and draw closer really makes you a powerhouse at dealing with Ranged combatants.

Soresu is the defensive master, especially in melee with Defensive Stance, Sense and 2 Defence your opponent is rolling 3 Challenge and 2 Setback, flip a Destiny for an extra Difficulty and they can hardly hit you.

I personally like Niman, but your the one who knows the inner workings of this character, unfortunately you will need to decide.

9 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

I think the utility of Niman is better, but with those ideas you already have then Soresu is excellent. I would ask one simple question: Do you think your character is more offensive in personality or more defensive?

Niman is definitely more offensive, the use of Move and draw closer really makes you a powerhouse at dealing with Ranged combatants.

Soresu is the defensive master, especially in melee with Defensive Stance, Sense and 2 Defence your opponent is rolling 3 Challenge and 2 Setback, flip a Destiny for an extra Difficulty and they can hardly hit you.

I personally like Niman, but your the one who knows the inner workings of this character, unfortunately you will need to decide.

As a character, he's very non-aggressive. He's mostly a diplomat, having been a philanthropist before being caught up in this crazy adventure. He does everything he can to avoid combat. The party already has two other players who are very offensive.

After all the feedback, I've decided that for now I'll be going with Soresu. Later down the line, after I get certain talents out of Soresu that I'm after, I'll branch out further into Niman, but this won't be until I'm already several hundred XP into the game. Thanks for your input, everyone. I really do appreciate it!