A good way to judge it is to compare several equivalents:

1. Soontir Fel - Royal Guard TIE, Push The Limit, Autothrusters, Stealth Device
2. Blue Ace - BB-8, Primed Thrusters, Integrated Astromech
3. Duchess - Adaptive Ailerons, Veteran Instincts, Lightweight Frame

If people really thought that pure manouvrability won games so effectively as to be a negative experinece foe the other player, people would be complaining endlessly about blue ace - who's stress-free daredevil and ability to talon roll then pull a 90' boost is just insane.

If it was a mix of repositioning and pilot skill, duchess - who has the same repositioning ability as soontir fel, doesn't have to deal with stress (allowing you do use the white moves as well as just green) and has PS10 to give you the edge even over PS9 opponents, for cheaper than Fel, would be public enemy #1

They're not.

This is because the 'aces are unbeatable' feeling only comes where you have repositioning abiltiy and high pilot skill and the ability to rack up massive stacks of green dice and green tokens - a feeling that you've outthought your opponent, got 2 arcs of fire laid on them despite any repositioning actions they might pull....and they go "what's your point?", dodge both attacks and don't even lose their stealth device.

They're not unbeatable - especially with stress tricks (assaj, slicer tools, latts, R3-A2), anti-dice modification tricks (omega leader, crack shot, 4-Lom, homing missiles) - but they can - certainly did at the height of palpatine and his evil dice ju-ju - leave people feeling that whatever you did, the aces got to decide after you acted exactly what they needed to do to avoid any choice you made having been worthwhile.

It's the same issue people had with the "quantum phantom" which retroactively turned out to have decloaked exactly in the right spot to avoid your kill boxes.

The change to the phantom - where you had to plan your decloak - and the change to Palpatine - where you have to commit him before you roll - requires you to excerise a bit of judgement and take some risk, which feels a lot better.

It's the reason I won't complain about bombs and mines. Yes, Sabine is bloody annoying, and I hate K-wings with a passion, but I won't and indeed can't say they are an NPE - they rely, entirely, on your flying (and predicting mine). Winning with them specifically requires you to outfly me; I have only myself to blame.

As noted, they did always have weaknesses, too. A fully tooled up soontir fel was still not massively shootier than, say, a 17 point TIE striker.

The difference between Soontir and some of the recent meta lists comes down to skill level for me. The big problem with the Parattani or Degnar/Fenn or FSR or Triple Jumps is that playing against those lists with a more "normal" list often doesn't feel like you're playing the same game as your opponent.

Soontir can be blocked and his offensive output is pretty weak with just a focus to modify his dice. If I'm up against Soontir and my opponent is constantly arc dodging me, squeezing past my ships and chipping away at my health as I desperately try to get my guns on him my reaction is usually "well played" rather than "what a ****". There's an obvious skill involved in playing arc dodgers well, and usually a pretty severe penalty when you get it wrong so I really don't see the problem. I can accept that Palp changed things a little, since the added insurance for the turns when you did mess up increased the power level quite significantly but even then the list had a weak point that could be exploited since Palp was pretty easy to kill for any decent list.

Current best Arc Dodger in the game is Dengar. 53pt Dengar is super NPE. He has a Turret so he can always shoot. He almost always has TL (K4) and Focus (Expertise) for offence which means he can choose to roll out of arc and sometimes into a 4 dice attack. He does this at PS9.

Fel and Vader are the traditional PS9 Arc dodgers, but when they dodge arcs they might not actually have shots.

I've played the Imperial Arc Dodgers a lot. That's just what I like to play. I've played Vader a lot more than Soontir but I've had massive success with both. So I want to make one thing clear, Arc Dodgers are not finesse like what many people seem to think. It isn't your amazing pilot ability that wins you games (pre anti Arc Dodger tech), your opponent is at your mercy. You choose actions after ships have moved. It doesn't take that much skill to boost and barell roll out of position and to token up. Perhaps there is skill in knowing when to leave, you are flying fragile ships after all, but people should stop talking like Arc Dodging is more finesse than Advanced Slam bombing because it really isn't. Heck if Soontir had a mod he could equip that pinged a damage on the ship he is shooting if he was out of their arc then it would be exactly like Sabine. Oh wait, that is Palpatine.

Yes Arc Dodgers are fun if you are flying them, but they inflate PS Wars, and Iniative bids. One of the worst things about this game is the fact that initiative is set once at the start of the game. In this particular mirror it means one player gets a massive advantage.

As for NPE? Sure being constantly Arc Dodged isn't fun because never shooting isn't fun. But more importantly having squads that never take damage and don't give up MOV is bad. See Rebel Regen, then Palp Aces, then Dengaroo, then Palp Defenders, and now BiggsLowrowski.

I don't think arc-dodging is NPE as it's actually very engaging for both players, trying to get the arc where it can't be dodged, or multiple arcs, or block and fire.

What IS an NPE is bulletproof ships. It's bs when Soontir is bulletproof, it's bs when Ryad is bulletproof, it's bs when Asajj is bulletproof, it's bs when Biggs is bulletproof.

I didn't hear many people complain about Soontir dodging arcs when he was a pain last year, what i heard was people complaining that when you got him in arc he still couldn't get hit because of all the stacking of defensive mods. It turned a game of skill (can I pin the arc dodger down) into one where only one side could really win because even if you catch Soontir in arc you can't hurt him.

I actually have recently played against Soontir Fel with Fenn Rau who has Attani Mindlink and Inaldra with Attani Mindlink, HLC and Pulse Ray Shields, just two Mindlinks is I ever needed, I have tried many times to do more and it seems to be excessive.

I have enjoyed the state of Arc dodgers at the moment. It was still work to get Soontir Fel out of the game, but it was doable with Fenn Rau backed up with focus from Inaldra.

Yeah, the problem isn't arc dodging, it's perfect arc dodging while retaining full offensive mods and getting defensive mods too.

When pre-Palp nerf Palp-Soontir could reliably shrug off four hits by rolling paint on one defense die, we had an NPE.

5 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Not an NPE for me. I'd go so far as to say I think it is one of the more rewarding play styles. Dogfighting is about out flying one's opponent, which arc dodgers are all about.

This is what I love about the game, outmanoeuvring your opponent. This is why I think PWT's should be limited in range or something, no idea what, I am not a developer. But PWT's fly around the board, pew pewing, dodging the odd obstacle, unless your Dash, and then you don't care. They don't need to fly particularly well, keep in range and the green dice will do the rest.

2 hours ago, SOTL said:

I don't think arc-dodging is NPE as it's actually very engaging for both players, trying to get the arc where it can't be dodged, or multiple arcs, or block and fire.

What IS an NPE is bulletproof ships. It's bs when Soontir is bulletproof, it's bs when Ryad is bulletproof, it's bs when Asajj is bulletproof, it's bs when Biggs is bulletproof.

I didn't hear many people complain about Soontir dodging arcs when he was a pain last year, what i heard was people complaining that when you got him in arc he still couldn't get hit because of all the stacking of defensive mods. It turned a game of skill (can I pin the arc dodger down) into one where only one side could really win because even if you catch Soontir in arc you can't hurt him.

This is exactly it! This is what I enjoy about the game, not being shot at. But if I do get shot at, I should expect to take a few hits, not do what SOTL is suggesting.

Losing to traditional ace Arc Dodgers has never bothered me.

TLT, Miranda Bombs, Rey/Finn White Sloops, Rey 4 dice turret shots out of arc at Range 1, Dash HLC, RAC/Kylo, ISTD in all its forms, Fair Ship 2, Dengar White Sloop double pops, Dengar out of arc 3 dice shots or 4 after a BR, Wullfwarro 6 dice shots at 180 R1 or 5 at any 180 range....many of the things I listed actually occur while the opponent is "Arc Dodging" with a high PS high HP ship, they just dont call it an ace...they call it PS10 Nym or PS10 Rey or PS9 Dengar or PS9 Dash...all arc dodgers + mechanics.

So yea Arc Dodgers dont bother me, since ALL ships can arc dodge during the set dials phase.

Arc dodgers are fine if the following conditions hold:

The Arc dodger is not a Turret. Dodging arcs is not very impressive when you can always shoot no matter what. Large based boost makes this ten times worse.

The Arc dodger is not a more efficient jouster than the generics that need to hunt him down. A fully kitted Soontir was more efficient than any generic jouster. X7 Defenders we're worse. That was the problem.

Meet Dengar, he's a turreted jouster with PS9 repositioning.

The main issue with arc-dodgers, and reason they can be seen NPE is that it requires significantly more skill to fly against then, then it requires to fly them yourself.

If your opponent didn't bring turrets or auto-damage, all you really needed to know is how to do your initial approach and understand how wide a barrel-roll is. Everything else is just reactionary movement.

Meanwhile your opponent is required to predict your movement, know how to set up a kill-box, block you or position himself in that one tiny spot where you can't boost/barrel-roll out of arc.

And here lies the problem. Arc-dodgers don't reward good flying as much as they punish lacking skill of your opponent which of course make them incredibly frustrating for new players to fly against.

23 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Meet Dengar, he's a turreted jouster with PS9 repositioning.

At least he doesn't (usually) have boost. But yes, Dengar is probably the worst offender here. He is a swarms worst nightmare. Can't joust him but if you don't you'll lose half your list while trying to chase him down. Unfortunately, the Jumpy nerf that leaked only removed his alpha strike. Dengar will murder swarms just as effectively as he did before.

"Arc dodgers" can be frustrating at times but so long as you feel like you could win if only you out guess and out fly it's all good. That's no longer the case and that's... not good.

5 minutes ago, Duskwalker said:

The main issue with arc-dodgers, and reason they can be seen NPE is that it requires significantly more skill to fly against then, then it requires to fly them yourself.

If your opponent didn't bring turrets or auto-damage, all you really needed to know is how to do your initial approach and understand how wide a barrel-roll is. Everything else is just reactionary movement.

Meanwhile your opponent is required to predict your movement, know how to set up a kill-box, block you or position himself in that one tiny spot where you can't boost/barrel-roll out of arc.

And here lies the problem. Arc-dodgers don't reward good flying as much as they punish lacking skill of your opponent which of course make them incredibly frustrating for new players to fly against.

There's probably some truth to that, at least against weaker players.

When your opponent is good, though, I think the skill-intensiveness flips and it becomes harder to play the arc-dodger than it is the chaser - the stakes are a lot higher for the arc-dodger.

The first few times I played against Soontir it definitely wasn't fun. I tried to set up arcs in a trap and he always took the conservative move, and double repositioned out of danger. It felt like I had to pick my moves while he only had to pick the first half of his moves, and could choose the second half after I had already gone.

As as I got better it was less frustrating and I really started to understand only going for blocks when there was a quality shot backing it up but otherwise being careful to avoid over commuting myself, it became a much more fun matchup, very much a cat and mouse.

It can can be an NPE to play against Soontir, but I really think practice and a mindset can overcome that feeling (which I have not yet been able to overcome for some newer experiences).

I'm going to use this space to try to contribute, instead of the blank double post.

One of the problems this discussion has (and I made the mistake above) is that not everyone is using the same definition of NPE. Negative play experience can mean "I didn't have fun" or "brutal 100% hard counter every time" and we don't always go into the talk with the same expectation.

Quote is still not edit.

1 hour ago, AEIllingworth said:

Quote is still not edit.

Technology's a wonderful thing when it works, innit? I don't know why the forum is set up such that the 'new reply' box is still there whilst the 'edit' box is open; it's just asking for that.

1 hour ago, AEIllingworth said:

As as I got better it was less frustrating and I really started to understand only going for blocks when there was a quality shot backing it up but otherwise being careful to avoid over commuting myself, it became a much more fun matchup, very much a cat and mouse.

It can can be an NPE to play against Soontir, but I really think practice and a mindset can overcome that feeling (which I have not yet been able to overcome for some newer experiences).

4 hours ago, SOTL said:

I don't think arc-dodging is NPE as it's actually very engaging for both players, trying to get the arc where it can't be dodged, or multiple arcs, or block and fire.

What IS an NPE is bulletproof ships. It's bs when Soontir is bulletproof, it's bs when Ryad is bulletproof, it's bs when Asajj is bulletproof, it's bs when Biggs is bulletproof.

I didn't hear many people complain about Soontir dodging arcs when he was a pain last year, what i heard was people complaining that when you got him in arc he still couldn't get hit because of all the stacking of defensive mods. It turned a game of skill (can I pin the arc dodger down) into one where only one side could really win because even if you catch Soontir in arc you can't hurt him.

This. Hunting down something elusive (or, indeed, failing to!) is a challenging, interesting game. Much as we bemoan arc dodgers, there is only so much they can do to shift their position, and usually need to plan their boosts/barrel rolls as part of their dial setting to be used well (even though they can then change the plan on the fly).

I've never felt that bad about watching an ace dance around me. What bugs me out is finally trapping the bugger, and watching three three-dice attacks slide off his evade dice with na'ery a hint of success.

The problem - at the risk of belabouring a point - falls back to the original decision to include turreted primary weapons. Yes, turrets existed prior to this point, but the ion and blaster turret were both range 1-2, and the former could only do 1 damage at a time whilst the latter was token-hungry. In either case, any ship had a spot where soontir could sit where (theoretically) he could shoot you and couldn't be shot back. Being 30+ points and made of wafers was fine, because you could say, politely, "learn to fly better".

As soon as the Falcon appeared, you had ships where it was impossible to get a shot on them without them getting a shot back, and with Luke skywalker/Han, often a better shot than the one you had. Hence TIE interceptors took a real kicking and pretty much stayed on life support until the combination of Royal Guard TIE and Autothrusters let them survive turret fire with a modicum of efficiency.

I dunno what I'd have done given a choice. Given that the Firespray never seemed to attract too much grief, if the Falcon had been a 180, or even 270 degree arc, it might have been easier to deal with.

The problem is that the durability upgrades needed to allow aces and turreted ships to coexist resulted in defences which massively outclassed the ability of generic squads to inflict damage - if you had 4 generic X-wings trying to hunt down soontir, even if you guessed roughly where he was going, at least 1 ship, maybe 2 would probably not have a shot, and with 2-3 high PS aces on the board, a third might well get killed before he shoots....leaving 1 generic to try and punch through 4 dice with an evade token.

Whilst FFG could in theory have done something about this, there are two issues to consider:

1. Generics, by definition, are hard to fix, because they have relatively few slots to attach upgrade cards to, all of which are available to the unique aces currently keeping them off the field, and any upgrade which costs points removes their one innate advantage (numbers) - you don't have to increase the cost of a ship by much to force you to drop a ship from your squad at the swarmy end of life.
2. At least in the early waves, FFG was actively trying to remove swarms as a 'thing' - TIE swarms and heavy fighter groups (especially B-wings) were the first big 'meta' archetypes, and kind of steamrollered the first few waves (pretty much until the TIE Phantom arrived). So from that perspective, the rise of aces of generics was a good thing (it's just that sadly, it was the unique falcon, outrider and decimator pilots, not snubfighter pilots, that did most of the rising)

Recently, things have got better. The ability to field 5 ships with 3-dice attacks, rather than 4, makes a big difference. Furthermore, 5-ship lists with meaningful in-built free action economy on generics (Adaptive Ailerons on Strikers, XX-23 S-Thread Tracers on Vaksai Khiraxz, Co-ordinate on Starkiller Base Pilots).

Def agree that the npe isn't arcdodging as much as your good play being rewarded by bouncing off perfect ******* green dice

Or vice versa when you engineer a scenario where you're only get shot by one 3 dice primary at range 3 while you got all your mods and you STILL take damage

Green dice suck

8 hours ago, Brunas said:

Was Soontir a NPE?

Nope. I think the whole term 'NPE' is mostly thrown around by people who don't like losing, adapting or letting go of their favourite build. Yes, things have been overpowered from time to time, and the nerf bat has duly been swung, but it's still a game of toy spaceships, and not to be taken too seriously...

If it isn't fun anymore, stop playing and give me your ships

RoV

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Def agree that the npe isn't arcdodging as much as your good play being rewarded by bouncing off perfect ******* green dice

Or vice versa when you engineer a scenario where you're only get shot by one 3 dice primary at range 3 while you got all your mods and you STILL take damage

Green dice suck

Come on now, you all know the words:

• Soontir Fel
• At Range 3
• Through An Obstacle
• With An Evade Token
• And A Focus Token
• With Autothrusters

One hit through, you say?

Critical, you say?

Major Explosion, you say?

Direct Hit, you say?

...Well, Go [Censored] Yourself With The Pointy End Of A TIE Phantom, Then, Sir!

The big issue I had with Fel was that it was too easy for him to survive even when caught out. So, I predicted him properly, funneled him through the rocks, and caught him in the best killbox I could. Maybe I even blocked him. Now I hit him with the shots I've got, and I get 3 3-die attacks through, maybe one's at range 3 or out of arc.

He uses Palp and autothrusters, and only has to roll a little above average to pull through entirely unscathed, worse if he got his actions.

Arc dodging isn't the issue. Being invulnerable is.

Props to TheZackMathews for discussing "bad engagement dodging", even briefly. That's why I've always liked fast ships, but I'm not really an arc-dodging player.

44 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

. Hence TIE interceptors took a real kicking and pretty much stayed on life support until the combination of Royal Guard TIE and Autothrusters let them survive turret fire with a modicum of efficiency.

Crazy showerthought I had while reading your post:

What if Autothrusters were an action?

The reasoning is that choices are interesting. Actions are interesting. My ideal fix for interceptors is not to beef them up on offense or defense. Instead I'd want to get more choices. The moments where you realize you took the correct or wrong action and you could have taken the wrong/correct one are great in my opinion. So I'd rather have more of them than less.

In that regard and for Interceptors I'd rather get a free PTL and make autothrusters into an action.

I remember in teaching the game to friends and family that the biggest feedback was helplessness in arc dodging. It was tough for new players in that meta to take their turn and wait to find out Soontir was going to dodge out of the arc and wait to spring the inevitable trap when people got frustrated and went after the shuttle. Most games out there competing with Xwing have mechanics where you get a chance to "attack" back or move and shoot on your activation. Still other miniatures games are "mission" based such as Kings of War, Infinity etc. where killing your opponents troops is just one aspect of the game and rarely an outright victory condition.

The victory condition in Xwing is to shoot down your opponent's ships. If you are denied that opportunity to shoot for most of the game, you deny the other player any chance whatsoever of having a chance to win. Even games like 40k with an almost equally strong IP the occasional lasgun could bring down a Terminator or a Warcaster could be assassinated with the last few units in Warmachine to clutch victory from the jaws of defeat.