2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Question for the Krayts Krew:

I noticed during your "list of newish ships that are good" segment, one of the hosts mentioned TIE Strikers being good, both the uniques and the generics. I don't really disagree with this, but I've just never heard anyone talk about it, and I was curious about your reasons.

I really like the Strikers, personally, but that doesn't usually mean much for a ship's popularity. They have great speed, great offense for the points, and the ability to do some crazy maneuvers, but the number of people I've met that think they're worthwhile is very small. At face value, they are weak to turrets, have low durability, and tend to lack re-rolls on their attack dice (a criminal trait according to most). I'm just wondering why the whole Krayt gang thinks they're solid.

Oh, that was me. It's funny, because I think the striker is solid, but has a list building problem - you couldn't really make a list that used one, because they're all in the 20-25 points range which makes listbuilding awkward for imperials.

Basically, if you were using one, you were using a lot, because there aren't really two ships you'd want to take with one at about 48 points each, but now that the aggressor is around that might not be the case anymore. You can run, for instance:

Sienar Specialist (17)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Sienar Specialist (17)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Lightweight Frame (2)

"Pure Sabacc" (22)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Total: 100

Or countdown and mix some things up, or whatever. Before it was hard to even play them, because nothing good for imperials was in the 25ish points range, at least imo.

16 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Or countdown and mix some things up, or whatever. Before it was hard to even play them, because nothing good for imperials was in the 25ish points range, at least imo.

Does Omega Leader's 26 points not count there?

Just now, Biophysical said:

Does Omega Leader's 26 points not count there?

Oh it does for sure, but then we're stuck with about 50 points let for imperials which is super awkward. For example, looking at strikers at worlds, there's a few sabacc and really fat "ace" lists, but the most successful was:

Omicron Group Pilot + Collision Detector + Emperor Palpatine
Countdown
Pure Sabacc + Lightweight Frame + Veteran Instincts
Omega Leader + Juke + Comm Relay

There's a few Whisper + striker + defender/ace in there, or SF + striker + defender, but in general trying to fit 4 25-ish points meant taking 2+ strikers, and I'm not sure they're THAT good

4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Oh it does for sure, but then we're stuck with about 50 points let for imperials which is super awkward. For example, looking at strikers at worlds, there's a few sabacc and really fat "ace" lists, but the most successful was:

Omicron Group Pilot + Collision Detector + Emperor Palpatine
Countdown
Pure Sabacc + Lightweight Frame + Veteran Instincts
Omega Leader + Juke + Comm Relay

There's a few Whisper + striker + defender/ace in there, or SF + striker + defender, but in general trying to fit 4 25-ish points meant taking 2+ strikers, and I'm not sure they're THAT good

I've been interested in possibilities for 3x Trainees or Scarif Defenders. You leave off Lightweight Frame and you can get 3 3-dice guns for 51 or 54 points.

9 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I've been interested in possibilities for 3x Trainees or Scarif Defenders. You leave off Lightweight Frame and you can get 3 3-dice guns for 51 or 54 points.

Can also leave on frames and run an expertise/PA/LWF/FCS/Cruise Missile quickdraw and still have a point of bid

I think 3x generic striker + whatever they're escorting could be solid. Adds a good firepower:beef ratio to a lot of lists that struggle with that.

1 hour ago, Tbetts94 said:

Soontir isn't an NPE for me because I could block him and he dies. Any list can use that tactic, however, Fenn Rau you have to block every ship in the list for him to not have a token and you gotta do it at Range 2. Not all lists can do that. Oh and he's 3 points cheaper and has an extra Hull.

Alas he ain't arc dodging much even when left unblocked because he is not doing double repositioning at all. Still he seems to get more hate than Soontir … at least after people started to realize that getting shots does not help when they get annihilated by the offensive power of Fenn Rau. Sure, you have an easier time to do at least some damage, meanwhile Fenn Rau has a reasonable chance to one-shot a lot of ships.

Or in other words, Soontir does normally just 3 hits on a R1 shot, meanwhile Fenn does 4.7. One is manageable, no matter if you use token staking, regen or C3PO to deal with it, the other becomes basically unavoidable. And unlike Soontir, Fenn will usually not yield when getting in a R1 joust, so you feel the pain, while you just think that Soontir is stupid when he arc dodges you and misses his own shot because of that.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

Question for the Krayts Krew:

I noticed during your "list of newish ships that are good" segment, one of the hosts mentioned TIE Strikers being good, both the uniques and the generics. I don't really disagree with this, but I've just never heard anyone talk about it, and I was curious about your reasons.

I really like the Strikers, personally, but that doesn't usually mean much for a ship's popularity. They have great speed, great offense for the points, and the ability to do some crazy maneuvers, but the number of people I've met that think they're worthwhile is very small. At face value, they are weak to turrets, have low durability, and tend to lack re-rolls on their attack dice (a criminal trait according to most). I'm just wondering why the whole Krayt gang thinks they're solid.

I know I'm not a Krayt (until I do something good/terrible enough that they claim me) but I can give a bit of an opinion.

The title gives reactive movement changes, which have always been walking the line of too good. Duchess has the PS to maybe compete. Countdown always lives at least one shot more than he should have. The gem is Pure Sabacc. He is a missile, front loaded damage that is a bigger threat than his points.

The Purest of Sabaccs either gets a 4-5 die attack from a low 20 point ship, or he is Biggs. Either way he is at least pretty good.

I have a seperate working theory evaluating maneuver dials, involving the amount of total rotation a ship can get over sequential turns and minimum and maximum distance traveled. They have no trouble moving a great distance while turning 135 degrees every turn. A one bank to three bank followed by barrel roll out, or a one bank to one hard to barrel roll in hit consistent extremes of rotation, staying in the same place, and moving a great distance.

The Striker is neat because it is super manueverable but does NOT sacrifice mods to be so (ala generic interceptors and As) and it isn't horribly overcosted

Course I won't touch it because **** four hull when your only defense is green dice

Except for countdown. Dude's cool in my book

[Sorry for the rant, it's too late around here]

I think Acewing could have been awesome.

Let's say turrets had only a mobile firing arc (no primary arc, maybe something for torpedoes/missiles) and with a core outmaneuver mechanic. And then reduce the base attack of several arcdodgers like Interceptors and Phantom. No Autothrusters needed, no/less red dice creep, maybe a cap at 6 - but just rarely 5 red dice, 4 mostly by ordnance or range 1. Arcdodgers with 2 reds. Vader doesn't need ATC, Interceptors don't need Royal Guard, A-Wings don't need Test Pilot. They all just want to outmaneuver and dodge the enemy arc.

Think about it - a true option to gain a superior position that hurts. But in turn this allows the turret player to dial in a maneuver + turn the turret for the position where he expects the ace. Because let's face it - we'll use a green 2 hard, then boost close and roll out, or first roll out if we're too close initially. It's not rocket science. Unless you want to mindgame each other, which would be awesome!

Some of my best games were when I could dodge arc an /SFs or Ghost for several turns. The SF got me at some point by dialing in a maneuver that I simply did not think to be possible. The Ghost tried to eject the Shuttle to block me and barely missed the block. The former won, the latter didn't. But both situations were nailbiters for both players.

1 hour ago, AEIllingworth said:

I know I'm not a Krayt (until I do something good/terrible enough that they claim me) but I can give a bit of an opinion.

The title gives reactive movement changes, which have always been walking the line of too good. Duchess has the PS to maybe compete. Countdown always lives at least one shot more than he should have. The gem is Pure Sabacc. He is a missile, front loaded damage that is a bigger threat than his points.

The Purest of Sabaccs either gets a 4-5 die attack from a low 20 point ship, or he is Biggs. Either way he is at least pretty good.

I have a seperate working theory evaluating maneuver dials, involving the amount of total rotation a ship can get over sequential turns and minimum and maximum distance traveled. They have no trouble moving a great distance while turning 135 degrees every turn. A one bank to three bank followed by barrel roll out, or a one bank to one hard to barrel roll in hit consistent extremes of rotation, staying in the same place, and moving a great distance.

I agree. This is pretty much why I think they're good. For whatever reason I don't hear it echoed all that often, though.

2 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Alas he ain't arc dodging much even when left unblocked because he is not doing double repositioning at all. Still he seems to get more hate than Soontir … at least after people started to realize that getting shots does not help when they get annihilated by the offensive power of Fenn Rau. Sure, you have an easier time to do at least some damage, meanwhile Fenn Rau has a reasonable chance to one-shot a lot of ships.

Or in other words, Soontir does normally just 3 hits on a R1 shot, meanwhile Fenn does 4.7. One is manageable, no matter if you use token staking, regen or C3PO to deal with it, the other becomes basically unavoidable. And unlike Soontir, Fenn will usually not yield when getting in a R1 joust, so you feel the pain, while you just think that Soontir is stupid when he arc dodges you and misses his own shot because of that.

I agree with all of this. Now, I never hated Soontir because he would Arc dodge me. I would hate him because the "pointless" shots. I never truly hated hated him though because like I said I could block him and make shots that weren't pointless. That's impossible versus Fenn. Current Fenn could even get blocked and have a Focus for offense and defense with Inaldrattani now.

57 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

I agree with all of this. Now, I never hated Soontir because he would Arc dodge me. I would hate him because the "pointless" shots. I never truly hated hated him though because like I said I could block him and make shots that weren't pointless. That's impossible versus Fenn. Current Fenn could even get blocked and have a Focus for offense and defense with Inaldrattani now.

Which is why I reserve my hate for Attanni, not Fenn. A PtL Fenn you can block and shred. I've done it to my opponents, and I've had opponents do it to me. A Fenn with the ridiculously stupid get out of jail free card that is Attanni just kind of laughs at you.

Flying against arc dodging aces is not very fun, though I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say it's a NPE.

As someone who mainly flys jousting lists with low to mid PS ships it can be very frustrating playing against lists with arc dodging aces in them, especially when there's 2, 3 or even 4 of them.

The main reasons have been said well by others in this thread, but basically it's the fact that since they move last and can reposition, or often double reposition, they can avoid many if not all of your firing arcs most turns. And even if you DO keep them in arc, they can shrug off attacks thanks to combinations of high agility, multiple focus and/or evade tokens, auto thrusters, or palp. Even chasing them so they can't fire back doesn't work either as your shots will mostly be at range 3, and often obstructed as well giving the defender even MORE of an advantage.

Now obviously there are many direct counters in the game, bombs being the most common at the moment. Auto blaster turrets are pretty common too. But not all ships have access to these counters, and it's not always worth investing in them as you might not face any arc dodgers.

1 hour ago, markcsoul said:

Flying against arc dodging aces is not very fun, though I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say it's a NPE.

As someone who mainly flys jousting lists with low to mid PS ships it can be very frustrating playing against lists with arc dodging aces in them, especially when there's 2, 3 or even 4 of them.

The main reasons have been said well by others in this thread, but basically it's the fact that since they move last and can reposition, or often double reposition, they can avoid many if not all of your firing arcs most turns. And even if you DO keep them in arc, they can shrug off attacks thanks to combinations of high agility, multiple focus and/or evade tokens, auto thrusters, or palp. Even chasing them so they can't fire back doesn't work either as your shots will mostly be at range 3, and often obstructed as well giving the defender even MORE of an advantage.

Now obviously there are many direct counters in the game, bombs being the most common at the moment. Auto blaster turrets are pretty common too. But not all ships have access to these counters, and it's not always worth investing in them as you might not face any arc dodgers.

Palp does not count, because you are attacking Palp first and thus no Palp when shooting aces.
Multiple Focus token is afaik an Soontir exclusive. Attani does not count, because those are not double reposition arc dodging aces, actually Protectorate Fighters are R1 jousters. ;-)
High-agility is true and so are the autothrusters.

Still, neither focus nor autothrusters should trigger on a proper block. which leaves them wide open to damage. And mid-ps jousting lists …
… now that seems to be the top list in the current meta: Fair Ships Rebels and Fair Ship Rebels 2.0.

I am not sure the classic Palp aces, even with old Palp would stand a chance against that at all. It most certainly does not look unfair to me, I actually would like to fly against that with imperial arc dodgers.

Back on the day we used to talk about people getting a "Soontiring." Kelvan had a hilarious early game on where he wiped out everything but Soontir, and the proceeded to get solo'd by just The Baron. He was NOT a happy pirate lord. Sometime after that Morgan solo'd Dom's Vader and two Tempests after Dom took out everything else. That game was an epic five hour affair. Later we introduced a 19 turn move limit in Vassal League :/

So yeah getting arc dodged can be painful. But you learn how to block him. Blair had a number of illustrative games with B-Wings and Bandits where beautifully blocked and killed Soontir by covering all the greens. This was the good old days when blocking an ace actually worked (looking at you, Fenn)!

8 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

The Striker is neat because it is super manueverable but does NOT sacrifice mods to be so (ala generic interceptors and As) and it isn't horribly overcosted

Course I won't touch it because **** four hull when your only defense is green dice

Except for countdown. Dude's cool in my book

I find they're tough enough. Which is not the same as tough - it means just solid enough that they tend not to be one-shotted like 'normal' TIE fighters - even a 4-dice attack will generally miss one red die or get one evade or focus on the green dice. That's enough to force a second ship to shoot, which in a world where people often have only two ships is rather irritating.

The extra hull is also rather satisfying against the Twin Laser Turret brigade, who can't score critical damage. Of cource, Miranda Doni and Accuracy Correctors throwing 2-dice TLT shots is deeply irritating.

But yes, Countdown's awesome. Even more so with Captain Yorr in tow, so you can use his ability repeatedly. I've seen the guy fly through a range 1 pass from two fearlessness protectorates, look back, and tut that he's going to have to have the paintwork seen to....

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I find they're tough enough. Which is not the same as tough - it means just solid enough that they tend not to be one-shotted like 'normal' TIE fighters - even a 4-dice attack will generally miss one red die or get one evade or focus on the green dice. That's enough to force a second ship to shoot, which in a world where people often have only two ships is rather irritating.

That's kind of how I feel now. It hurts when they die, because they feel like real ships, but the generics are typically 20 or less, which is firmly in expendable territory. Between the speed and firepower, though, they can get work done.

I want to take some to Gencon, but I'm not all that sure they're really primetime ready, and I'm afraid I may think they're better than they are.

On 8/7/2017 at 1:24 AM, Brunas said:

Hi forums, I try to keep our stuff pretty separate to not spam unless we have actual content you'll want, but in this case I need something from you!

You too much in love with dat MARYJANE...

Sounds like a bunch of ninth graders in your grandmas garage... round back.

Anyhow NAH: Nothing wrong with acr dodgers or primary weapon turrets... it's fine. Kinda needs to be in there to represent an actual real battle don't you know...kids. Of course not.

So i relistened to the episode, I've been super busy with life so it took me a minute to get here.

We kinda stumbled upon the soontir question shortly before recording, and i didn't have a ton of time to articulate what my gut was telling me. I'm not the smart one after all, but i think I've got a better way of expressing my thoughts on how arc dodgers can render an npe.

At some point, often when you have more ships on the board an arc dodger can completely end a players perception of thier efficacy. If a ships don't have the dial to extend and block, or the firepower to punch through a soontir, you get to a very real position where you're no longer relevant in your own game. I always bring tools to combat soontir so i never have a negative play experience against him, but its a hole a player can find themselves in.