The first time a saw it, it was in the PC game Star Wars Rebellion (1998). I used it a lot when I was playing the Empire against the Reb's squadron force.

2 hours ago, DOMSWAT911 said:

Just in case, when I'm talking about the Lancer Class Frigate, I'm talking about this ship

Yep. That's the one I was referring to as well, only with a preference for the fan-based "angry space triangle."
Speaking of, there is something to be said for an over-reaching design ethic to the Empire. No matter what corner of space you're in, the moment you see that silhouette drop out of hyperspace, or fade into view out of the black, you know in your bones who has found you.

2 hours ago, DOMSWAT911 said:

Just in case, when I'm talking about the Lancer Class Frigate, I'm talking about this ship

Goes great with Space Balls.

3 hours ago, DOMSWAT911 said:

Just in case, when I'm talking about the Lancer Class Frigate, I'm talking about this ship

Oh ya, sorry i pulled the thread off topic. just random thought after seeing the other persons post about the squad.

12 hours ago, Forresto said:

Except besides the Vivtory and ISD the other Imperial triangle ships looks absolutely nothing alike besides that basic triangular form.

This is what I was thinking. I mean, maybe you could throw the Interdictor in with that lot - it's kinda close, sort of. But pretty distinctive, still.

(And the Victory-class is an anomaly, anyway. FFG included that in the core set of the game before Disney's takeover effectively all-but-bumped the ship from canon. It was certainly one of WEG's lazier designs - 'here, let's take this preproduction sketch of an early draft of a Star Destroyer and make it its own class of ship...' Ideally, with the canon reset, there would have been no Victory-class at all...the early Empire just using Gozanti-, Arquitens-, Acclamator-, and Venator- class ships that were veterans of the Clone Wars until the newer designs were finished.)

12 hours ago, xanderf said:

This is what I was thinking. I mean, maybe you could throw the Interdictor in with that lot - it's kinda close, sort of. But pretty distinctive, still.

(And the Victory-class is an anomaly, anyway. FFG included that in the core set of the game before Disney's takeover effectively all-but-bumped the ship from canon. It was certainly one of WEG's lazier designs - 'here, let's take this preproduction sketch of an early draft of a Star Destroyer and make it its own class of ship...' Ideally, with the canon reset, there would have been no Victory-class at all...the early Empire just using Gozanti-, Arquitens-, Acclamator-, and Venator- class ships that were veterans of the Clone Wars until the newer designs were finished.)

I believe that the Vic is in some of the new cannon novels. Same as the Carracks class cruiser and Immobilizer 418 interdictor are (via the Tarkin novel IIRC). Many of the old legends ships are slowly trickling back into canon this way. I can not say for 100% certainty that the Vic has, but I'm pretty sure.

2 minutes ago, Salted Diamond said:

I believe that the Vic is in some of the new cannon novels. Same as the Carracks class cruiser and Immobilizer 418 interdictor are (via the Tarkin novel IIRC). Many of the old legends ships are slowly trickling back into canon this way. I can not say for 100% certainty that the Vic has, but I'm pretty sure.

The Victory-class got a name drop, only - IIRC, it was when Tarkin was visiting some base in the novel 'Tarkin' that it was mentioned the base was a prefab garrison deployed by a Victory-class ship during the Clone Wars.

But I'm by and large not counting such blink-and-you-miss-it references, particularly by book authors attempting to sneak things back into the franchise. And ESPECIALLY so since, in book form, a class name has no meaning. IE., a 'Victory-class Star Destroyer' might just as easily (in the new canon) be a variant of the Venators...

46 minutes ago, xanderf said:

The Victory-class got a name drop, only - IIRC, it was when Tarkin was visiting some base in the novel 'Tarkin' that it was mentioned the base was a prefab garrison deployed by a Victory-class ship during the Clone Wars.

But I'm by and large not counting such blink-and-you-miss-it references, particularly by book authors attempting to sneak things back into the franchise. And ESPECIALLY so since, in book form, a class name has no meaning. IE., a 'Victory-class Star Destroyer' might just as easily (in the new canon) be a variant of the Venators...

I mean, I see your point. But the Holocron and the Lucasfilm oversight is 100% committed to the fact that if its even so much as name-dropped, its Canon .

Sneaking things back in won't happen. Every reference has to be vetted.

I do agree, we do need more information on them, for sure - but they've also said that things named after old things are the old things new again, until told otherwise .

20 hours ago, DOMSWAT911 said:

Just in case, when I'm talking about the Lancer Class Frigate, I'm talking about this ship

Yep, the Lancer Frigate is beautiful, even in that model, which was made within the limitations of an 18 year old game.

I have no idea why the OP is comparing that fanon ship to the Lancer, since they clearly have nothing in common. Anyway if the Lancer was in the game, I guess it would use black and blue dice, since it was armed with quad lasers (same as the Falcon).

Anyway, as has been said, there are many more manufacturers in the galaxy than just KDY and SFS, so there should be lots of them that produce for the Empire and do not make Dorritos and TIEs. And even a single manufacturer can have multiple design philosophies. If you can't keep a few space ships straight just because they aren't triangles, might need to pick up a memory training game. :-P

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Sneaking things back in won't happen. Every reference has to be vetted.

While I'd like to believe that's true, the general spelling and grammar that is arriving in the 'new canon' books is teeth-grindingly bad enough that it wouldn't surprise me the person approving a novel saw 'Victory-class' and read it as 'Venator-class' in the middle of an otherwise-dry paragraph and moved on.

That ship, particularly, having literally only a single (passing) reference in one novel, and no references in any other 'canon' novel before or since...really makes me think it was a 'mistake' that got past the editors and nothing more. (Especially since James Luceno has been vocal about getting as much from the old EU back into canon as he can manage)

1 hour ago, Knightcrawler said:

Yep, the Lancer Frigate is beautiful, even in that model, which was made within the limitations of an 18 year old game.

I have no idea why the OP is comparing that fanon ship to the Lancer, since they clearly have nothing in common. Anyway if the Lancer was in the game, I guess it would use black and blue dice, since it was armed with quad lasers (same as the Falcon).

Beauty being in the eye of the beholder.
Kind of the whole reason I said I preferred the design of the fan ship over the design of the Lancer, and that if the Lancer class was brought to Armada, I'd prefer they used the fan design to make a model of it rather than the West End Games design. As for nothing in common, did you miss the numerous AA guns? Just like a Lancer would have?

Side note: Several folks have pointed out that the Empire should be flooded with designs of various makes, but I'll challenge this idea.
We're talking about a Galaxy wide power where a single design can be sent to shipyards all across the Empire and cranked out by the hundreds of thousands. In a very real respect, there isn't time to develop alternate designs. It isn't like our world where it takes 7 years to build a single ship of the line (nuclear carrier) and then you start the next one, working in replacement patches for now obsolete technology due to new developments before third hull is even under construction. Someone comes up with a better design in the Empire, you've likely already got 10 or 15 thousand ships already built. With something so massive, it really makes more sense to just halt the assembly lines, load the new design, and crank out the new model to replace the ones you were literally just building yesterday.
I would propose this theory is born out by the films. I've read that RotS occurs a mere 3 years after AotC yet the Republic, which was only just debating even creating a military 3 short years ago, now has massive fleets of both starships and fighters -- of what, about a half-dozen designs?
Now sure, you can argue that this will change as new toy commercials -- er, I mean movies -- are made, altering old cannon and enshrining new to make the original Star Wars Galaxy into something it wasn't; but at the moment, I think my theory works.

I'm under the impression that the empire constantly puts out triangles because the design is (in universe) the most efficient for controlling a sector or system of space. Pulling from the novel Thrawn here, where he argues to the Emperor that the Death Star, or any massive station, is a tremendous waste of resources for the empire when they've already put out Imperial class destroyers, which Thrawn describes as the perfect ship for the empire's mission.

They're designed to enforce control of a system with some support ships and maybe a few corvettes, all commanded from a single Imperial class. Occasionally the empire would throw more than one Imperial at a particularly nasty problem, but the firepower, ground troops and fighters carried by a single Imperial was considered enough to control most systems.

I could be misremembering, but I do recall Thrawn stating his displeasure with the Death Star project as a waste of resources that would be infinitely more useful for construction of more star destroyers.

Given the now (as far as I know) non-canon description of the Star Destroyer, I agree. From what I read, the guns were arranged in pairs down each of the sides, alternating between ventral and dorsal hulls. This allowed the ship to turn 50% of it's total firepower toward ventral, dorsal, port, and starboard targets, while unleashing a full 100% of it's firepower on any target in front of it (making the safest place to be behind the **** thing). The wide placement of the majority of guns also meant the fighters could launch in the midst of a pitched battle completely clear of the lines of fire.
Like the design or hate it, it does make it something you don't want to be in front of.

Granted, this description doesn't exactly mesh with the obvious 8 cannon mounts on the upper hull superstructure of the SD...but Star Wars is full of contradictions.

On 8/8/2017 at 2:35 PM, Arowmund said:

Beauty being in the eye of the beholder.
Kind of the whole reason I said I preferred the design of the fan ship over the design of the Lancer, and that if the Lancer class was brought to Armada, I'd prefer they used the fan design to make a model of it rather than the West End Games design. As for nothing in common, did you miss the numerous AA guns? Just like a Lancer would have?

Side note: Several folks have pointed out that the Empire should be flooded with designs of various makes, but I'll challenge this idea.
We're talking about a Galaxy wide power where a single design can be sent to shipyards all across the Empire and cranked out by the hundreds of thousands. In a very real respect, there isn't time to develop alternate designs. It isn't like our world where it takes 7 years to build a single ship of the line (nuclear carrier) and then you start the next one, working in replacement patches for now obsolete technology due to new developments before third hull is even under construction. Someone comes up with a better design in the Empire, you've likely already got 10 or 15 thousand ships already built. With something so massive, it really makes more sense to just halt the assembly lines, load the new design, and crank out the new model to replace the ones you were literally just building yesterday.
I would propose this theory is born out by the films. I've read that RotS occurs a mere 3 years after AotC yet the Republic, which was only just debating even creating a military 3 short years ago, now has massive fleets of both starships and fighters -- of what, about a half-dozen designs?
Now sure, you can argue that this will change as new toy commercials -- er, I mean movies -- are made, altering old cannon and enshrining new to make the original Star Wars Galaxy into something it wasn't; but at the moment, I think my theory works.

You prefer a "different version of the Lancer?" One that has no WEG influences? That's... unfortunate, since the Lancer Frigate originated with the WEG RPG. There is no Lancer except the Lancer of WEG. It's like saying this is your favorite TIE Defender rendition, because you don't like the way the TIE Defender is depicted in the "TIE Fighter" video game:

There can be other Imperial anti-starfighter starships in Star Wars. In fact, there is at least one that is unquestionably in that role: The Tartan. It's way uglier than the Lancer and a bit smaller, but FFG can design a new one if they want to. I kind of saw the Raider as similar in role to the Tartan, but I guess it's more generalized, like a CR-90. The point is if you want an elongated rhombic pyramid anti-starfighter ship, just give it its own name and backstory.

I know it can be easy to think poorly about the WEG games. I've never played them, so I don't know how good they are. But they were one of the earliest sources of expanded universe material in Star Wars. Before that was... Star Wars: Holiday Special (which was de-canonized and disavowed almost immediately), the Doids and Ewoks cartoon shows, the Marvel comics, the Star Tours ride, and 7 books (Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the Han Solo trilogy, the Lando Calrissian trilogy). That's it, as far as I know. WEG originated so much Star Wars content that we take for granted today. In fact, the Armada core game set comes with a WEG ship. This is all to say that the WEG RPG is foundational to Star Wars EU content and the Star Wars community at large. Saying that non-triangular Imperial ships isn't supported in Star Wars is more extreme than saying Thrawn isn't supported in Star Wars.

The Attack of the Clones => Revenge of the Sith example is pretty moot. First of all, there was variety in their ships. ARC-170s, V-19 Torrents, Alpha-3 Nimbus (V-Wings), Delta-7s, Eta-2s, Y-Wings, Z-95 Headhunters, LAATs, and HAET-221s. Even the Wookiee Fluttercraft was a Republic vehicle. And that's only looking at one side of the war. Yeah the really big ships are going to be made by the really powerful manufacturers/really experienced designers, and they are a bigger investment during a time when the Republic is strained, so there will be fewer of them. But the Lancer isn't big and the Empire isn't strained.

As for the argument that "there is no time to develop anything other than a Star Destroyer," there are a lot of holes there. The Empire had tens of thousands or more developed worlds, with thousands of species and unique cultures; lots of those are going to have their own universities, shipwrights, and the like. There are going to be lots of people throughout the universe whose job it is to design starships - lots more than it takes to design the ISD. These people are going to keep on doing their job as long as they can, and most of them would love to get their design accepted by the Galactic Empire so they can get a lucrative contract with them. Star Wars is based mostly around WWII, and during that time, many different companies became involved in created war material and chased after government contracts. Additionally, the GE isn't going to hand out their ISD designs to anything but the most secure and "loyal" shipyards... but those smaller shipyards are going to want to produce stuff, all the same. And they're going to want to produce something that makes them valuable. There is considerable value in doing something that's different.

Finally, the Empire, like any good corrupt government, gives great power and leeway to Moffs and other local governors. These high-ranking or rich officials have enough wealth at their disposal to pursue their own technologies. Again, in the earliest pieces of Star Wars EU, the Han Solo trilogy, Han Solo travels to Corporate Sector (which is part of the current canon). There, large corporations make a ton of money for the Empire and in exchange the Empire allows them to operate with very few regulations (slavery, stripmining, etc. are legal). The Corporate Sector Authority has its very own starship designs, but is an Imperial faction. This is one of the more exciting parts of Star Wars - the galaxy is so vast and wonderful that you never know what strange new stuff you'll see next. If you take that away, the universe gets a lot less interesting. Yes the GE is a unifying force, but there are plenty of reasons to still have some variety.

Lastly, the rhombic pyramid design of Star Destroyers is really smart in that it allows them to concentrate all of their firepower on a single target (if it drops its angle of attack a little bit, because there are flat elements where the guns would get in each-others' way) and additionally, sloped armor is much more effective against frontal attacks. However there is no such thing as design that's perfect at everything. The ISD is the Empire's mainline capital ship because it's large enough to act independently and challenge almost any single enemy ship (or most planets) and versatile enough to perform any mission (deploy prefab bases, line combat, hunt pirates, coordinate construction, etc.). The ISD is the "ultimate" tool for the Empire because it can meet and exceed almost any challenge... at least it was until the Rebellion come into force. The ISD's shape is great for head-on engagements and line combat, but not so great at other things. One of the things the Star Destroyer design is bad at is... anti-starfighter duty. Starfighters move too quickly to keep them in your front arc. Instead, the Star Destroyer shape just presents a glaring weakness for starfighters to exploit: they can fire almost none of their weapons to aft. Why would you build a Star Destroyer anti-starfighter platform when starfighters are ideally suited to defeating it, then? Lancers not only can fire plenty of their weapons to aft, but they also mount each quad laser cannon on its own pylon to give each gun a superior field of view/fire against starfighters, resulting in more guns on target than with a Star Destroyer design.

As for Thrawn saying the ISD is perfect... well I covered a lot of that above. However, Thrawn's talent lies in his incredible resourcefulness. Some of the ships he used most iconically are the Dreadnaught and Shieldship, which are not Star Destroyers at all. Thrawn sees the advantages and disadvantages of everything on every side, and plays to all his strengths. Thrawn saw the Death Star as a waste of resources that would be more effectively used in the construction of versatile ISDs. And he may have had an ulterior motive of not wanting a planet-killer to be constructed as he prefers to assimilate rather than to completely destroy. He knew that a weapon like the Death Star would end up being used, which would result in the destruction of potential resources (cultures, species, designs, people) that he would rather gather, use, and enjoy himself.

/novel

If that all came off as aggressive or mean, that was not my intention. We can all have our own opinions, and all that. Just arguing my points. Yay internet! :-P

*Edit*

I kept writing "triangular prism" in my post, but the shape is actually a rhombic pyamid. My bad. Editing imstances in my post.

On 8/10/2017 at 10:16 PM, Knightcrawler said:

You prefer a "different version of the Lancer?" One that has no WEG influences? That's... unfortunate, since the Lancer Frigate originated with the WEG RPG. There is no Lancer except the Lancer of WEG. It's like saying this is your favorite TIE Defender rendition, because you don't like the way the TIE Defender is depicted in the "TIE Fighter" video game:

There can be other Imperial anti-starfighter starships in Star Wars. In fact, there is at least one that is unquestionably in that role: The Tartan. It's way uglier than the Lancer and a bit smaller, but FFG can design a new one if they want to. I kind of saw the Raider as similar in role to the Tartan, but I guess it's more generalized, like a CR-90. The point is if you want an elongated rhombic pyramid anti-starfighter ship, just give it its own name and backstory.

I know it can be easy to think poorly about the WEG games. I've never played them, so I don't know how good they are. But they were one of the earliest sources of expanded universe material in Star Wars. Before that was... Star Wars: Holiday Special (which was de-canonized and disavowed almost immediately), the Doids and Ewoks cartoon shows, the Marvel comics, the Star Tours ride, and 7 books (Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the Han Solo trilogy, the Lando Calrissian trilogy). That's it, as far as I know. WEG originated so much Star Wars content that we take for granted today. In fact, the Armada core game set comes with a WEG ship. This is all to say that the WEG RPG is foundational to Star Wars EU content and the Star Wars community at large. Saying that non-triangular Imperial ships isn't supported in Star Wars is more extreme than saying Thrawn isn't supported in Star Wars.

The Attack of the Clones => Revenge of the Sith example is pretty moot. First of all, there was variety in their ships. ARC-170s, V-19 Torrents, Alpha-3 Nimbus (V-Wings), Delta-7s, Eta-2s, Y-Wings, Z-95 Headhunters, LAATs, and HAET-221s. Even the Wookiee Fluttercraft was a Republic vehicle. And that's only looking at one side of the war. Yeah the really big ships are going to be made by the really powerful manufacturers/really experienced designers, and they are a bigger investment during a time when the Republic is strained, so there will be fewer of them. But the Lancer isn't big and the Empire isn't strained.

As for the argument that "there is no time to develop anything other than a Star Destroyer," there are a lot of holes there. The Empire had tens of thousands or more developed worlds, with thousands of species and unique cultures; lots of those are going to have their own universities, shipwrights, and the like. There are going to be lots of people throughout the universe whose job it is to design starships - lots more than it takes to design the ISD. These people are going to keep on doing their job as long as they can, and most of them would love to get their design accepted by the Galactic Empire so they can get a lucrative contract with them. Star Wars is based mostly around WWII, and during that time, many different companies became involved in created war material and chased after government contracts. Additionally, the GE isn't going to hand out their ISD designs to anything but the most secure and "loyal" shipyards... but those smaller shipyards are going to want to produce stuff, all the same. And they're going to want to produce something that makes them valuable. There is considerable value in doing something that's different.

Finally, the Empire, like any good corrupt government, gives great power and leeway to Moffs and other local governors. These high-ranking or rich officials have enough wealth at their disposal to pursue their own technologies. Again, in the earliest pieces of Star Wars EU, the Han Solo trilogy, Han Solo travels to Corporate Sector (which is part of the current canon). There, large corporations make a ton of money for the Empire and in exchange the Empire allows them to operate with very few regulations (slavery, stripmining, etc. are legal). The Corporate Sector Authority has its very own starship designs, but is an Imperial faction. This is one of the more exciting parts of Star Wars - the galaxy is so vast and wonderful that you never know what strange new stuff you'll see next. If you take that away, the universe gets a lot less interesting. Yes the GE is a unifying force, but there are plenty of reasons to still have some variety.

Lastly, the rhombic pyramid design of Star Destroyers is really smart in that it allows them to concentrate all of their firepower on a single target (if it drops its angle of attack a little bit, because there are flat elements where the guns would get in each-others' way) and additionally, sloped armor is much more effective against frontal attacks. However there is no such thing as design that's perfect at everything. The ISD is the Empire's mainline capital ship because it's large enough to act independently and challenge almost any single enemy ship (or most planets) and versatile enough to perform any mission (deploy prefab bases, line combat, hunt pirates, coordinate construction, etc.). The ISD is the "ultimate" tool for the Empire because it can meet and exceed almost any challenge... at least it was until the Rebellion come into force. The ISD's shape is great for head-on engagements and line combat, but not so great at other things. One of the things the Star Destroyer design is bad at is... anti-starfighter duty. Starfighters move too quickly to keep them in your front arc. Instead, the Star Destroyer shape just presents a glaring weakness for starfighters to exploit: they can fire almost none of their weapons to aft. Why would you build a Star Destroyer anti-starfighter platform when starfighters are ideally suited to defeating it, then? Lancers not only can fire plenty of their weapons to aft, but they also mount each quad laser cannon on its own pylon to give each gun a superior field of view/fire against starfighters, resulting in more guns on target than with a Star Destroyer design.

As for Thrawn saying the ISD is perfect... well I covered a lot of that above. However, Thrawn's talent lies in his incredible resourcefulness. Some of the ships he used most iconically are the Dreadnaught and Shieldship, which are not Star Destroyers at all. Thrawn sees the advantages and disadvantages of everything on every side, and plays to all his strengths. Thrawn saw the Death Star as a waste of resources that would be more effectively used in the construction of versatile ISDs. And he may have had an ulterior motive of not wanting a planet-killer to be constructed as he prefers to assimilate rather than to completely destroy. He knew that a weapon like the Death Star would end up being used, which would result in the destruction of potential resources (cultures, species, designs, people) that he would rather gather, use, and enjoy himself.

/novel

If that all came off as aggressive or mean, that was not my intention. We can all have our own opinions, and all that. Just arguing my points. Yay internet! :-P

*Edit*

I kept writing "triangular prism" in my post, but the shape is actually a rhombic pyamid. My bad. Editing imstances in my post.

While it's true the Lancer (and several other designs) started with WEG (whose game is one of the best systems I've ever had the pleasure to run (and still do)), they did a lot that cost them the license. With the canon reboot, there is currently (unless I'm mistaken) no such thing as a Lancer, regardless where it originated. As I've never liked the WEG version (nor their system patrol craft, that always had a very "rebel transport" look to it IMO) I'm fine with a new design carrying an old name. While I get your TIE example, I don't feel it's very accurate given the non-(arguably never was)canon design, and my point of IF they accept the class of ship as existing, I personally think the fan based design is a better "fit" for the Star Wars universe.
I agree the design is worthy of it's own class/name, just I believe a prime purpose of a reboot is to "correct" issues with a brand. I feel the design has the correct appearance of an anti-starfighter based vessel, and the Lancer has this role. *shrugs* The two fit, and I suspect given the thematic feel of the game, we're more likely to get the angry triangle Lancer than the spiked collar phallus Lancer.
Oh, and my understanding is that the Victory wasn't a WEG ship. It was recycled Star Destroyer art that was rejected (which happens a lot with Star Wars...rejected designs suddenly showing up as "new" ships).
Labeling the actual films as a moot example is rather...er...dismissive? I was making the point of the change in ships over time. How many new Republic military designs came in RotS that weren't there in AotC. Delta 7's and Eta 2's were specifically Jedi starships not used by the Republic, so for my stated point (the Republic military) they don't count. Nor does the Wookie design, which was purely their own. Y-Wings and Z-95's aren't in RotS at all (unless I missed them in a still shot?) And the HAET-221 was a Confederate ship so not sure why you included that as an example of the Republic military? Out of the ships you listed, 3 actually apply to the situation -- half the number I gave credit for.
You bring up the Corporate Sector, and I'm not sure why. The Corporate Sector was an autonomous power independent of the Empire and has nothing to do with Imperial ship production or design. The backbone of its military was Imperial hand-me-downs partially stripped down, but other than that, so long as they kept their taxes paid to the Empire, they were left alone to run their corner of space as they fit. So, honestly, kind of a moot point considering the topic of Republic/Imperial ship production?
The ISD was not a ship of war, it was a ship of peace. Despite its over-all design ethic, it has tremendous "wasted" space issues. A ship of war doesn't need pre-fab bases, ground invasion troops, or ground attack vehicles. The ISD was a generic, peace time jack of all trades. The rising rebellion used ships of war; guns, shields, and engines -- period. No wasted space.
I get your point on fields of fire for canons, but the Lancer you're promoting has glaring weaknesses as well due to the far aft set of the guns and its long, phallic hull. Fully 1/3rd to 1/4th of its arms can't fire at any given approach, leaving a whole 14 (at most) anti-starfighter emplacements to deal with? Plus it was slow and clunky, unable to keep up with the very ships it was made to hunt and possessed no capital weapons to deal with even the relatively weak CR-90's that could easily run it down and destroy it while the fighters moved past toward their intended targets. Even the write up on it admits it was a design debacle.
The "no time for new designs" statement; let me clarify my meaning, because I think it's being interpreted wrong. I didn't mean to imply (or even claim) no new designs come about; of course they do. And when they do, if the design fills a need or is an upgrade to what is currently in use, they're put instantly into production, quickly replacing the prior model. The disappearing act of the Y-Wing and Torrent starfighters could be seen as "proof" of this: both largely deployed in the Clone War, and then simply vanishing by the time RotS is out, phased out and completely replaced by the ARC-170 and V-Wing. Production is simply so fast, there isn't down time in which "stop gap" designs are used. You just implement the improved design to fill the needed role.
Lastly, may I just say I hate Thrawn. I think the books sucked, he's a very sad attempt at a character, and he's fail as a military strategist. If I recall correctly, he lost every major engagement of the books and I honestly don't understand why people think he's so great. His tactics are poorly thought out, juvenile, needlessly complex, and incredibly shallow, showing a total lack of understanding of warfare on a grand scale.
I read a piece of fan fiction with a "Grand Admiral." She undermined Republic currency by using front men to influence the exchange rates of New Republic/Imperial credits in the underworld until inflation set in and many worlds preferred Imperial credits to Republic ones. She used slight of hand and clever tactics to bring the Corporate Sector back in line and even "repossessed" a lot of Victory Star Destroyers since they hadn't been paying their taxes. There was a great deal of smoke and shadow, misdirection, and genuine feeling of "you do not want to be in this persons way." She even used a squad of X-Wings purchased on the secondary market and fake pilots to make it look like the Republic was staging fake "Imperial" attacks on neutral systems just so they could fly in and rescue them, after real Republic politicians were caught saying "Well, we will do what we can to assist neutral worlds, but we have to save the bulk of our resources for Member worlds. You understand."
I thought the "studies their artwork" angle was interesting, but other than that Thrawn was a flat, stale, and largely incompetent character. *shrugs*

While I don't agree with a lot of your points, I do get why you see things that way, and respect your opinions. As we have both said, to each their own.
--sorry about the edit, was up helping the oldest with her civics, so I left out the section on addressing production time--

11 hours ago, Arowmund said:

Y-Wings and Z-95's aren't in RotS at all (unless I missed them in a still shot?)

They weren't, but they appeared in the Clone Wars TV Show, so they should be included in the group of new designs developed by the Republic during the Clone Wars.

Sad to hear about you hate of Thrawn. He didn't lose every major engagement, IIRC, he only 'lost' the ones he wasn't in command of (being a subordinate officer at the time) - actually, little of the book is him being a Grand Admiral. The other GA you mentioned sounds awesome too. Who was she?

Grand Admiral Ilex. She was in command of a secret facility near rimspace when the message came in that the Emperor was dead and the Death Star destroyed. She was able to keep the news secret until she had managed to redirect the loyalty of her troops from the Emperor himself to the idea of the Empire. She gutted the few SD's she had and packed them with whatever rare resources she could, using those to undercut markets and influence exchange rates. She smuggled teams into the wrecked ships at Endor and brought several hulks online, arming them and using them for a surprise attack on New Republic forces she'd lured in. She even stole a section of shipyards to use to augment her forces. There was a speech she gave about how corrupt the Old Republic was, how one young Senator had a vision of a Galaxy that stood as one, under one flag, and how the corrupt Senators, once deposed, were the ones that led the Rebellion against the new order. She used the speech to reveal the Emperor's death, but then countered that there would always be an Empire. The entire landing bay was chanting "Victory or death!" as she gave the order to set course for Endor and engage hyperdrive.
Her character was a master at psychology, economics, politics, tactics...she literally fought war on every conceivable level. It forever colored my view of what a "Grand Admiral" should be, and was some of the best fan-fic I've ever read, to be honest.

38 minutes ago, Arowmund said:

Grand Admiral Ilex. She was in command of a secret facility near rimspace when the message came in that the Emperor was dead and the Death Star destroyed. She was able to keep the news secret until she had managed to redirect the loyalty of her troops from the Emperor himself to the idea of the Empire. She gutted the few SD's she had and packed them with whatever rare resources she could, using those to undercut markets and influence exchange rates. She smuggled teams into the wrecked ships at Endor and brought several hulks online, arming them and using them for a surprise attack on New Republic forces she'd lured in. She even stole a section of shipyards to use to augment her forces. There was a speech she gave about how corrupt the Old Republic was, how one young Senator had a vision of a Galaxy that stood as one, under one flag, and how the corrupt Senators, once deposed, were the ones that led the Rebellion against the new order. She used the speech to reveal the Emperor's death, but then countered that there would always be an Empire. The entire landing bay was chanting "Victory or death!" as she gave the order to set course for Endor and engage hyperdrive.
Her character was a master at psychology, economics, politics, tactics...she literally fought war on every conceivable level. It forever colored my view of what a "Grand Admiral" should be, and was some of the best fan-fic I've ever read, to be honest.

It does indeed sound good. Did it seem realistic? Believable? Did you have to 'suspend disbelief' about the success of her schemes?

33 minutes ago, Arowmund said:

Grand Admiral Ilex. She was in command of a secret facility near rimspace when the message came in that the Emperor was dead and the Death Star destroyed. She was able to keep the news secret until she had managed to redirect the loyalty of her troops from the Emperor himself to the idea of the Empire. She gutted the few SD's she had and packed them with whatever rare resources she could, using those to undercut markets and influence exchange rates. She smuggled teams into the wrecked ships at Endor and brought several hulks online, arming them and using them for a surprise attack on New Republic forces she'd lured in. She even stole a section of shipyards to use to augment her forces. There was a speech she gave about how corrupt the Old Republic was, how one young Senator had a vision of a Galaxy that stood as one, under one flag, and how the corrupt Senators, once deposed, were the ones that led the Rebellion against the new order. She used the speech to reveal the Emperor's death, but then countered that there would always be an Empire. The entire landing bay was chanting "Victory or death!" as she gave the order to set course for Endor and engage hyperdrive.
Her character was a master at psychology, economics, politics, tactics...she literally fought war on every conceivable level. It forever colored my view of what a "Grand Admiral" should be, and was some of the best fan-fic I've ever read, to be honest.

That sounds like something I would love to read!

As far as Thrawn goes, his fans concentrate too much on his almost supernatural ability to read a culture by it's art, and unconventional tactics.

His detractors focus too much on his overcomplicated plans, overconfidence, and usually the silly art reading.

It would however be very difficult to find any great military leader from our own history that couldn't be argued as Overrated or a Genius.

Napoleon, Nelson, Patton, Alexander... and many others. Pick any one, and with a little research you can argue either side. This alone makes Thrawn a realistic character.

The one skill as a commander that we see constantly from Thrawn yet rarely mentioned, he was a mentor to his junior officers. Everything with him is a teachable moment. That is what truly set him apart from other Imperial commanders we see on screen.

Ok, Soapbox put away.

7 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

It does indeed sound good. Did it seem realistic? Believable? Did you have to 'suspend disbelief' about the success of her schemes?

I found it to be very "Star Warsy" and believable. Her character was very concerned with the lives of her troops, but could be brutal when called for. A "neutral" world had a New Republic base on it, and she asked the world leaders very politely to demand its removal. She made it clear in no uncertain terms that she wished his people no harm, but that the base was a threat to her supply line and it was going to have to go, one way or another. When the brushed her off, she launched a full scale ground assault with AT-AT's set to march through a major population center. It was the least defended side of the base and presented the most cover for her forces till they were at near point blank range. Afterward she made it clear once more that she regretted the necessary tactics, and reminded the leaders of the world that her primary concern would always be for the lives of the citizens of the Empire; which his people were not, and hers were.
There was even some expansive fluff bits that I liked. Like her pilots almost starting a mutiny when word got out she was ordering all the TIE's to be equipped with shielding. They saw it as an insult to their skills and courage (the angle the training programs used). She countered calmly that it was that skill and training that required shields. "I will not have some of the best pilots to ever fly killed because some gundark-fisted-farm-boy gets in a lucky shot. The shields will protect you from one hit, Captain. Perhaps two. If you are hit a third time...well then, by that point I'd imagine your shields wouldn't have helped in the first place. So what, exactly, are you lamenting?"
In the end, an Interdictor failed and it's gravity well collapsed, allowing several New Republic ships to escape. She immediately ordered the withdrawal of all forces back to the secret location. Her second in command protested as they could clearly still win, and she looked at him and said "We can win the war, Captain, but we will lose the peace. The ships that escaped will require ten times that many to hunt them down, to say nothing of the others who will flock to their banners. All we will accomplish is ending the lives of too many more, just to repeat the mistakes of the past. No; this is over for now. We will retreat, and return when we are ready. And if history is any judge, we will be even more welcome when we do."
Her schemes were clever and inventive, but not usually complex, if that makes sense? She would have intricate timing, but she always planned for flexibility because things go wrong.
lol I remember when she was "talking" to the Corporate Sector folks, and had two of her "new" TIE's launch and fire a single missile at a warship as a show that the Empire was not "a rotting corpse." It blew in half and was almost knocked out of orbit as it exploded. Scared the Force out of them. She'd actually had her ships triangulate the warship and had a heavy freighter drop out of hyperspace millimeters from its hull. It was still moving ridiculously fast and had slipped through the shields due to the refresh rates and hyperspace speed. I think that was the most "far fetched" thing she did.

Hah, now FFG is republishing the WEG RPG. :-D

2 hours ago, Knightcrawler said:

Hah, now FFG is republishing the WEG RPG. :-D

I wonder how much they'll change the material. Clearly they'll have to add the Raider and Assault Frigate to the ship books. I'm both excited and trepidatious.

21 hours ago, Arowmund said:

I wonder how much they'll change the material. Clearly they'll have to add the Raider and Assault Frigate to the ship books. I'm both excited and trepidatious.

I think it is just a reprint of the old book. They already have their own RPGs set in the Star Wars universe with dozens of reference books. I do not see any reason for them to update the old one with new information. It is probably just a low effort low cost way to provide a nostalgia boost to older fans and bring in a little extra revenue for minimal investment.

4 minutes ago, Swusn said:

I think it is just a reprint of the old book. They already have their own RPGs set in the Star Wars universe with dozens of reference books. I do not see any reason for them to update the old one with new information. It is probably just a low effort low cost way to provide a nostalgia boost to older fans and bring in a little extra revenue for minimal investment.

I'll still take it. My originals are a lil dog-eared anyway

I know a lot of people are ragging on the "Space Triangle" aesthetic of the Empire but I for one love it. The Empire is a homogeneous entity that does not like or accept individuality. Their soldiers wear armor that hides their faces, their ships and fighters are mass produced as cheaply as possible so they can dominate as much space as possible.

I really do not like the Idea of Lancers, Dreadnoughts (The EU kind not the canon SSDs), Assault gunboats, CR-90's, Neb-Bs etc being mainstays in the Imperial Fleet. That being said, we know that several systems had their own military forces before the commissioning of the Grand Army of the Republic, We knew wealthy worlds like Naboo produced their own fighters and cruisers, Tarkin's home world of Eriadu had a fleet of ships used to fight pirates. It would be safe to assume larger production centers Like Corellia and Fondor would have large defense fleets to defend their shipyards and interest as well as dozens of other possible worlds that each could have had unique craft. At the outbreak of the Clone Wars many of these fleets were absorbed by the Grand Army of the Republic (and I would assume the CIS did the same).

We also know form the Tarkin Novel (when Eli Vanto is offered an attache role and command of a vessel in a inner systems plant militia) that some systems still had local militia and their own ships but were still in the Imperial military hierarchy.

I wouldn't mind seeing a lot of the old Legends craft brought into the fold through stories that show they may not be ships of the line or even standard throughout the military fleet but they do exist in smaller numbers in the planetary defense forces. This could also be a good way to make a third faction or cross faction ships.