Why are generics unplayable in competitive, I believe it is because PS is way undercosted. The only generics in competitive play recently are the jumpmaster and the scurrg (triple K's has been dead for a while, and no it was never a completely meta shattering list). Oh and almost forget 4 (y-wing or aggressors) tlts that also was never meta dominating just infuriating as **** to play against. That being said why are there even generics in the game they honestly serve no purpose outside of epic play, which FFG has clearly shown no support for?

I disagree. I placed fourth in a store champ with three generics. Omega specialists x2 and starkiller base pilot. Its all in how you play them and load them out. Just like the non-generic pilots.

For just 4pts you could have upgraded one to Quickdraw or for measly 2pts you could have upgraded to other to Backdraft. Both of those options are better than upgrade card equivalents for the point cost. Also look at list juggler I do not see any top lists with generics except the ones I mentioned, yes if you are playing against lower skilled opponents you can win but statistically generics just do not hold up. Basically yes it is possible for one guy to win with triple x-wings that does not mean they are good.

Generics are playable, depending on the list. Stresshog? Academy and Blacks for that crackswarm?

Your complaint is taking things too far. Generics pop up in potent lists from time to time, and as usual the meta remains fluid. There are decent uses for some generics. Aces will be better but there are times when you need more ships. The problem of course with generics is getting PS killed by an ace, and often the point cost leaves you wanting.

Y-Wings, and B-Wings are generally better the cheaper they are so generics generally rule the day with them.

Scyks and Ties die fast but can be cheap cannon and crack shot carriers respectively so they are often better than the named pilots in that you can squeeze more into your list.

Then there is Epic play where there are so many guns covering so many arcs that any ship with a named pilot pretty much dies in 1st or 2nd round of shooting. Bring the PS 4 and 5 generics with Ion torps and those capital ships don't stand a chance.

And finally, blocking. If you can set up a key block you can often give your other ships prime shots against tokenless aces.

The problem is ffg costing generics and aces the same for every ship in the game.

For less maneuverable and/or easier to kill ships generics are often better.

On the flip side for maneuverable and/or harder to kill ships aces are often better.

The other problem is the 2nd type of ships are usually the best ships in the game, hence why generics seem terrible.

Generics have never been collectively bad - they've won worlds, and tie swarms are still fairly consistent performers. There was even a tactician tie bomber squad that made it to the quarterfinals in SteleTVs PTL league. The fact is, there will always be power in numbers.

Having said that, effective generics mean running light on upgrades to keep cost efficiency up in order to table the most ships possible. The direct consequence of this is that swarms explicitly do not benefit from the plethora of great upgrades we've been getting lately. So as the game experiences any level of power creep (Even if we disagree on how much), generics will inevitably be left behind. Further, they require far more skill to fly than 2-3 ship lists, so there's inherent disincentive to run them for all but the most competetive players.

However! They still aren't bad. And when Guns For Hire hits the shelves, I guarantee you'll see some vaksai squads. But you probably won't be seeing any Gand Findsmen anytime soon.

Generics are in a rough spot and have been for a while with a few nitch exceptions. The game left them in the dust for a lot of different reasons. The biggest I think are:

1. Action efficiency/comboing is a much larger part of the game. Remember the satisfaction of spending 2 turns jockeying and risking position so you could get that money 3 dice TL+focus shot? That was once considered amazing! Now it's arguably subpar... Named pilots with abilities and tools leveraging consistancy or multiple attacks (consistency via more red) tend to be the best bang-for-your-buck and seriously outclass their frame's generics. Generics are left to the mercy of dice variance.

2. Blocking doesn't matter nearly as much anymore (see: combo-wing).

3. Red dice creep paired with more accessible modification. Used to be an Academy pilot at range 3 could weather the fire from 2-3 ships and probably still return fire. I think the Zuckuss wave was the tipping point here. Even though he was nerfed there were/are too many tools out there now to counter range and single-modded greens.

4. Named ships nowadays are more aggressively costed to make them more appealing each wave. Why would you even consider a PS3 phantom vs Pure Sabacc for the exact same point value?

5. Often generics don't have the reactive repositioning options of big league named pilots. Makes it a lot harder to dodge arcs or bubbles than their high PS counterparts.

I don't really feel that leaving generics behind has been healthy for the game. I really enjoyed and embraced the varience of dice in the early era of X-Wing. It's a large part of why this game has been less and less appealing to me since wave 8.

I feel like swarms are the natural enemy of the current big list of fair rebels. Biggs tends to not fair as well with many small shots instead of a few large per turn.

1 hour ago, garciaj113 said:

For just 4pts you could have upgraded one to Quickdraw or for measly 2pts you could have upgraded to other to Backdraft. Both of those options are better than upgrade card equivalents for the point cost. Also look at list juggler I do not see any top lists with generics except the ones I mentioned, yes if you are playing against lower skilled opponents you can win but statistically generics just do not hold up. Basically yes it is possible for one guy to win with triple x-wings that does not mean they are good.

I do love Quickdraw and Backdraft but, i do not think they would have faired better in that list with my play style, while missing the few upgrades that i had to support the generics. They worked fine and i played against very good players. The dice won out more times for me than my opponents and i had made a few mistakes which cost me two games out of five. I find not all generics are worth the point cost but doesnt mean they all suck. All situational, and the persons play style are what can determine a list.

1 hour ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

I feel like swarms are the natural enemy of the current big list of fair rebels. Biggs tends to not fair as well with many small shots instead of a few large per turn.

And crits. I nearly lost to a Serissu-plus-three-TPVs list, because of Mangler Cannons. By partway through turn two of shooting, I had to stop using Draw Their Fire, and neither R4-D6 nor Selflessness helps with crits.

This has been largely covered above, but succinctly:

- the abilities on the named pilots are so good

- actions don't matter like they used too (looking at you, Dengar) so blocking is less effective

- getting killed before shooting is the worst

- not having access to an EPT is boring and weak

38 minutes ago, sozin said:

This has been largely covered above, but succinctly:

- the abilities on the named pilots are so good

- actions don't matter like they used too (looking at you, Dengar) so blocking is less effective

- getting killed before shooting is the worst

- not having access to an EPT is boring and weak

And even in Epic, where generics do actually fair better, the last 2 points are still significant disadvantages.

It's been said a million times, but this game needs same-ship synergy for generics, ergo a squadron mechanic.

Its all about action economy. YOU NEED IT. The EPT slot is about 50% of how you get it. 20% from pilot abilities. 30% from other upgrade slots like FCS, Chips, K4 etc. So generics without EPT miss out on a lot of action efficient upgrades, and dont have pilot abilities to help them out either.

Jess Pava is probably the best example of how generics are being costed out. Versus Blue Squad Novice. For 1 measly point you get an ability that is bonkers and more PS. There is really no reason to ever run blue squad vet again. Red Squad Vet has an EPT and costs 1 more point than Jess. But for 1 pt, Jess gets an EPT with R2D6 bot. Add on her ability, and unless you run two Red Squad Vets, there is no reason to really ever run a Red Squad Vet again either. Jess has pushed out generics.

I think there is still a place for generic "blockers", not so much about action denial, but arc denial. FFG is making a point for in-arc abilities and upgrades, so a TIE fighter that blocks Expertise/K4 Dengar may not stop actions, but keeps his arc in control.

I think they do need to make blocking more damaging to action economy though. More effects should be negated by bumping imo.

5 hours ago, garciaj113 said:

Why are generics unplayable in competitive

Low PS, no pilot ability and usually no Elite talent.

/end thread

Generics are usually worst when their ace counterparts are arc-dodgy glass cannons (E-Wing, Phantom, Interceptor, Tie Adv. Prototype, TIE/fo ... i could go on) since low PS really hurts on those vessels. The standard TIE is somewhat of an exception due to the exceptionally cheap frame. Generally, the issue becomes worse as the base points increase (TIE int has it bad, E-Wing has it... friggin bad).

The point is that low hull low ps pilots are just very likely to be shot down before firing themselves.

FFG does not acknowledge this and prices these generics the same way as otherm sturdier frames where generics work (X-Wing (traditionally, less so now), Y-Wing, TIE Defender, TIE/sf, Trandoshan slaver, Lothal rebel, TIE Shuttle, ... i could go on).

Hence... generics seem to suck, with the exception of some high hull ones.

P.S.: And sometimes, the pricing is just just WAY off. Poor Punisher.

Clearly someone's never faced FIVE. CARTEL. MARAUDERS.

2 hours ago, Polaritie said:

I think they do need to make blocking more damaging to action economy though. More effects should be negated by bumping imo.

A nice mod for ps2 or lower ships bring blocking and generics back.

1pt Modification

Support Frame

"At start of combat, you may assign one stress token to a ship that is touching you."

7 minutes ago, wurms said:

A nice mod for ps2 or lower ships bring blocking and generics back.

1pt Modification

Support Frame

"At start of combat, you may assign one stress token to a ship that is touching you."

I think you are on the right track, but since this will usually be on pilots like "Academy Pilot" or "Rookie Pilot" then I would change the name.

"Student Driver"

"At start of the combat phase, you may assign one stress token to a ship that you are overlapping."

The Ps1 Zealous Recruit is badly underrated.

4 hours ago, wurms said:

Jess Pava is probably the best example of how generics are being costed out. Versus Blue Squad Novice. For 1 measly point you get an ability that is bonkers and more PS. There is really no reason to ever run blue squad vet again. Red Squad Vet has an EPT and costs 1 more point than Jess. But for 1 pt, Jess gets an EPT with R2D6 bot. Add on her ability, and unless you run two Red Squad Vets, there is no reason to really ever run a Red Squad Vet again either. Jess has pushed out generics.

I too was going to mention Jess Pava. The value of a pilot ability is generally not accounted for with most unique pilots in X-wing. Jess is same price as the generics with a "free" pilot ability. Her ability is actually worth 3 points at minimum. Increased cost for unique pilots merely goes up with PS value. For some time now generic pilots have been purposely overcosted by the designers. For some reason they only want named pilots to be competitive. They still print generic pilot cards to give the illusion of choice. At least they're are working in some low PS named pilots. Sunny Bounder is a recent example.

Another case in point is the unofficial FAQ leak. The biggest changes target the last remaining viable generic pilots, K-wings and Jumpmasters. After that, the only useable generic ships will be TLT Y-wings and Aggressors. TIE Swarm has been dead for some time. An Academy Pilot could cost 10 points and it would be useable again. Literally near a 20% discount.

Not really, no. The fang is another overpriced alpha squadron apart from raus incredible ps and ability

Ffg kinda learned from it when they made the similary durable and manueverable Striker be only 17 points (19 with lwf) that had a manueverability boost that wasn't tied to its action and you still don't see much of them

Only generic I'd ever field anymore is the delta because x7s are still awesome

G4h might make blacksun aces cool too

8 hours ago, garciaj113 said:

Why are generics unplayable in competitive, I believe it is because PS is way undercosted. The only generics in competitive play recently are the jumpmaster and the scurrg (triple K's has been dead for a while, and no it was never a completely meta shattering list). Oh and almost forget 4 (y-wing or aggressors) tlts that also was never meta dominating just infuriating as **** to play against. That being said why are there even generics in the game they honestly serve no purpose outside of epic play, which FFG has clearly shown no support for?

Ok, your bad. Fine.

why assume everyone else is?

Incidentally, why did ffg know to give both ryad and glaives epts

While the poor onyx escort gressors get shafted? Deadeye would've been so great on them!