1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

indeed, warmachiways been very nice about not hafrving true line of sight (which was generaleshow when I played it but that was 1 2 years ago...**** I'm old). It always has a tight rule set, a great dice system with lots of throws, and a very robust objective system

course, it has its downsides the biggest being that every model/unit comes with a boatload of extra, special rules even the cannonfodder units. They're all printed on handy reference cards, but all the abilities + interactions from support models and the warcaster make the learning curve look like a brick wall. X-wing and Armada do not have this issue

They the same IMO. Just instead of the special rules being on the normal cards it all on these upgrade cards which can be swapped out. Warmachine has no upgrades. A models rules are always the same from game to game.

14 hours ago, Ailowynn said:

Yeah, dice creep isn't just NUMBER of dice; it's also consistency. It's at the point where, if you don't have TL+focus, you wonder why you're even trying.

To be honest, the only real RNG in the game anymore is matchups, to the extent that your matchup basically determines who will win the game. Everything else is secondary.

I have an idea to counter this:

Hondo Ohnaka
1 point unique crew, no faction

Rerolled or added dice cannot be modified again.

The ability seems pretty thematic for Hondo, who both helps and screws over everyone equally. There's no range limit on this ability and it lasts as long as Hondo stays on the field, but it hits your own squad just as much as your opponents. You can still use a TL and Focus in the same attack, but the focus will only work on the eyeballs that were rolled initially and won't help if you reroll a blank into a focus.

34 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

I have an idea to counter this:

Hondo Ohnaka
1 point unique crew, no faction

Rerolled or added dice cannot be modified again.

The ability seems pretty thematic for Hondo, who both helps and screws over everyone equally.

only in a world where list building does not exist. Putting together a squadron that just doesn't get double mods isn't that hard.Hondo would also make R4-B11 and zuckuss+insrecruit absolutely riddiculous

17 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Is there really a point to dice being involved anymore?

Dice modification is off the hook. It's getting to where the rolls are nearly never what's.......rolled.

And the auto damage.....oof.

So, it's just an observation,and it's got me thinking....if not a single card that involves yet another way to change dice is ever released it would be just fine.

Nailed it, again, good sir.

18 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Sarcasm aside --albeit appreciated-- I truly think the designers wish it to become a card game, miniatures optional.

The design of X-Wing itself is based on a game which can be placed with just cards.

@Velvetelvis I get what you're saying but I've totally wiffed it on a first roll with the ability to pretty much re-roll everything again (target locks, focus etc.) and wiffed it again... so just because you can re-roll, sometimes multiple times... it doesn't mean the re-roll gets better all the time. Just saying...

I've lost games I should have won due to dice rolls and i've won games I should of lost due to dice rolls so I still like the variable of dice.

On 8/4/2017 at 7:19 PM, Velvetelvis said:

Is there really a point to dice being involved anymore?

Dice modification is off the hook. It's getting to where the rolls are nearly never what's.......rolled.

And the auto damage.....oof.

So, it's just an observation,and it's got me thinking....if not a single card that involves yet another way to change dice is ever released it would be just fine.

Dice modification I have no problem with. If they spent resources and spent there actions to do it, then great. My problem is with things such as K4, Mindlink, Old X/7, and Expertise to an extent. Nothing should be free and be assigned. Everything should come at a cost of flying good. Now it's a strategy to bump someone to not get shot but be fully tokened up on offense to shoot the other guy. Should come at a cost, not a benefit.

14 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Not true. Warmachine and Infinity both treat the miniatures as cylinders of specific dimensions for all purposes. You could play with just bases in either game as long as facings were marked.

In both Warmachine and Infinity however, the miniatures themselves are the indication of what the unit represents. If you remove the model, you'd need different markings of what's on a specific base.

On 05/08/2017 at 4:11 AM, Ailowynn said:

That's fair, although there always will be that one matchup that just destroys you...it's largely a question of how well you predict the meta.

Which is another way of saying rock/papers/cutty things.

which is always how things have been.

10 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

The design of X-Wing itself is based on a game which can be placed with just cards.

That looks great. What we need is someone to do a version involving spaceships, while keeping the simple dynamics and focus on manoeuvres.

fingers crossed!

On 8/5/2017 at 4:03 PM, Elavion said:

I detect a person who takes everything they read on the internet for granted without doing their own research

I detect a person who twists data to accommodate his or her opinions. I did my research (in fact, I do my research every single day). You choose to interpret the data how you like, I'll do the same, please and thank you.

On 8/5/2017 at 6:54 PM, wurms said:

It was always just build 71pt list and toss in palps. Same as scum and manaroo.

Always? That's absolutely false. Sure, Palp Aces was popular (and varied, it wasn't actually just the same 3 ships, so it's not comparable to Triple Jump or Dengaroo – which is actually all just ONE ship; we even had just gotten a second kind of shuttle, so it wasn't even going to be always the Lambda anymore). But in the same timeframe so was DeciPhantom and so was the Swarm, which consistently did great at major events. Heck, right when Palp got nerfed, Triple Defender has already become more popular than Palp Aces.

A bit of history. World 2015, Brad Miller got 10th with DeciPhantom, Dallas Parker got 13th with Classic Swarm, Drew Bishop got 14th with Whisper-Swarm, Martin Hoffman got 16th with Triple Aces. Of course Top 16 had also two Palp Aces: Jeremy Howard was 4th with Vader and Soontir, Francisco Berna Menendez was 6th with Vader and Jax. But you could say that two thirds of the Imperial lists that got Top 16 didn't need Palp for that. (DeciPhantom could certainly feature Palp; Miller's didn't, but then does anybody ever complain about, say, Push the Limit or Engine Upgrade being used too much so they need a nerf? One card doesn't equal to squad cloning, and DeciPhantom couldn't play more differently than Palp Aces, back then just as it does now). Also, total number of Palp Aces in the Top 32: three.

Skip to World 2016, where Palp Aces end up 4th place again thanks to Duncan Howard, but with Vessery and Omega Leader, so they changed players entirely except for the Lambda. They play similarly? Yes, but so do any three aces of any faction, and most double-large-ship squads. In the Top 8 we'll find two more, both of the double Defender variety (Vessery+Ryad), Steffen Kaehler and James Hedgeoeth III. Then Top 16 has: another Palp (Ryad+Jax), DeciPhantom (with Oicunn!), Triple Defender. Three more Palp Aces in the Top 32, including a Soontir+Mareek Stele and an OL+Inq+Wampa. So grand total here in the Top 32 is seven Palp Aces, but most of them with a different build, so this is a picture of Imperial players using 12 different pilots on 8 different ships. That's way more than top Scum players did in the Brobots era and then in the JumpMaster era. So don't tell me the Emperor needed to be nerfed so the Imperial players could try more different ships. I don't even think they did, some of the ships that were played then aren't played competitively anymore (of course there are other meta reasons for that). The truth is that Palp+Lambda was a safe (not to mention, flavorful) foundation that allowed for his wingmen to be a large number of different ships: in addition to the ones mentioned above, Tomax was also legit, and of course Quickdraw/Backdraft and Sabacc; pretty much the entire Imperial roster but the Firespray and Punisher was in play at the highest competitive levels back then; it's not so true anymore.

We can have a look at World 2017, and it'll be a very quick look because there's only one Imperial list in the Top 16, a DeciPhantom by Tyler Tippett at 14th place (this time with Palp+Ren; of course this Palp is used very differently than the old one, it's mostly a glorified Mercenary Copilot). We have to go down to the 24th, 31st and 32nd places to find more Imperial in the Top 32: two are Quickdraw/Backdraft lists, one is the very loyal Imperial officer Steffen Kaehler, who never stopped playing Palp Aces, this time in a 4-ship version with two Strikers and Omega Leader.

I see a lot of talk about the Empire missing some unique element, like Rebels now have with bombs and regeneration, and Scum with Illicit and maneuverable big butts. That thing was the chance to change one die per round at will. That and high-agility aces were their things. Now both are compromised, so that's why Imperial players feel sad and punished, and without even having one world title to show for it, or even one world championship where they really dominated the Top 16.

36 minutes ago, Kumagoro said:

Always? That's absolutely false...

Skip to World 2016, where Palp Aces end up 4th place again thanks to Duncan Howard, but with Vessery and Omega Leader, so they changed players entirely except for the Lambda. They play similarly? Yes, but so do any three aces of any faction, and most double-large-ship squads. In the Top 8 we'll find two more, both of the double Defender variety (Vessery+Ryad), Steffen Kaehler and James Hedgeoeth III. Then Top 16 has: another Palp (Ryad+Jax), DeciPhantom (with Oicunn!), Triple Defender. Three more Palp Aces in the Top 32, including a Soontir+Mareek Stele and an OL+Inq+Wampa. So grand total here in the Top 32 is seven Palp Aces, but most of them with a different build, so this is a picture of Imperial players using 12 different pilots on 8 different ships.

Thank you for proving my point. When I say "always" then obviously I dont mean EVERY LIST 100%. Try not to take **** so literally. Of course there are crack swarms, etc. But majority of imperial players fly Palps. Pre-nerf it was Palps or bust with the occasional sprinkling of trip defenders/aces. Even Deci+Phantom/Ace was Palp with Rebel Captive/Vader/Kylo. Palp Palp Palp. He was truly emperor of the imperials. Thankfully now he has been subdued and creativity is loose.

Posting 2015 stats is irrelevant because Palps was just released a couple months prior. Similar to Wave 9 and 2016 Worlds. The list Parattanni (or just upgrade Attanni Mindlink rather) that wrecked most regionals was completely available for worlds 2016, similar to Palp for 2015, but takes awhile to catch on and not many people want to try something "new" at Worlds.

15 minutes ago, wurms said:

Thank you for proving my point. When I say "always" then obviously I dont mean EVERY LIST 100%. Try not to take **** so literally. Of course there are crack swarms, etc. But majority of imperial players fly Palps. Pre-nerf it was Palps or bust with the occasional sprinkling of trip defenders/aces. Even Deci+Phantom/Ace was Palp with Rebel Captive/Vader/Kylo. Palp Palp Palp. He was truly emperor of the imperials. Thankfully now he has been subdued and creativity is loose.

Posting 2015 stats is irrelevant because Palps was just released a couple months prior. Similar to Wave 9 and 2016 Worlds. The list Parattanni (or just upgrade Attanni Mindlink rather) that wrecked most regionals was completely available for worlds 2016, similar to Palp for 2015, but takes awhile to catch on and not many people want to try something "new" at Worlds.

Actually, if you care to notice trends for around the Palp Nerf, triple Aces were showing up more than it.

Your argument is still based on Palp being majority, which wasn't true.

1 hour ago, Kumagoro said:

Now both are compromised, so that's why Imperial players feel sad and punished, and without even having one world title to show for it, or even one world championship where they really dominated the Top 16.

Point of order: the Empire does have a Worlds win. Doug Kinney used Vader + TIE swarm to win the first one way back in 2012.

1 minute ago, DR4CO said:

Point of order: the Empire does have a Worlds win. Doug Kinney used Vader + TIE swarm to win the first one way back in 2012.

*nods* back when the TIE swarm was considered the OP list.

On 8/5/2017 at 2:08 PM, Velvetelvis said:

Target locks...expertise.. chips...cad ...Sabine...autoblaster...

Anytime someone picks up dice anymore...just assume optimal results and save time.

NEVER underestimate the odds of your dice choosing to screw you over at the worst possible time

On 8/6/2017 at 7:20 AM, SEApocalypse said:

The design of X-Wing itself is based on a game which can be placed with just cards.

I read a post by one of the designers of Wings of War that they were asked by FFG to do a Star Wars version, but it didn't get accepted. Later, FFG released a very similar, but different enough game...

18 hours ago, Spider said:

That looks great. What we need is someone to do a version involving spaceships, while keeping the simple dynamics and focus on manoeuvres.

fingers crossed!

You can do that today on your own. Use whatever ships you want but you are limited to 3. No named pilots. For example, the B-Wing has Blue Squadron and Dagger Squadron those are the only valid pilot cards. Zero slots can be used. If a ship only has named pilots, then it cannot be used unless you are playing Advanced Rules. That is as close to Wings of War (now known as Wings of Glory) as you can get. The Advanced Rules of Wings of War allowed you to have only a single named pilot (that was later changed).

You have everything you need to play with that format. No need for anyone to write that up. You can start today.

It is the named pilots, slots and special abilities that throw off balance and force this back and forth with the FAQ going Nerf/Buff Nerf/Buff in attempt to even things out. You can make it simple and there is nothing that stops you from playing that way.

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Actually, if you care to notice trends for around the Palp Nerf, triple Aces were showing up more than it.

Your argument is still based on Palp being majority, which wasn't true.

According to meta analyzer, from Nov-2015 until March-2017 Imps had 5 lists in the top 10.

#3 Commonwealth Defenders (Palp+Ryad+Vessery)

#4 Mynock Special (Palp+Whisper+OL)

#5 Palp Aces (Palp+Inquisitor+Soontir)

#7 Imp A-holes (Palp+Inquisitor+OL+Wampa)

and then at #8 is Triple Defenders

keep going?

#12 Palp Aces (Palp+Soontir+Vader)

#19 DeciWhisper (RAC w/ Palp + Whisper)

Not until #23 most used list you get to a swarm

Your next trip aces is #30 OL/Vess/Ryad

and not until #44 you get to classic trip aces of Soontir/Vader/Inquisitor

You know this is actually a trend in almost every game with a long development lifespan? As players invest more time and skill into playing a game it becomes appropriate to lower the varience or "luck" in the game.

x-wing started with opposed rolls. there is a massive varience with opposed dice rolls.

1 hour ago, wurms said:

According to meta analyzer, from Nov-2015 until March-2017 Imps had 5 lists in the top 10.

#3 Commonwealth Defenders (Palp+Ryad+Vessery)

#4 Mynock Special (Palp+Whisper+OL)

#5 Palp Aces (Palp+Inquisitor+Soontir)

#7 Imp A-holes (Palp+Inquisitor+OL+Wampa)

and then at #8 is Triple Defenders

keep going?

#12 Palp Aces (Palp+Soontir+Vader)

#19 DeciWhisper (RAC w/ Palp + Whisper)

Not until #23 most used list you get to a swarm

Your next trip aces is #30 OL/Vess/Ryad

and not until #44 you get to classic trip aces of Soontir/Vader/Inquisitor

Ah, my apologies. I was dividing my attention when I was writing my last post and accidentally named the "Aces" arch-type instead of the triple Defenders I meant, which does show up more than Commonwealth between wave 10 and the big Nerf, as I said.

Palp was popular, but not the only game in town, like you claimed.

On 8/5/2017 at 10:53 AM, PhantomFO said:

I have an idea to counter this:

Hondo Ohnaka
1 point unique crew, no faction

Rerolled or added dice cannot be modified again.

The ability seems pretty thematic for Hondo, who both helps and screws over everyone equally. There's no range limit on this ability and it lasts as long as Hondo stays on the field, but it hits your own squad just as much as your opponents. You can still use a TL and Focus in the same attack, but the focus will only work on the eyeballs that were rolled initially and won't help if you reroll a blank into a focus.

If this only applied to attack dice this would be pretty good.

On 5.8.2017 at 6:25 AM, wurms said:

Unless you are Wurms, then let that bastard roll, cause he can magically turn "hit blank blank blank" into "hit blank blank blank".

Shhhh, you're supposed to reroll the 3 blanks, not the hit

It's like first time in my X-Wing history that I have started to value Accuracy Corrector more and more.

All though there is just few ships that use it. So 95% time I'm throwing dice.. And that is the most fun part of ANY game for me!!!