Caveats: This is not intended to be a thread about playing and counterplaying AvengerBT. Also, not a thread about whether or not people are using it. I'm working through those and finding successful counters in our local league. The point of this is purely from a game design perspective. This isn't a thread where "get good" applies

Problem statement(s): AvengerBT is the only existing design that can reliably and consistently kill ANY ship in the game (except Motti ISD) in a single activation.

Second issue: If AvengerBT has first activation and starts the round at close range, it is a combo that CANNOT be stopped. Previous Avenger "abuse" required two-step methods (suppressor, Overload pulse, multiple attacks).

3rd issue: it is a card combination. No other ship/Title in the game (even those unable to equip BT), can do this. A Devastator with no tokens can't reliably wipe any ship in one activation. Mon Karren couldn't.

Some data/numbers: AvengerBT (built right) can average 12.5 damage from the front arc and can add another 4.5 from the side arc. None of which can be braced or redirected. A Liberty through the front is 13, a Home One is 12, an ISD 15, and a Motti ISD 18 HP through a single facing

Special note: Yavaris with proper support (Keyan, Norra, 2 BWIngs, a BCC nearby) caps at dealing a staggering 31 damage. Though it averages around 19 and requires 6 moving parts). This is also in the range of killing almost everything in one activation. The significant difference is that AvengerBT does it by itself.

So my question is: In a game who's selling point is starship combat, is releasing a card combination that allows you a single-stand, single-activation way to one-shot ANY single target you choose a good idea?

52 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Some data/numbers: AvengerBT (built right) can average 12.5 damage from the front arc and can add another 4.5 from the side arc.

What ISD build averages 12.5 out the front...?

I'm looking at spinal, Vader, and OE on ISD1, which averages (napkin math) 10.8 out the front.

Edit: oh wait, no OE. LS is harder to calculate but pretty close to a wash last time I ran a comparison between the two, so I'll just let it stand.

Honestly, I think the BT Avenger is just the result of OP+Avenger never being particular useful or widely used. (and, yes, I am aware I'm biased as ****).

The article:
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/9/2/rule-through-fear/

Really pushed the idea of Screed+OP+Avenger, but as a Pulsetapper myself, I can say it's not the easiest technique to get off right. I get the impression the insta-death Avenger was always something they wanted to happen using MSU/Bomber/and Long range fleets as a hard counter to it.

Boarding troops just made it easier.

Maybe it's important to them to keep the most iconic ship on the table to attract new players?

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

So my question is: In a game who's selling point is starship combat, is releasing a card combination that allows you a single-stand, single-activation way to one-shot ANY single target you choose a good idea?

No. So, if it could shown that the underlying assumption in your problem statement were true (that the ship could not be prevented from killing any single ship that it chose every game), I would concede that this was bad design. However, your second issue statement not only assumes ideal tactical conditions, but also handwaves away counterplay--either tactical or in the form of non-token defenses like Lando and Admonition--which I think undermines your point significantly.

I mean, you're basically saying "let's assume there was nothing you could do to prevent this thing that is balanced by the possibility of preventing it. Is that broken?"

Because counterplay is possible, BTvenger is not an example of bad design so much as one of "upping the ante" on your tactical play: if you avoid that shot well, it goes a long way toward defeating that build as it does not hit particularly hard out past close, nor does it sport Gunnery Teams, XI7, or any other common bugaboos. If you do not avoid that shot well, you're ******.

Defense Tokens are a great element of this game, but they are not the be-all-end-all of what makes it good.

I've always disliked that I'm more afraid of eating an MC30 or GSD's wrath than an ISD's front arc. This combo gives you the option to remedy that. Parking in Avenger's front arc at close range should be terrifying . Now it is.

Also, why is this in the Rules Forum?

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

What ISD build averages 12.5 out the front...?

I'm looking at spinal, Vader, and OE on ISD1, which averages (napkin math) 10.8 out the front.

Edit: oh wait, no OE. LS is harder to calculate but pretty close to a wash last time I ran a comparison between the two, so I'll just let it stand.

Rerolls for red dice come out to 15/16 average damage. 4 reds (with spinal) ~3.75 damage

Blues with SW7 are 1 damage. So +2 for 5.5

Blacks with reroll are 1.25. 4 blacks (confire) makes 5 Damage. So 10.75 total. I must have fudged the math.

54 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

No. So, if it could shown that the underlying assumption in your problem statement were true (that the ship could not be prevented from killing any single ship that it chose every game), I would concede that this was bad design. However, your second issue statement not only assumes ideal tactical conditions, but also handwaves away counterplay--either tactical or in the form of non-token defenses like Lando and Admonition--which I think undermines your point significantly.

I mean, you're basically saying "let's assume there was nothing you could do to prevent this thing that is balanced by the possibility of preventing it. Is that broken?"

Because counterplay is possible, BTvenger is not an example of bad design so much as one of "upping the ante" on your tactical play: if you avoid that shot well, it goes a long way toward defeating that build as it does not hit particularly hard out past close, nor does it sport Gunnery Teams, XI7, or any other common bugaboos. If you do not avoid that shot well, you're ******.

Defense Tokens are a great element of this game, but they are not the be-all-end-all of what makes it good.

I've always disliked that I'm more afraid of eating an MC30 or GSD's wrath than an ISD's front arc. This combo gives you the option to remedy that. Parking in Avenger's front arc at close range should be terrifying . Now it is.

Also, why is this in the Rules Forum?

My concern isn't that counterplay doesn't exist for it. Counterplay certainly does exist. I actually think it is reasonably well balanced for the oppurtunity costs you pay to run it. My concern is having a single activation, single stand being able to kill anything under easy to achieve circumstances seems like you are encouraging glass cannons and swarms. You likely end up with less large ships because of this.

The "ideal" conditions are not hard to get. 1st player can be gotten easily(ish) with aggressive bidding and an ISD at speed 3 with Navigate as its first two commands should bring most any large ship to hear in its front arc.

Again, it is only AvengerBT that bothers me. DevastatorBT feels more thematic but isn't as ruthlessly overwhelming. ParagonBT is just sort of adorable compared to those.

As for this being in the rules forum: I thought I dumped it in the general forum. My bad and how do I move it?

24 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Rerolls for red dice come out to 15/16 average damage. 4 reds (with spinal) ~3.75 damage

Blues with SW7 are 1 damage. So +2 for 5.5

Blacks with reroll are 1.25. 4 blacks (confire) makes 5 Damage. So 10.75 total. I must have fudged the math.

My concern isn't that counterplay doesn't exist for it. Counterplay certainly does exist. I actually think it is reasonably well balanced for the oppurtunity costs you pay to run it. My concern is having a single activation, single stand being able to kill anything under easy to achieve circumstances seems like you are encouraging glass cannons and swarms. You likely end up with less large ships because of this.

The "ideal" conditions are not hard to get. 1st player can be gotten easily(ish) with aggressive bidding and an ISD at speed 3 with Navigate as its first two commands should bring most any large ship to hear in its front arc.

Again, it is only AvengerBT that bothers me. DevastatorBT feels more thematic but isn't as ruthlessly overwhelming. ParagonBT is just sort of adorable compared to those.

As for this being in the rules forum: I thought I dumped it in the general forum. My bad and how do I move it?

One red die rerolled is just over 1 pt damage, up from .75

Relatedly. How do you reroll the reds if you're doing sw7?

Are we assuming Vader? If so, very much a corner case.

35 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

One red die rerolled is just over 1 pt damage, up from .75

Relatedly. How do you reroll the reds if you're doing sw7?

Are we assuming Vader? If so, very much a corner case.

I assumed Vader in mine. I'd never take SW-7 in such a build though: +1/8 damage for 5 points? Nope. Possibly leading shots, but that's a pretty debatable choice too with Vader in there.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

Rerolls for red dice come out to 15/16 average damage. 4 reds (with spinal) ~3.75 damage

Blues with SW7 are 1 damage. So +2 for 5.5

Blacks with reroll are 1.25. 4 blacks (confire) makes 5 Damage. So 10.75 total. I must have fudged the math.

My concern isn't that counterplay doesn't exist for it. Counterplay certainly does exist. I actually think it is reasonably well balanced for the oppurtunity costs you pay to run it. My concern is having a single activation, single stand being able to kill anything under easy to achieve circumstances seems like you are encouraging glass cannons and swarms. You likely end up with less large ships because of this.

The "ideal" conditions are not hard to get. 1st player can be gotten easily(ish) with aggressive bidding and an ISD at speed 3 with Navigate as its first two commands should bring most any large ship to hear in its front arc.

Again, it is only AvengerBT that bothers me. DevastatorBT feels more thematic but isn't as ruthlessly overwhelming. ParagonBT is just sort of adorable compared to those.

As for this being in the rules forum: I thought I dumped it in the general forum. My bad and how do I move it?

No worries, but I don't think you can move it... Maybe just repost there if you want more commentary?

I feel like you're overvaluing defense tokens in your analysis. Yes, shutting down all of the defense tokens and then delivering a big shot is a huge deal, but really only against opponents with one big cornerstone ship for their lists, AND who don't have an alternative plan to defend that ship against this.

And, since you mentioned the setup maneuver, one such plan is to prevent that ISD from getting into position with blocking, kiting, out-maneuvering, tractor beams, slicer tools, etc. Sure, if the other guy just lines up and obligingly trundles toward Avenger, it should be pretty straightforward to get that kill shot and punish him for poor maneuvering. It is WAY easier to prevent Avenger from getting this positioning than the small torpedo boats, though.

As for your concern vis a vis this endangering large ships: I think it's just another point in the ever-increasingly complex threat/counter-threat meta. I don't think we need to be too concerned for the other large ships unless you start running into tourneys that are all activation-stalling high-bid BTvengers--in which case, the guy who brought bombers or MSU is going to clean house, driving down the numbers of BTvengers in the future.

But, that's been my opinion on a lot of things that get the forum all up in arms, so maybe I'm just a... what's the opposite of an alarmist?

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

But, that's been my opinion on a lot of things that get the forum all up in arms, so maybe I'm just a... what's the opposite of an alarmist?

Realist?

I also think that BTvenger threat is overblown. Even with last/first ISD1 is no maneuverable enough to be unescapable. And the damage output is not big enough to instakill a large ship (esp a Motti ISD), and other ships were instakilled by ISD1 even before. So yes, it's a threat that needs to be reckoned with, but the sky isn't falling.

1 minute ago, PT106 said:

Realist?

I also think that BTvenger threat is overblown. Even with last/first ISD1 is no maneuverable enough to be unescapable. And the damage output is not big enough to instakill a large ship (esp a Motti ISD), and other ships were instakilled by ISD1 even before. So yes, it's a threat that needs to be reckoned with, but the sky isn't falling.

Agreed. It's good, but it requires a lot of set up to pull off, and it will only get to do this once in the game, and its probable that you'll end up trading the ISD back (by taking damage on the way in and out) and so you better kill a pretty hefty ship.

It's very powerful, but there is definitely counter play to it.

Glad I, Intel Officer, Engine techs, Ordnance Experts, Expanded Launchers, Demolisher.

Reliably triple taps all but Motti ISD.

Seemed to have been forgotten.

46 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Glad I, Intel Officer, Engine techs, Ordnance Experts, Expanded Launchers, Demolisher.

Reliably triple taps all but Motti ISD.

Seemed to have been forgotten.

Yep, or a triple tap from an MC30 with H9's, OE, and either ACM or APT. good enough to send nearly any Imperial ship to the graveyard.

19 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I get the impression the insta-death Avenger was always something they wanted to happen using MSU/Bomber/and Long range fleets as a hard counter to it.

The nerfs to TRCs, Rieekan, and Rhymer, (and lifeboats), corresponding with the release of BTs, probably a large reason for all the AvengeBT fear.

5 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Glad I, Intel Officer, Engine techs, Ordnance Experts, Expanded Launchers, Demolisher.

Reliably triple taps all but Motti ISD.

Seemed to have been forgotten.

The point of the original posting mentioned a ship blowing an enemy in a single activation. Demo requires at least two.

As for maneuvering an ISD, Jerry for the win, plus nav spam.

And BTVenger is awesome, and I want mores ISD titles. Specially Chimaera.

1 minute ago, Darth Lupine said:

The point of the original posting mentioned a ship blowing an enemy in a single activation. Demo requires at least two.

As for maneuvering an ISD, Jerry for the win, plus nav spam.

And BTVenger is awesome, and I want mores ISD titles. Specially Chimaera.

BTAvenger requires two. A Last/First. Whats the difference?

18 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

But, that's been my opinion on a lot of things that get the forum all up in arms, so maybe I'm just a... what's the opposite of an alarmist?

Ard, it's literally the end of the world.

To the OP, I still think this combo is BS. As I have stated before, it's very easy to make a 7 activation fleet. ISD I Avenger, BT, LS, JJ. Glad I, Demo, OE, APT. 2 FT Raiders. 3 Goz. 17 point bid which is more than double required to win first in my area, and very likely to win first in a lot of tournaments. You have last/first against any fleet with 5 ships with 2 knock out ships. You've got a lot of AA too and with JJ you can have a wide maneuver template. You could even cut FT for a bigger bid.

I hate it and think it's stupid and I expect to see this nonsense at NoVa. That's my take on it. Don't have much more to say.

36 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

BTAvenger requires two. A Last/First. Whats the difference?

When I used it, I only required one, as I flew in such a way as to go last with it, and my target had to fly in range. But generally, yes, good point. Seen that way, I'd actually be more afraid of Demo.

39 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

And BTVenger is awesome, and I want mores ISD titles. Specially Chimaera.

Also Stalker, Tyrant, Judicator, Thuderflare, Conquest... I loved all those named ISDs from Decipher's CCG. I still have them infact. I love that game!

Just now, Archangelion said:

Also Stalker, Tyrant, Judicator, Thuderflare, Conquest... I loved all those named ISDs from Decipher's CCG. I still have them infact. I love that game!

I want all of Thrawns squadron, and Pellaeon and Thrawn too.

9 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

I want all of Thrawns squadron, and Pellaeon and Thrawn too.

Thrawn as the Commander and Pellaeon as the Captain... that'll end well! ?

1 minute ago, Archangelion said:

Thrown as the Commander and Pellaeon as the Captain... that'll end well! ?

I can hear the cries of OP coming from the rebels now! ???

What is a BTAvenger/AvengerBT? I understand that the Avenger is a ship title, but no idea what BT is being used for?

1 minute ago, CDAT said:

What is a BTAvenger/AvengerBT? I understand that the Avenger is a ship title, but no idea what BT is being used for?

Boarding Troopers

Thank you.

Its a good setup no doubt. But theres still one problem with it, its an ISD. You need to be facing them with your front arc, you need to be in close range to trigger BT. ISD2 is pretty consistent because it can fire all dices at mid range. Keeping a target in your front arc close range as an ISD is not always easy if your enemy fly well. It also cost you gunnery team, which its pretty big on ISDs. Its really just making the ISD a less nimble, less relibable, much more durable gladiator. If you can get a close range tap as an ISD, chance are you would have easily got the tripple tap with the demolisher in a similar situation.

Again not saying its not good, because it actually is, ISD needs to be on the table as much as possible to begin with. I rather they give some upgrades to buff Home one if anything, because i want to see it on the tables again as well. But again as good as BTavenger is, its still a close range only ability and it cost an ISD gunnery team, which under any other situation is pretty much a mandatory upgrade for the ship. Its a freaking huge trade off.