9 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

I don't think that it is out of line, especially within the L5R communnity. We speak about a community where members of a clan decided to not play against each other in a tournament and decide games with coins.

If two players who established themselves as hatamoto and met in the finals of worlds and decided to solve the game with a coin flip I really wouldn't care.....but FFG is likely not going to allow that because they are running a tighter ship and learning from past mistakes. Yet you seem to be arguing against maintaining the very structure FFG is trying to put into the game that AEG left out.

Allowing everyone to just pick their own roll just changes the nature of the whining. Instead of "whaaaaa we can't pick out own role" we get "whaaa x role is too good and everyone picks it so all the games are x ring mirror matches and one battle just blows the game apart......."

How is that better?

I mean the Hatamoto is not picked randomly. If they are paying to travel, practicing to get good, staying loyal to a clan and winning in the tournaments I think that's a pretty good way to pick representatives for the clan. That all seems like a great gauge to figure out whether someone is invested in the game.

That said it seems like even at the regional level events they will be assigning Hatamoto in some way and they rarely require travel out of state for most areas in the USA. So it seems entirely possible for you to be a local player only and still be awarded the title. Not sure how it's gonna be in other countries.

1 minute ago, Buhallin said:

No, he's not. Even if you want to define superior as simply "better player", the winners are nothing but the players who could get to the event and had a good day. The cost inherent in travelling to such limited events is the first filter, not quality - the best player who clears that filter is the best of the leftovers. This idea that these events somehow picks based on skill as the first differentiator is fictional. Comfortable fiction, sure, but still fiction.

But in terms of "someone who can order me around", which is how you used it - no. Just... no. No single player (or 7) should be in the position of dictating what everyone else in the game is allowed to play and use.

I disagree. A samurai who reports directly to the Shogun is clearly in a superior position in the hierarchy than us rank-and-file samurai. No, they don't have the authority to just order you to do whatever they want, but FFG has already said they'll be delegated the authority to pick a role card for their clan to use in organized play. So, you have three options:

1. Win yourself, so that you can be the one ordering the clan around.

2. Get used to the idea of someone else ordering you around.

3. Don't participate in official tournaments.

Personally, I'll probably go with 3, but that's just me.

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I disagree. A samurai who reports directly to the Shogun is clearly in a superior position in the hierarchy than us rank-and-file samurai. No, they don't have the authority to just order you to do whatever they want, but FFG has already said they'll be delegated the authority to pick a role card for their clan to use in organized play. So, you have three options:

1. Win yourself, so that you can be the one ordering the clan around.

2. Get used to the idea of someone else ordering you around.

3. Don't participate in official tournaments.

Personally, I'll probably go with 3, but that's just me.

I will do it like the Agasha. If my clan superiors makes ideotic choices, I'll switch clan for the coming tournaments.

That also worked for the Yasuki.

4 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

If two players who established themselves as hatamoto and met in the finals of worlds and decided to solve the game with a coin flip I really wouldn't care.....but FFG is likely not going to allow that because they are running a tighter ship and learning from past mistakes. Yet you seem to be arguing against maintaining the very structure FFG is trying to put into the game that AEG left out.

Allowing everyone to just pick their own roll just changes the nature of the whining. Instead of "whaaaaa we can't pick out own role" we get "whaaa x role is too good and everyone picks it so all the games are x ring mirror matches and one battle just blows the game apart......."

How is that better?

I don't think that this is the case. Different clans have different ring-priorities and this is actually easier to design cards around, simply because the decisions are made within known parametas.

8 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

FFG has already said they'll be delegated the authority to pick a role card for their clan to use in organized play.

A few things about the Hatamotos:

1. Hatamoto is just title that is being awarded for doing well with a clan a tournament. Many Hatamoto titles are going to be awarded. It's not just 7 people.

2. For the Role selection specifically, from the OP info :

Quote

The top finisher from each clan will choose which Keeper or Seeker role their clanmates around the world will include in their decks until the next year's Winter Court.

These people may, or may not be a previous clan Hatamotos. It is just the 7 top performers for each clan regardless of how well they actually do in the overall tournament.

3 minutes ago, phillos said:

That also worked for the Yasuki.

And it worked out quite well!

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I disagree. A samurai who reports directly to the Shogun is clearly in a superior position in the hierarchy than us rank-and-file samurai. No, they don't have the authority to just order you to do whatever they want, but FFG has already said they'll be delegated the authority to pick a role card for their clan to use in organized play. So, you have three options:

1. Win yourself, so that you can be the one ordering the clan around.

2. Get used to the idea of someone else ordering you around.

3. Don't participate in official tournaments.

And these choices are exactly why it's an idiotic system.

19 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

No, he's not. Even if you want to define superior as simply "better player", the winners are nothing but the players who could get to the event and had a good day. The cost inherent in travelling to such limited events is the first filter, not quality - the best player who clears that filter is the best of the leftovers. This idea that these events somehow picks based on skill as the first differentiator is fictional. Comfortable fiction, sure, but still fiction.

But in terms of "someone who can order me around", which is how you used it - no. Just... no. No single player (or 7) should be in the position of dictating what everyone else in the game is allowed to play and use.

Sure - there is a filter of "who could make it" that can eliminate potentially skilled players from taking the title. There is also the fact that going to these events is part of what makes a world class player. Being the best at your store, even winning unfavorable match ups often does not make you better if you aren't exposed to the various metas and tactics that abound in the global environment. The best of the players who can regularly attend major tournaments are typically the best players there are by virtue of having the most experience playing against the best players.

This is why programs like gempukku and octgn are important even if not officially endorsed. They allow players seeking experience to play with a larger pool of players. imo - competitive card games need to start releasing a mirrored digital version that they make and sanction to facilitate more skilled play, more regular large events, and reduce the limiting factor of travel from titles like world champion.

It's a pipe dream - but I'd love it if there were an official L5R LCG digital platform for PC that could allow me to play any deck against any player online at any time.

Just now, Buhallin said:

And these choices are exactly why it's an idiotic system.

Agree to disagree.

4 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

A few things about the Hatamotos:

1. Hatamoto is just title that is being awarded for doing well with a clan a tournament. Many Hatamoto titles are going to be awarded. It's not just 7 people.

2. For the Role selection specifically, from the OP info :

These people may, or may not be a previous clan Hatamotos. It is just the 7 top performers for each clan regardless of how well they actually do in the overall tournament.

Thanks for the clarification! I confess that I didn't spend as much time going the organized play stuff as I did much of the other information!

Though, the point still stands; just replace "Hatamoto" with "guy in your clan who ranked high at the big event".

My personal enjoyment out of all this is actually down to the Hatamoto system. The changes in seeker or keeper status may influence people lower in the clan to jump ship, but if they influence a Hatamoto then they cease being one. And while that might not matter to some, it will to others.

It also creates a space for certain individuals to be either open and come to a clan consensus over what they feel would be their best direction to go, or is someone gonna be tyrannical and just take it? Sometimes in life, when in a system larger than yourself you have to accept decisions you don't like from on high...

It adds a wonderful dimension of flavour and almost a role playing aspect of being in and representing an actual clan.

On top of being a rad way of adding 3 influence to the deck. When I'm Scorpion Hatamoto, we'll be doing a lot of that.

#makeinfluencegreatagain

20 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

2. For the Role selection specifically, from the OP info :

These people may, or may not be a previous clan Hatamotos. It is just the 7 top performers for each clan regardless of how well they actually do in the overall tournament.

*They are the 7 top performersfor each clan, from worlds*

21 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Sure - there is a filter of "who could make it" that can eliminate potentially skilled players from taking the title. There is also the fact that going to these events is part of what makes a world class player. Being the best at your store, even winning unfavorable match ups often does not make you better if you aren't exposed to the various metas and tactics that abound in the global environment. The best of the players who can regularly attend major tournaments are typically the best players there are by virtue of having the most experience playing against the best players.

You're basically just saying that the filter is even bigger. It's not just "Can I make it to that one big event?" but "Can I make it to a bunch of big events?"

Whether you prefer the chicken or the egg at that point is irrelevant. The primary filter is financial, not skill.

25 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

I don't think that this is the case. Different clans have different ring-priorities and this is actually easier to design cards around, simply because the decisions are made within known parametas.

Then what does it matter? If the ring roles are clearly defined then the clans should naturally gravitate to one or two rings and Phoenix choosing Seeker of the Void wouldn't matter to Crab for example if they are tied to.......I dunno let's say earth.

Honestly I don't even know what you're point is any more? Not trying to be snippy, I've seriously lost track with all the flip flop. Please recap your point.

12 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

*They are the 7 top performersfor each clan, from worlds*

Yes, but that person's overall place at Worlds is irrelevant to if they get to opportunity to choose.

If we use the GoT data from Worlds 2016, roughly 178 people attended Worlds. In an ideal world, there would be a top performer from each Clan in the Top 16 or maybe even the Top 8. However, that seems unlikely to happen. What is more likely is maybe the best Crab or Phoenix (not trying to pick on any Clan in-particular, these are just examples) player ends up placing 45th or 38th out of 178. That person now gets to pick a Role for their Clan for the rest of the year.

8 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

You're basically just saying that the filter is even bigger. It's not just "Can I make it to that one big event?" but "Can I make it to a bunch of big events?"

Whether you prefer the chicken or the egg at that point is irrelevant. The primary filter is financial, not skill.

Agree to disagree on this.

In a perfect world we would all play every event and get free cards to play with so we could have a true champion that has proven themselves the best. This is simply not possible so well have to settle for those that are dedicated enough to put their money and time into it and emerge as the top performer of their clan, I'm ok with them getting a choice that I likely would have made anyways if I had places the same for that clan.

Weather I could have done better and earned a better opportunity to pick roles or if I'm a better player or not is moot. Imo

6 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

Yes, but that person's overall place at Worlds is irrelevant to if they get to opportunity to choose.

If we use the GoT data from Worlds 2016, roughly 178 people attended Worlds. In an ideal world, there would be a top performer from each Clan in the Top 16 or maybe even the Top 8. However, that seems unlikely to happen. What is more likely is maybe the best Crab or Phoenix (not trying to pick on any Clan in-particular, these are just examples) player ends up placing 45th or 38th out of 178. That person now gets to pick a Role for their Clan for the rest of the year.

Sorry to be blunt here but so what?

That player is dedicated and or good enough to make it to worlds and I was not. What gripe should I have about them making a choice I likely would have made if I had been in their spot instead?

Just now, Ishi Tonu said:

Sorry to be blunt here but so what?

That player is dedicated and or good enough to make it to worlds and I was not. What gripe should I have about them making a choice I likely would have made if I had been in their spot instead?

It runs counter to the narrative that only top players are making Role decisions. Going to FFG Worlds has more to do with being able to buy a ticket and having time off than anything else. This isn't the MTG Pro Tour or something.

28 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

You're basically just saying that the filter is even bigger. It's not just "Can I make it to that one big event?" but "Can I make it to a bunch of big events?"

Whether you prefer the chicken or the egg at that point is irrelevant. The primary filter is financial, not skill.

What do you think the filter looks like for competitive success? Do you think balling in your back yard against the scrubs in your culdesac is gonna get you into the NBA?

If you want to be the best then you have to study the game, practice it, take coaching, and then build experience by visiting larger events so that you can be equipped to deal with the highest level of the meta.

You can call it a "chicken or the egg" situation if you want, but the real chicken / egg situation is that you need to invest time and money to become great enough to win large events. If you don't invest time and money, either because you don't have it or don't want to, then you aren't going to be as good as someone who has.

6 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

It runs counter to the narrative that only top players are making Role decisions. Going to FFG Worlds has more to do with being able to buy a ticket and having time off than anything else. This isn't the MTG Pro Tour or something.

Top player in each clan . The top Crab player could be 107th overall. That doesn't change the fact that he still finished ahead of all other Crab players at the event.

Thinking it over I am actually really interested to see a year if hate drafts.

The Lion become the Keeper of the void seeking one Ness with everything. The Crab seek the voids wisdom, both clans becoming more introspective.

The Dragon take seekers of air and travel the lands spreading knowledge and currying favor from their neighbors.

The Crane taking fire, a warlord leading them from one battle to another.

I can't think of anything else. But I am okay with the flavor.

Just now, JJ48 said:

Top player in each clan . The top Crab player could be 107th overall. That doesn't change the fact that he still finished ahead of all other Crab players at the event.

I mentioned that already. What if there are only 10 or so Crab players there? 10 people competing for the potential to shape deck construction for an entire year doesn't strike you as a somewhat odd choice?

I'm certainly willing to give the system a chance and I'm quite eager to see how the whole thing plays out because it is so different, but I think for some people the idea that a person making a choice in November 2017 means you can't use certain cards in a June 2018 event is going to be bit confusing especially to new players who maybe are just getting into a LCG.

Additionally, with the Initiate cards they've previewed, FFG has already shown they are going to design cards around having access to the Roles. It doesn't seem unlikely to me that a Clan will get access to a certain Role card that could potentially lead to some imbalance or maybe a Clan will not have access to something that might be really helpful for them. The whole thing is just very experimental, I think, and certainly not without flaws.

25 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Agree to disagree on this.

In a perfect world we would all play every event and get free cards to play with so we could have a true champion that has proven themselves the best. This is simply not possible so well have to settle for those that are dedicated enough to put their money and time into it and emerge as the top performer of their clan, I'm ok with them getting a choice that I likely would have made anyways if I had places the same for that clan.

Weather I could have done better and earned a better opportunity to pick roles or if I'm a better player or not is moot. Imo

Disagreeing doesn't make Buhallin wrong, however.

Literally the only reason I cannot go to Worlds is because I cannot afford it. How I would place at the tournament, were I to go, is irrelevant. I don't get to (potentially) make decisions for my clan because I don't have the money. This isn't an opinion to be disagreed with.