There was some discussion a while back here about Elder Mok where the consensus was that his ability works on every heroes turn. I don't see that as the way it works from how I'm reading things. Has there been any direct answer on this one from FFG? Maybe one of the email responses some of you have that you could share?
Elder Mok
Assuming you're referring to the updated Mok (hero and monster pack, "Once per turn, when another hero within 3 spaces of you recovers..." it can indeed be triggered multiple times in a round.
It is not in dispute that the structure is
Hero turn
Hero turn
Hero turn
Hero turn
OL turn
And that all of the above (together) constitutes a round. So each hero has a turn, and the OL has a turn. Mok's ability could trigger once during each turn.
Right, it says once per turn. Why is the interpretation of that once per [each player] turn as opposed to once per [Mok's] turn? Seems like you could argue for either.
I'm asking if there is a direct clarification from ffg on this that anyone has.
I don't think it is an interpretation, it is the definition, by RAW, of what a TURN is.
Never the less, if you think we are wrong, and are looking for formal confirmation, please send in a question via this link:
Once you get a response, please copy it within this thread !
Sent. I'll post if they respond. I'm not sure it's truly RAW the way you are reading it. In Descent, isn't the overall grouping of everyone going a round, not a turn? A turn is the repeating segment of each round that each hero goes in individually, plus the overlord. So, saying something works once per turn makes me ask in this case "sure, but WHO's turn"?
Since there are multiple turns in a round, why the assumption that the way it is written is that it works during any turn, instead of assuming it works only during Mok's turn?
It's obvious the original worked anytime since the language from the conversion kit is "
Each time another hero within 3 spaces of you recovers 1 or more
, you recover 1
. Each time another hero within 3 spaces of you recovers 1 or more
, you recover 1
." Very cut and tried, works regardless of timing of who's turn it is, and can happen multiple times per hero. Also obvious, they did some rebalancing. They added a limiter. I just want to be sure that limiter is once per each hero/ol turn as you're saying, or has it been rebalanced to be only once on Mok's turn.
This is not proof, but just as a note:
There are a number of abilities which are phrased "Once during YOUR turn..." or "During YOUR turn...limit once per round". Which would both cause Mok's ability to be limited the way you're imagining. Neither was used.
Edited by Zaltyre2 minutes ago, Zaltyre said:This is not proof, but just as a note:
There are a number of abilities which are phrased "Once during YOUR turn..." or "During YOUR turn...limit once per round". Which would both cause Mok's ability to be limited the way you're imagining. Neither was used.
Do you remember some examples off the top of your head of ones that specify that? With the conversion kit intent, plus the argument that if it was meant to be limited it would have the YOUR added like other abilities do, I'm comfortable saying it works during any turn. With such a powerful ability it's always better to have clarity. To much 40K in the past is probably the real problem here
Sure, give me a little while to make a short list.
Unseen
Bushwhack
Lurk
(most of the bard's skills)
Prayer of Healing
Soothing Insight
Brew Elixir
Quick Recovery
Trailblazer
Channeling
Mirror Image
Sir Valadir's hero ability (relevant if he can attack outside his turn, such as with "Guard")
Nanok of the Blade (updated version)
High Mage Quellen hero ability
Dezra the Vile hero ability
Okaluk and Rakash hero ability
Ispher hero ability
Sahla hero ability
...I'll stop here.
Edited by Zaltyre
Are there any examples where it says "any" turn? Or is every instance of turn specificity either "your" turn, or just on a turn?
I think Arvel Worldwalker pretty clearly shows that they use "your" when that timing is specified, vs just plain "round" or "turn" when it doesn't have to be during that particular heroes turn. I'm convinced that unless there are abilities that specify "any turn", unless it says "your" in front of turn it means any/every turn.
Edited by Kaaihn@Kaaihn Raythen's ability does not say *any* turn, but it would be extremely situational (if even entirely useless, except for using it on himself) if it only worked on his turn.
Edited by Lightningclaw3 hours ago, Lightningclaw said:@Kaaihn Raythen's ability does not say *any* turn, but it would be extremely situational (if even entirely useless, except for using it on himself) if it only worked on his turn.
Yeah, I noticed that. The wording on Syndrael becomes interesting. Following the logic it sounds like as long as Syndrael doesn't move on any given turn, he would recover 2 stamina at the end of his turn for every turn that passes where he doesn't move. Syndrael as a Knight can easily get an attack and then a move on other heroes turns, so it is possible that he is indeed meant to get 2 stamina recovery for every turn that passes that he doesn't move, not just his own.
I do see that logic. However, her hero ability includes a word ("this" turn) that I don't believe is ever used on any other ability timings. (Can't check that, since I'm not home right now.)
"This turn" is ambiguous, in the light of this discussion, I think. If the intent were for her to qualify for the fatigue recovery if she hasn't moved during any turn, it would perhaps just say "at the end of a turn". Which would be nearly guaranteed in a 4 hero game.
Ah, consistency...
Edit: Just noting I believe her hero ability only checks if she's moved on her turn, not any turn. RAI, anyways.
Edited by LightningclawSyndrael's ability definitely only triggers at the end of her own turn.
While I think the wording indeed gives more credence to each turn being available, I think Elder Mok is still much too strong that way.
Compare for example Quellen and Elder Mok.
Both have the same 4; 10; 4; grey spread.
Both have a recovery ability.
Both are relatively easy to trigger (healing, which healers do almost every round and being near to a hero with fatigue, which is also very common).
Now Quellen gets to potentially recover two fatigue, but with a much less easily achievable condition (a hero being completely fatigued), but Mok gets to choose whether he recovers life OR Stamina, which of course is very useful.
You could also take the heroic feats into consideration for this of course.
I think though it would be hard to make a case that Mok looses out here so much that he deserves a much stronger ability. There are very few things that mess with the Overlord's hand of cards, Mok gets to both see all of them AND discard one.
And Elder Mok has a very easy time getting his ability to trigger several times.
He can trigger it once when he heals another hero (only really hampered by occasionally healing himself) and each time a hero close to him rests, recovers fatigue through a surge or uses any other ability that allows him to recover life or fatigue.
All of this really adds up.
And with things like the Bard's ability, it gets even crazier, as it could now be two fatigue recovered each time he triggers it.
Granted this is more a problem of the Bard just being a bit too strong, but I think Mok should not get this amount of recovery on top of a very strong heroic feat.
With how some Healer classes work, I think it would be most balanced to have his ability working once per round (only on his turn just makes the apothecary an unworkable pick), but once every round is making him considerably stronger and I really, really do not like Heroes or monsters being made so good that other options are no longer worth picking.
The more balanced things are, the more interesting choices you have.
I would rather see all sorts of heroes being played than having Elder Mok being the healer in almost every game played (and that is not because he just is someone's personal favourite).
1 hour ago, Zaltyre said:
Excellent, that definitively answers that. Thanks for finding and linking, Zaltyre!