I decided to run with this thought experiment that got started inside the replies of the faq "leak" thread. One of the complaints for being stuck with standard play was that some beloved ships have no place in HotAC.

Enter Pirates of the Aturi Cluster - a cooperative campaign for the Scum & Villainy faction using the basic HotAC AI mechanics and terrain, combined with some additional AI/pilot cards for some rebel ships and potentially some scum ships.

Here's my thought process so far:

Starting ships would be the m3a "heavy scyk", the Kirhaxz/Vaksai, or the Ywing.

At PS4, you could move to the G1A or HWK. Also available at ps6 is viper mk2, firespray, or YV. Large base ships would count as 2 players for AI count.

Viper would have the mk2 title baked in. Same for the heavy scyk and the Kirahxz would get a modified Vaksai title - get a bonus mod slot and EPT/pilot ability cannot be discounted.

Mindlink would either be out of the game or in dedicated pairs of ships.

Any other concerns or ideas? I've drafted the first two possible story arc outlines (nothing detailed yet so don't ask).

4 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Starting ships would be the m3a "heavy scyk" or the Ywing. At PS4, you could move to the G1A, Starviper, HWK, or Kirahxz. There's some discussion about large base ships like the firespray or YV and how they fit into the game process. If they were allowed I'd say they need to cost more to switch into and the AI has to treat them like 2 enemies for determining the number of hostile.

It'd take a bit of planning, but I'd strongly recommend this. Bounty Hunters are in many ways the iconic 'thing' of Scum and Villainy and being able to field the iconic Bounty Hunter ships makes this version much different to the Imperial and Rebel versions.

Alternatively, split things; have 'pirates' be a small ship version and a 'hunters' be a large ship version, with people starting out in a YV-666....

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Viper would have the mk2 title baked in. Same for the heavy scyk and the Kirahxz would get a modified Vaksai title. It allows one or two additional mod slots on the K but will NOT offer a point discount in PotAC.

Both makes sense and doesn't.

Viper mk2, definitely. The extra manoeuvrability makes the ship really shine. The more important question is whether it's going to have the virago title baked in. You need the Starviper Mk2 card, because it has rules on it, whilst the Virago title is a simple trade of points for upgrade slots and can be incorporated on the player sheet with no explanatory text needed.

The Khiraxz 'extra mods' is probably massively less valuable in Aturi Cluster games since buying up PS gives you those anyway, and if you don't have enough xp to buy up pilot skill....you probably don't have enough to justify splurging on full-price upgrades to your ship either . If anything, I'd do it the other way around; keep the upgrade discount and lose the free mods.

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Also, if anybody wants to get cute with a mindlink squad, I was thinking of allowing it but changing the wording for PotAC to "when you take a focus action, you may instead assign a focus token to a friendly ship who does not have one. If you take a stress, you must also assign one friendly that does not have a stress a stress". Something to make.it cool for assist XP but still drive the power curve back down. Any other ships that can come aboard that won't break the curve?

If you're pricing the ship accordingly, the Protectorate 'Fang' is not bad. It's the combination of title and named pilot abilities that make it truly terrifying; and with Fenn Rau's ability up at PS9, by the time it's available you could already have made a truly disgusting ship with other abilities.

WRT attain mindlink, a big part of the point of it is that it connects you and you ; namely that it isn't an open-ended net. Having to have multiple Attani Mindlinks are important to it not just becoming a focus-factory character. My thoughts would be to either:

• Make you take dedicated Attani Mindlink 'pairs' - it's not a case of everyone with the ability benefits everyone else, but these two ships share tokens. That puts the points cost to 2 points* for a free token (the same as outlaw tech or targeting astromech) with the downsides relative to the 3-point versions (like recon specialist or k4 security droid) that it's a) potentially passing stress and b) taking up two slots, not one.
• Increase the cost. Attani Mindlink with its current rules is powerful because it's so bloody cheap. Because it requires multiple copies to work, though, increasing the cost to 2 points means you've increased the cost of your mindlink net by the number of players, and so on.

* If I remember right EPTs cost more than other upgrades, but the point still stands because you're comparing to Push The Limit or Intensity.

We've been running this as MotAC - "Mercenaries of the Aturi Cluster." Standard HotAC missions with S&V ships. We used Y-Wing, Z95 (with custom titles), and Kihraxz as the starting ships. Even with the new Vaksai title, the Kihraxz is still a *very* challenging ship to fly - we allowed full extra Modification slots, but points reduction only applies to Mods and not to EPT's, No one took an M3-A, so I don't have any anecdotes as to its utility; the G1-A is just fine. Actually, the G1-A is not quite as good as the B-Wing, just like in normal play, ha ha. And the StarViper is, frankly, a little OP - four missions into using it, and someone finally managed to scratch the paint. The 'Viper, Protectorate, and any large bases are allowed only at PS6 and above. We allow all titles baked in, plus developed a number of custom titles.

And of course we are using the Scum pilot abilities instead of the Rebels. Which has also pointed out how poor most of the Scum pilot abilities in fact are. There certainly as many broken synergies as in standard HotAC, and nowhere near as many available abilities.

I'm running a 'Viper with Guri/IG88-C/titles/AdvSens/ScavCrane/APT/Stealth (because at PS6 we ruled to access either a Mod or an extra Illicit). Another pilot is flying a G1-A with Laetin/Sarco and it's hilarious - a G1-A regularly rolling three and four defense dice with as many as three Evade tokens by the end of the round. We both started with Kihraxz fighters and managed, with judicious management of Mod slots, to rack up some solid numbers in early missions and get into our favored ships early. Another pilot started with a Kihraxz but switched to a Y because he kept blowing up. Like, a lot. And our number four is still flying the same pair of Headhunters he started with - he has a clear plan and upgrade path from which he will not deviate, in spite of the fact that he has not yet had a mission in which both ships survived.

All in all, it is great fun. Every bit as much fun as the original HotAC, which our group has finished twice already. We are homebrewing and testing Scum-specific missions (Mercenaries hired to raid a rival Cartel, etc.). I highly recommend it, if you've already had too much fun with HotAC. Although.... We were thinking of trying something completely and totally different when we finish MotAC, which we are near to doing, but maybe we try HotAC or MotAC starting with Interceptors (A-Wing of M3-A) right from the start and not allowing any switching until PS6. Hmmm....

Anyhow. Long live fly casual, and fly Scummy!

11 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

We've been running this as MotAC - "Mercenaries of the Aturi Cluster." Standard HotAC missions with S&V ships. We used Y-Wing, Z95 (with custom titles), and Kihraxz as the starting ships.

I'd be very interested in seeing any AI developed for the non-imperial ships and know more about those custom Z95s. Sounds like a whole lot of fun and you're way ahead of me in this regard!

For the other post - not sure if I'd put Virago slot stuff into the viper or leave it as basic. I could see trying the Vaksai as described by Kleeg. The large base ships like firespray or YV I'd really want to get into the game, perhaps at a higher XP cost to upgrade and the knowledge there's now "more players" so the AI will act like that ship is 2 players for number count.

I like the idea of mindlink pairing. I may just end up throwing it on the "no" list since it's contrary to the fluff to have it anyway. The fang fighter I was worried about becoming OP, though I suppose without a focus generator it wouldn't be nearly as scary.

Of course, scum pilot abilities only for this campaign.

Here is a link where you can get rebel AI and Elite.

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/135532/defenders-empire

From the Imperial campaign I am doing.

We tested large base ships as counting as two ships for AI placement, and that seemed to work well. I have heard that some groups using large bases assign one AI Squad as strike versus the large base, but that sounds too harsh to me. We toyed with requiring 10 points and PS6 to but up to large base, which seems okay, but it already costs so much to kit out a big boy that 10 points buy-in may in fact be prohibitively punitive.

There is a Facebook group dedicated to HotAC which has a lot of great resources, including links to files with variations on Rebel and Scum AI. I don't have those links or access to them right now, but give the group a look; should be easy enough to locate.

Starting Z95 come in two flavors in our system "Heavy" or "Mindlinked." The Heavy variant starts with and extra Hull and a crew slot. No one tried that one, so I can't speak to its utility. The Mindlink variant begins with two base Z95's and a free Mindlink for each ship. As yet, no one has opted to get in on our Twinner's Mindlink - if one is not controlling all ships in the 'Link, it's far too easy get in trouble with stress. And as I said earlier, even with two spaceframes counting as only one ship to the AI, they are sufficiently fragile to be balanced, if not a little weak.

We also brewed up a "Longprobe" title for the Y-Wing, which removed the Turret slot entirely, but granted a Systems and a Crew slot. Again, no one took that, so I can't speak directly to it, but it certainly seems like it ought to be balanced.

And any ship about which you have balance concerns - StarViper, Fang - just say it's not available until PS6. That gives the AI time to become natively harsh enough to deal with a stronger spaceframe.

I'd be ask for the vaksai being a starting ship - so there's something out there that can start with an illicit and a normal 3 attack gun.

I know this breaks your usual pattern... But Scum have so many funky options I suspect this is somewhat inevitable anyway. ?

I think the Vaksai is going to be moved to a starting ship option.

In rough HotAC terms, I can see the m3a being the Awing, the G1A the bwing, the Vaksai the T65, and the Hwk and Y being themselves. The viper is just awesome though so I have to find a way to fit it in. The fang is nice too but suffers from being a much later wave ship and thus having more creep built in.

I'll edit the top post for ship line up thoughts.

39 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

We tested large base ships as counting as two ships for AI placement, and that seemed to work well. I have heard that some groups using large bases assign one AI Squad as strike versus the large base, but that sounds too harsh to me. We toyed with requiring 10 points and PS6 to but up to large base, which seems okay, but it already costs so much to kit out a big boy that 10 points buy-in may in fact be prohibitively punitive.

As noted, I'd probably just do a separate "large base" campaign for the Bounty Hunters. if everyone starts in a big ship, big ships are a lot easier to accept.

This sounds fun.

Did anybody try a quadjumper? I feel like it could be a hilarious ship to fly against an AI.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

As noted, I'd probably just do a separate "large base" campaign for the Bounty Hunters. if everyone starts in a big ship, big ships are a lot easier to accept.

I really like that idea. We have one fellow who very much wants to try a Firespray, and I want to take it all the way to 11 and use a C-ROC. Because that would be a laugh and a half.

14 minutes ago, Elavion said:

This sounds fun.

Did anybody try a quadjumper? I feel like it could be a hilarious ship to fly against an AI.

We made it available, but no one decided to bite. What with the AI's propensity for focus fire and all.

7 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

I really like that idea. We have one fellow who very much wants to try a Firespray, and I want to take it all the way to 11 and use a C-ROC. Because that would be a laugh and a half.

We made it available, but no one decided to bite. What with the AI's propensity for focus fire and all.

Scurrg, viper, and Protectorate would probably fly pretty well alongside firesprays and YV-666s, come to think of it - you get to be the 'little guys' in a big slugfest ?

14 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I think the Vaksai is going to be moved to a starting ship option.

In rough HotAC terms, I can see the m3a being the Awing, the G1A the bwing, the Vaksai the T65, and the Hwk and Y being themselves. The viper is just awesome though so I have to find a way to fit it in. The fang is nice too but suffers from being a much later wave ship and thus having more creep built in.

I'll edit the top post for ship line up thoughts.

Fang vs heavy Scyk is pretty comparable - one has boost, the other can pack an HLC, but at mangler levels they're pretty much dead even, so it'll be in the combos that life gets interesting. Thematically it's a bit odd you can't start on a Scyk though, I've gotta admit. Perhaps an imperial-esque 'first mission' where you fly a light Scyk or Headhunter and prove your worth? ?

I presume the G1a comes with the title, right?

3 hours ago, Reiver said:

Perhaps an imperial-esque 'first mission' where you fly a light Scyk or Headhunter and prove your worth? ?

Scyk.

Because the obvious first mission would be the battle of Tansarii Point Station....

Honestly I think Scum & Villainy would be better as another Villain faction much like in Imperial Assault campaigns.

Just change the algorathims a little to make the AI act different from Imperials.

• Movement is based on Target Lock token not nearest enemy. If no TL then free action in the planning phase (nearest enemy). Have some agro mechanic to make new free TL actions.
• Bugg out mechanic after take a certain amount of damage (say shields are down)
• Change the priority of actions order emphasizing on evades and avoiding firing arcs instead of attacks and focus.

Those are just an idea. The reward for fightign pirates instead of Imperials, how about a NPC wingman (limit 1 wingman per player)?

• Bandit Squadron Pilot- Headhunter the 1st and easiest wingman to get
• Rookie Pilot- Common X-wing ally
• Iron Squadron Pilot- Uncommon Y-wing pilot
• Test Pilot- Rare difficult to get A-wing wingman
• Dagger Squadron Pilot- Rare B-wing wingman
• Daggermoon Squadron Pilot- Ultra-rare E-wing wingman

Movement is based off Target Lock but player gets to declare target otherwise it mirrors movement at the same pilot skill (if on the same dial). Bugg out mechanic not as quick as Scum but still there. Action priority is more like Imperials focusing on getting attacks then evading. Also persistant mechanic to upgrade or even lose wingman.

2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Honestly I think Scum & Villainy would be better as another Villain faction much like in Imperial Assault campaigns.

Just change the algorathims a little to make the AI act different from Imperials.

While I like the concept ideas, it defeats the purpose of what I'm trying to do. Even in a "rainbows and unicorns world" if we removed any and all power creep and set it to perfect balance, you'd find some people played each faction because that's simply what they like. While I do like the rebel alliance and would (and do) fly as them sometimes, a big part of the lore that I've always enjoyed was those stories that weren't about the rebels nor the galactic empire. The purpose of this concept was a way to "fly casual" and not the competitive meta, while still getting to fly semi-iconic (as far as scum ships go anyway) fighters and transports.

we've been running an all-faction HotAC campaign at our gaming store (as misfit squadron), and have just finished it after 22 missions played (we decided to play all the missions even after we technically won, it was too much fun)

we allowed players 26pts to spend on a small base ship with a Pilot skill of 2 or less (the 26pts also had to include your starting upgrades). Once you picked a faction, you were locked to that faction for the whole campaign.

we allowed large bases ships to be bought as upgrades at PS4 (where we made all ships available as well) at a cost of 10pts. Large based ships counted as two players for generating AI squadrons.

it should also be noted that we had the equivalent of 10 players involved in some games as we had more than 6 players and a couple of large bases in play - we just increased the size of the AI table to account for it

i have to recommend the HotAC Facebook group as there are alot of good extras in there, and we have just posted Misfit Squadron's version of Battle Star Pallas (a HotAC spin-off) as we are about to start a new campaign with even more open rules

oh and we have been mixing Scum ships into the AI deck as well to represent the imperials hiring merc's to try and take us out

I'm familiar with that HotAC page. I'm over there as well, and I'm always saving off missions or AI options that I can for expanding our games.

Currently I'm in the middle of a "any small base ship but a limited ban list" (like Scurrg or Kwing) and rebel pilot abilities only playing the rebel missions from standard HotAC. We are playing "hard" where we treat the AI as if there's an extra one of us, and I added some random decimator pilot cards so those random draws can be a little higher risk! I'm hoping to have this "PotAC" with missions fleshed out enough that when this current campaign winds down I can start up the beta test of scum faction flying.

7 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

While I like the concept ideas, it defeats the purpose of what I'm trying to do. Even in a "rainbows and unicorns world" if we removed any and all power creep and set it to perfect balance, you'd find some people played each faction because that's simply what they like. While I do like the rebel alliance and would (and do) fly as them sometimes, a big part of the lore that I've always enjoyed was those stories that weren't about the rebels nor the galactic empire. The purpose of this concept was a way to "fly casual" and not the competitive meta, while still getting to fly semi-iconic (as far as scum ships go anyway) fighters and transports.

Uh, it was for Campaign, so I don't know what the concern with balance and power creep is?

Now I understand some people want narrative campaigns for Imperials and S&V, and I am sure that there are people on Imperial Assault that want to campaign with some other faction other than Imperials. I just think it is easier to put Scum in as another "villain" faction. That way you don't have to do too much with Rebel AI. I guess you could just fly against Imperials throughout the campaign. I seen many HotAC use scum ships or even make their own "uglies" for their campaign.

On Thursday, August 03, 2017 at 8:01 PM, Elavion said:

This sounds fun.

Did anybody try a quadjumper? I feel like it could be a hilarious ship to fly against an AI.

Probably dies fast, as it is soo slow. My children and I are often flying against the AI as training and for fun. Tested Quadjumper some few times, you have to be careful what you do. And when your teammates are elsewhere and the TIEs are concentrating on you, you definitely have a problem.

6 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Uh, it was for Campaign, so I don't know what the concern with balance and power creep is?

My point with that was that some of the folks playing scum or imperial in standard xwing would be doing so even in a perfectly balanced game, because they like that particular fluff.

I realize the effort is easier to just add them as villains, but I'm specifically looking to fly from their perspective with their ships.

4 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

My point with that was that some of the folks playing scum or imperial in standard xwing would be doing so even in a perfectly balanced game, because they like that particular fluff.

I realize the effort is easier to just add them as villains, but I'm specifically looking to fly from their perspective with their ships.

Jsut fly them in regular campaigns. I see some that do exactly that taking a g1a or even a Scyk into campaign.