Clan Warfare (tournament)

By Nanashi, in Legend of the Five Rings: The Card Game

How about celebrating the game's launch - which is still a couple weeks away, but why not try to organize things early - with an online tournament? The best kind, too - a Clan vs Clan tournament. We'd play a round robin of 7 rounds - 6 games against the other clans and one bye. Each match would use best of 5 or 7 games format, depending on interest. Since this is Clan based people dropping out wouldn't be an issue and new people could hop in at any point, too. Anybody could join, but everybody not joining Scorpion would first have to be screened as a potential false flag saboteur.

Let me make this clear before I'll say anything about potential issues - we should by all means wait until the official launch. The OCTGN topic already outlines why publishing the OCTGN mod before the official launch is a bad idea.

Anyway, the problems I can imagine right now are:

1. Deckbuilding
Are players allowed to modify their decks between the rounds? If yes, how exactly? Not letting people modify anything makes the tournament less 'taxing', as you don't have to figure out how to change your deck between each rounds. On the other hand, if you make suboptimal choices right off the bat not being able to fix your mistakes would be frustrating and might make some people drop out (for the sake of their Clan, too). If we allow replacing cards between rounds some people might be upset about facing a deck build specifically to counter theirs.
If players are able to modify their decks, can their change their splashes?
Also, do we use the Seeker/Keeper Roles, or do we keep a more vanilla ruleset?

2. Scheduling
How long should the rounds be? What should we do about the platform? Obviously OCTGN is free and you should be able to get that, but Tabletop Simulator is not. There are some alternative platforms too. Time zone differences could be problem as well. All things considered though I think it'll work out somehow, if each participant will specify when they're available and which platforms they can use - matchmakers would have to make sure to find the right pairings.

3. Clan loyalty
Oh boy, this will be fun. Should people be allowed to change their Clan? Some of us have been into L5R lore for as many as 2 decades but many are completely new. I know why the former might consider switching banners revolting, but the latter might not yet know which Clan they'd like to stick to and looking to experiment on that front a little. Should we allow them do so? If yes, under what ramifications?

Here's a small poll I've prepared to gauge the interest and check what people think about the issues listed above. The poll is by no means meant to be used as an absolute means to settle these issues though, as some good alternate ideas might be suggested over the course of the discussion.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MYRY626

EDIT:

Off to a good start. I've already forgotten about one important question which should've been included in the poll: If new Dynasty Packs will be published over the course of the tournament, and if we'll settle on a ruleset that will allow deck modification, should players be allowed to add cards from said Dynasty Packs?

There was one response before I managed to get the edit in. If I set things up correctly you should be able to modify your answers. If I did not, and you wish to answer the question please PM me - I'll delete your response and you'll be able to cast another vote. Sorry for the trouble.

Edited by Nanashi
I'm dumb

Depends on interest, I don't know if you'll get enough people for a 6 or 7 round tournament. As for deckbuilding, I am opposed to changing decks between rounds, even over such a long event. I don't know how you would enforce this, as the only way to do so would be for each player to publish their decklist before hand (which I am more opposed to this), and even then a 1-2 card change might not be noticeable. However, allowing changes to decks allows you to tailor your cards to your opponent, which feels rude and against the spirit of competition of a typical tourney. You typically can't change your deck in a paper tourney, why would you get to online?

As for if a dynasty pack comes out, as above, at the very least, you specify the allowed cards, and don't change that.

However, you could pretty fairly kick off this tournament on Launch Day.

20 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Depends on interest, I don't know if you'll get enough people for a 6 or 7 round tournament. As for deckbuilding, I am opposed to changing decks between rounds, even over such a long event. I don't know how you would enforce this, as the only way to do so would be for each player to publish their decklist before hand (which I am more opposed to this), and even then a 1-2 card change might not be noticeable. However, allowing changes to decks allows you to tailor your cards to your opponent, which feels rude and against the spirit of competition of a typical tourney. You typically can't change your deck in a paper tourney, why would you get to online?

As for if a dynasty pack comes out, as above, at the very least, you specify the allowed cards, and don't change that.

However, you could pretty fairly kick off this tournament on Launch Day.

Pure wishful thinking on my part (maybe OCTGN has something like this, but if so I'm not familiar enough with it to know), but I think it would be nice if games could be set up with an Admin/Judge role. One of the things this Admins could do would be to load decks for the players. This way, prior to the tournament, everyone could send in their deck files with their username and clan (e.g. "JJ48-Mantis"). Whenever I started a game in the tournament, whoever was Admin could simply load in the JJ48-Mantis deck, and guarantee that I'm using the same deck throughout the entire tournament. No one has to look inside at what the cards are, because they can be certain the deck is unchanged as long as it's controlled by the Admins.

1 hour ago, Mirith said:

I don't know if you'll get enough people for a 6 or 7 round tournament.

See, if this were a normal tournament I would be worried. But since it's Clan vs Clan there's no problem even if somebody will drop out after playing a single game, provided there'll be someone else out there willing to replace them. I think there'll be more interest once the product will hit the shelves; after we'll get past first round the interest might increase. But it remains to be seen I guess.

I don't know how you would enforce this

By hoping people won't cheat probably. It's an online tournament with no prizes. I call it a 'tournament' but I don't want it to be some cutthroat event, just everybody having a good time representing their Clan in a new game.

Quote

as the only way to do so would be for each player to publish their decklist before hand (which I am more opposed to this)

That's one of the possibilities. All things considered we will most likely need some people who will be involved in organizing the event only. There shouldn't be an issue with them collecting the decklists.

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However, allowing changes to decks allows you to tailor your cards to your opponent, which feels rude and against the spirit of competition of a typical tourney. You typically can't change your deck in a paper tourney, why would you get to online?

Because it's an online tournament, probably. All solutions I can imagine right now have their pros and cons. This one fundamantally changes how the game is played but is this such a bad thing all things considered? You'll play in dozens, maybe hundreds of tournaments where you'll have to stick to the same deck throughout the course of whole event. Is doing something different for a change a bad thing?

Also some games allow side decking but that's besides the point. L5R doesn't and I'm not suggesting adding a side deck home rule, because side decking means modifying your deck using a limited pool of cards. Then again if people would like that I don't mind that either.

Quote

However, you could pretty fairly kick off this tournament on Launch Day.

Well, I'm not in that much of a rush, for now I wanted to see if there'll be interest in the event to begin with.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Pure wishful thinking on my part (maybe OCTGN has something like this, but if so I'm not familiar enough with it to know), but I think it would be nice if games could be set up with an Admin/Judge role. One of the things this Admins could do would be to load decks for the players. This way, prior to the tournament, everyone could send in their deck files with their username and clan (e.g. "JJ48-Mantis"). Whenever I started a game in the tournament, whoever was Admin could simply load in the JJ48-Mantis deck, and guarantee that I'm using the same deck throughout the entire tournament. No one has to look inside at what the cards are, because they can be certain the deck is unchanged as long as it's controlled by the Admins.

Interesting idea. As far as I know this should be doable in OCTGN - other people just loading decks and handing the control of those over to players. It depends on how the OCTGN module would be made, though.

Entirely doable in Tabletop Simulator, too.

Edited by Nanashi
Sigh, had to retype all of this, it got eaten up.

Actually, what might be a better option is to do something more league style than tourney. Just organize "Play X games of swiss over this time period with this list of players". See how that works then move on to the tourney.

1 hour ago, Mirith said:

Actually, what might be a better option is to do something more league style than tourney. Just organize "Play X games of swiss over this time period with this list of players". See how that works then move on to the tourney.

I'm not sure I understand your point. This is already plenty 'league style' as it's a round robin tournament. Personally I believe 'play x games of Swiss over this time period with this list of players' is far more difficult to organize. So yeah, sorry but this went over my head.

Or did I just do that poor a job at explaining the premise?

I would be interested to participate in something like that and I am sure many other players also would.

I disagree however on the "changing decks midway" idea.

If we are to play in a tournament, even if it is an online one with no prize, we do it for some reason - usually to test our skills/predictions in more competitive environment.

What is the point than to play with the rules that won't be ever used anywhere else and won't reflect the game accurately? Of course we don't know the clan roles right now either but why move the gameplay even further away from reality? I think we should stick as close as possible to the "official" rules - and if playing the same deck without changing any cards in it through the event is one, than so be it.

10 minutes ago, BordOne said:

If we are to play in a tournament, even if it is an online one with no prize, we do it for some reason - usually to test our skills/predictions in more competitive environment.

We do it for a reason - fun. I already stated I don't care much for the cutthroat competive gaming. One of the most important reasons why this was suggested is actually Clan bonding - getting to 'meet' and talk to people from your Clan and striving for the same goal as a team.

That being said I think it's allowing changes that will make this that much more competetive. Especially in terms of predictions. You will have to have a very good understanding of what makes your Clan good, what can pose problems in your matchup with some other Clan, what their weaknesses are, and how you build a deck with all these things in mind. Between each round. To me this feels like the more competetive environment between the two.

10 minutes ago, BordOne said:

What is the point than to play with the rules that won't be ever used anywhere else and won't reflect the game accurately?

Let me ask another question - why not? This has been brought up by Mirith and my answer remains the same - yes, it does change some fundamental aspects of deckbuilding, but why is it bad? I love all sorts of formats like pauper, highlander and whatnot. Having variety is good.

Edited by Nanashi
33 minutes ago, Nanashi said:

I'm not sure I understand your point. This is already plenty 'league style' as it's a round robin tournament. Personally I believe 'play x games of Swiss over this time period with this list of players' is far more difficult to organize. So yeah, sorry but this went over my head.

Or did I just do that poor a job at explaining the premise?

No, you are correct, league is round robin, tourneys are Swiss. That was my mistake.

@Nanashi So I will ask you back, why not do all of these things - bond, have fun, 'meet' new people, while also using rules that will be useful for everybody later? You say it will be an opportunity to get to know your clan, know your counters and matchups I say to the contrary. You will get data skewed by a set of rules that is useless outside of this singular event and wrong assumptions that might spread in the community. I don't see any good reason to do so('why not' isn't one). And lastly just because something something is slightly more competitive doesn't mean its cutthroat

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

@Nanashi So I will ask you back, why not do all of these things - bond, have fun, 'meet' new people, while also using rules that will be useful for everybody later? You say it will be an opportunity to get to know your clan, know your counters and matchups I say to the contrary. You will get data skewed by a set of rules that is useless outside of this singular event and wrong assumptions that might spread in the community. I don't see any good reason to do so('why not' isn't one). And lastly just because something something is slightly more competitive doesn't mean its cutthroat

Well, I'm not really saying one is better than the other. It's quite obviously a matter of preference. So the argument behind changing cards, besides not being stuck with a non functional deck for multiple months, is simply 'because it sounds like a fun idea'. I sincerly doubt this small tournament would be enough to spread any assumptions throughout the community.

One way or another everybody who voted in the poll so far was in favor of changing cards. If I set things up correctly you should be able to view the results after completing the poll; they were never meant to be hidden.

Edited by Nanashi