I see that there's some consensus, that the Temporary Alliance card for the mercenary faction is a problem in Skirmish. Mostly because its text reads: Bring Gideon and/or C-3PO.

I'm not sure the problem is with that card or with those two units, but it ocurred to me; what if just the mercenary version of Temporary Alliance specified that you can only bring non-unique rebel deployment cards?

I think that, given the current meta, that would almost be like removing temp alliance entirely anyway. The only figures even worth considering bringing in to mercs would be Rangers, and they're not worth it without the focus.

Nowadays it reads to me: Bring Gideon and Hera. You can grab c3po with an ejawa.

I think it's a good way to change the card especially because you could still get c3po with the jawa. Sure, they will hinder some other list building possibilities but except maybe a Luke on a rare occasion, nobody brings other uniques into their scum list.

Do you have to make the same restriction for the imperial temp alliance then?

I think the consensus against Temporary Alliance is perceived to be strong because its dissenters are most vocal. I see folks offer a variety of opinions including that the card is fine, or that FAQing the characters or the card will only shift play towards Rebel Hunters over Scum Hunters, and I think those are valid opinions as well. I would wager that additional releases and command cards will balance the game just fine against the currently prevalent Hunter cards. Removing the options for flavorful list-building seems like a step in the wrong direction.

39 minutes ago, Smashotron said:

I think the consensus against Temporary Alliance is perceived to be strong because its dissenters are most vocal. I see folks offer a variety of opinions including that the card is fine, or that FAQing the characters or the card will only shift play towards Rebel Hunters over Scum Hunters, and I think those are valid opinions as well. I would wager that additional releases and command cards will balance the game just fine against the currently prevalent Hunter cards. Removing the options for flavorful list-building seems like a step in the wrong direction.

How is commander Gideon or Jedi Luke fighting alongside Jabba and the gang flavorful? Seems like a flavor fail.

I will agree that the camp that wants TA gone is probably in the minority of players, but the players that think it's good for the game are probably also in the minority with the majority of players likely not caring either way.

I like this proposal, I equally like banning the card outright, it's creating list homogeneity rather than diversity by making Rebel and Scum lists feel too similar to each other. Unique cards don't feel as unique when everyone gets to use them. But since FFG seems to prefer errata over banning, this would probably be the closest we get to a real world solution.

3 hours ago, RogueLieutenant said:

I see that there's some consensus, that the Temporary Alliance card for the mercenary faction is a problem in Skirmish.

Disagree.

3 hours ago, Smashotron said:

I think the consensus against Temporary Alliance is perceived to be strong because its dissenters are most vocal. I see folks offer a variety of opinions including that the card is fine, or that FAQing the characters or the card will only shift play towards Rebel Hunters over Scum Hunters, and I think those are valid opinions as well.

Agree.

My opinion: Limiting options is bad. Creating more options is good. Rebels should be able to Temp Alliance Mercs as they did thematically when they tried to pay off Han when he assisted on a rescue mission of a certain princess.

9 minutes ago, Fightwookies said:

Disagree.

Agree.

My opinion: Limiting options is bad. Creating more options is good. Rebels should be able to Temp Alliance Mercs as they did thematically when they tried to pay off Han when he assisted on a rescue mission of a certain princess.

I do wish Saska had worked out better in the regard.

4 minutes ago, TheUnsullied said:

I do wish Saska had worked out better in the regard.

Exactly. The eJawa is thematically great for adding options for the Mercs. I think the Rebels need a way to expand their list building options, and mercs will fight for anyone who pays. Surely Han and Chewie have contact info for a few of Jabba's smugglers that have no love for the empire.

11 minutes ago, Fightwookies said:

Exactly. The eJawa is thematically great for adding options for the Mercs. I think the Rebels need a way to expand their list building options, and mercs will fight for anyone who pays. Surely Han and Chewie have contact info for a few of Jabba's smugglers that have no love for the empire.

Maybe she will be one of the exceptions and get a fix like some of the iconic heroes. Not because she is exciting but because of the role she could play. I'd also be happy with a second version of Han Solo that could bring in some Mercs with him.

Restrictions often breed creativity.

Also more options does not mean more variety. Removing the TA would help the factions feel different and distinct from each other.

43 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Restrictions often breed creativity.

Also more options does not mean more variety. Removing the TA would help the factions feel different and distinct from each other.

This is such a good point that just seems to get ignored every time. TA doesn't allow for more options, it takes (good) options away. Designing a Scum list? It basically starts with 2 eWeequay, TA, Gideon and Hera. This means you have 18 points to work with for the rest of your list. With TA gone, you're looking at 26 points' worth of creativity. Not to mention it would make Jabba viable again, which would be much more thematic than 1-2 Gideons running around in almost every skirmish fought in the SW universe.

TA also limits design space. Jabba was obviously meant to replace the Rebel support package, but was ultimately deemed just a little too weak. If they want to create Scum support characters, they need to be BETTER than RSC to be worth it. Power creep ad nauseam.

People talk about TA as though it allows for some amazing creativity and diversity in list building. This is not the case. In competitive games, it's only use is to bring in Gideon/Hear/C-3PO. Maybe players are using it to bring Han and Chewie to work for Jabba in their casual games, but in this case, they can still do that by just ignoring any ban/nerf for the card. Now that I think about it, they could just ban the card from competitive tournaments. If you want to keep using it, sure, and if you want to practice (or imagine you're practicing) for a tournament, that's fine too.

The correct answer here is only SMUGGLERS AND HUNTERS. You can put han, chewie, hera, rangers, alliance smugglers, Lando.... I can see all this guys doing scum things.

And Bye Bye 3po and gideon. Well... 3po still have jawas, but i think this is not bad and is thematic.

2 hours ago, burek277 said:

This is such a good point that just seems to get ignored every time. TA doesn't allow for more options, it takes (good) options away. Designing a Scum list? It basically starts with 2 eWeequay, TA, Gideon and Hera. This means you have 18 points to work with for the rest of your list. With TA gone, you're looking at 26 points' worth of creativity. Not to mention it would make Jabba viable again, which would be much more thematic than 1-2 Gideons running around in almost every skirmish fought in the SW universe.

TA also limits design space. Jabba was obviously meant to replace the Rebel support package, but was ultimately deemed just a little too weak. If they want to create Scum support characters, they need to be BETTER than RSC to be worth it. Power creep ad nauseam.

People talk about TA as though it allows for some amazing creativity and diversity in list building. This is not the case. In competitive games, it's only use is to bring in Gideon/Hear/C-3PO. Maybe players are using it to bring Han and Chewie to work for Jabba in their casual games, but in this case, they can still do that by just ignoring any ban/nerf for the card. Now that I think about it, they could just ban the card from competitive tournaments. If you want to keep using it, sure, and if you want to practice (or imagine you're practicing) for a tournament, that's fine too.

This doesn't make sense though. Why complain about how good Gideon/Hera/3PO are when brought into Merc lists but then be okay staying the same way in Rebel lists. Everyone would just swap from Merc hunters to rebel hunters and it would be the same problem. If those units are too strong then something needs to be done about them not Temporary Alliance. Either that or Merc needs solid low cost support units that are good enough to not bring the RCP in.

Would be interesting if one of the Clawdite-forms was a support form.

1 hour ago, TheUnsullied said:

This doesn't make sense though. Why complain about how good Gideon/Hera/3PO are when brought into Merc lists but then be okay staying the same way in Rebel lists. Everyone would just swap from Merc hunters to rebel hunters and it would be the same problem. If those units are too strong then something needs to be done about them not Temporary Alliance. Either that or Merc needs solid low cost support units that are good enough to not bring the RCP in.

1) Because the Rebel hunters are simply not as strong, so they are more acceptable in combination with the RCP than the Merc Hunters.

Let's say we could rate the power of certain groups with numbers.

The Merc Hunters might be a 8/10, Rebel Hunters a 6/10, the RCP 9/10. Combining Merc Hunters with RCP makes for a 17/20, while combining Rebels with them only makes a 15/20. Obviously, it's not that simple, but that's the general idea.

2) It would promote at least a bit of diversity. Mercs have Jabba and they can use a Jawa to give them C-3PO. This means they have some options available. Let's say that Jabba and C-3PO are a 7/10 by my imaginary metric. This gives us a 15/20 for Mercs, which would bring them more in line with the Rebels. Again, it's not as simple, but at least we're increasing the number of models that see play.

3) If Mercs without the RCP are not good enough, then Mercs can get some more units that help them but don't have to be strictly better than RCP to ever be chosen. Seeing a figure like Jabba pushed aside immediately because the RCP is just better has got to be horrible.

Taking into account figure availability, personnal preference, regional differences, and other minor effects, players will mostly choose the best figures for their army in a competitive environment. With more and more figures being produced and one still only needing 40 points' worth, more and more options are naturally being pushed aside. With TA+RCP, this increases even further.

PS: I would love to see a test tournament without TA. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't see a massive shift towards Rebel Hunters, but a small shift would actually be great.

Rebels as a faction have the problem, that it's often better to take the best Rebel units to Mercs. Therefore, Rebels see more play in Mercs lists, than in Rebels list.

Mercs have great hard hitting units like the eWeequays. Rebels have the best support like Gideon. If there was no Temp Alliance, one could play Mercs for the one thing and Rebels for the other. With Temp Alliance I just play Mercs and ally the Rebel support. That's a no-brainer.

Temp Alliance adds more options to Mercs and the Empire. Especially when the game was younger, Temp Alliance made list building more interesting. It's just good to have as many (viable) options as possible.

Just for the flavor I would prefer, if each faction was a little bit more unique. Empire has Troopers and Zillo, Rebels have unique heroes and support (focus), Mercs have heavy hitting hunters. Something like that.

We just don't have this AT THE MOMENT. Mercs are the cherry picking faction. 3PO, Chopper and BT-1 picked via an eJawa, Hera and Gideon via Temp Alliance.

To put this in another direction: Each faction has options to draw more cards. Rebel High Command, Rule by Fear and Black Market. All three are unique. All three are good. All three add a lot of flavor to their faction. None of these can be allied. Each faction has support. Rebels have Gideon, R2, 3PO, Hera,... Empire has Officers, Generals, Captains, ... Mercs have Jabba. All of them are unique. All of them are good. All of them add a lot of flavor to their faction. The support defines, how a faction is played. Activation management, number of activations, mobility (Officer) vs hitting power (focus). That's good. And then Mercs take the flavor of another faction. That just doesn't taste right.

I wouldn't change a card, neither nerf nor buff. This is always the least elegant way to solve such a problem. Sometimes, this has to be done (Royal Guards). But usually, it's better to slightly change the rules (passing against activation creep, points per figure against running the last Trooper away).

I'd suggest a rule, that all buffs are in faction only (like Jabba's focus). That's elegant, easily done, and makes faction balancing more easy.

2 hours ago, burek277 said:

1) Because the Rebel hunters are simply not as strong, so they are more acceptable in combination with the RCP than the Merc Hunters.

Let's say we could rate the power of certain groups with numbers.

The Merc Hunters might be a 8/10, Rebel Hunters a 6/10, the RCP 9/10. Combining Merc Hunters with RCP makes for a 17/20, while combining Rebels with them only makes a 15/20. Obviously, it's not that simple, but that's the general idea.

2) It would promote at least a bit of diversity. Mercs have Jabba and they can use a Jawa to give them C-3PO. This means they have some options available. Let's say that Jabba and C-3PO are a 7/10 by my imaginary metric. This gives us a 15/20 for Mercs, which would bring them more in line with the Rebels. Again, it's not as simple, but at least we're increasing the number of models that see play.

3) If Mercs without the RCP are not good enough, then Mercs can get some more units that help them but don't have to be strictly better than RCP to ever be chosen. Seeing a figure like Jabba pushed aside immediately because the RCP is just better has got to be horrible.

Taking into account figure availability, personnal preference, regional differences, and other minor effects, players will mostly choose the best figures for their army in a competitive environment. With more and more figures being produced and one still only needing 40 points' worth, more and more options are naturally being pushed aside. With TA+RCP, this increases even further.

PS: I would love to see a test tournament without TA. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't see a massive shift towards Rebel Hunters, but a small shift would actually be great.

I've got to disagree on a couple points here as well.

First I think you are underestimating rebel hunters along with a lot of this forum. This is probably the smallest concern and even if you aren't and they really are only a 6/10 it doesn't really make a difference in the larger discussion here.

Second. Going off of your scale with RCP rated a 9/10 we still have the same problem as before. It might not be an immediate problem but either the devs would have to make every single new Rebel unit rated at a 7/10 or lower or eventually we will have a rebel unit released that is just as good with RCP as eQuays are.

I sincerely hope that the dev team isn't going to keep the whole Rebel factions power lower because of two units from the early waves. Because if that's the case they need to be fixed and not TA.

Third I don't see the issue of Merc supports figures bumping out Gideon and 3POs place without any changes to TA. Right now you're paying a 17% increase in price to add RCP to a Merc list. If some cheap Merc support figures were to come out they should be able to replace RCP in Merc lists. Of course then we just end up seeing 4-5 different units every game instead of 2.

Your proposed nerf of TA doesn't really change anything imo except shift the meta towards Rebel hunters(until Heart of Freedom drops at least)

Ban TA.

easy.

all the Scum players still have their strong pieces.

rebels get to keep a couple of theirs for themselves.

I really like TA. I enjoy having the options of listbuilding. Sure, most competive players run the RCP with Mercs, but that's not true for all players, and I would hate for that to go away. I've done well with a Merc list using only Jabba, I've seen Jedi Luke and a Bantha wreak havoc, and I want to attend a tournament where someone is running a Rancor and At-DP list, because that's just awesome. I think if force users are good enough, I'd like to see Ahsoka and Maul run amok.

I don't mind if Mercs borrow my RCP. I'll just welcome those traitors into my Nal Hutta Swamp and teach them the cost of betrayal (mwa ha ha! I'll show them the tinge of darkness to my light side of the force!). eRangers are Tier 1 right now, and they fear nothing!!!

-ryanjamal

To be honest, i love TA and i'm pretty sure it's not the card having an issue, but it's Gideon and 3po. What does TA do is simply opening your merc lists to new lists, which is always a good thing. The fact it is used to get Gideon and 3po is just due to their great utility and the ability to focus others, which is something always less unique to rebels only.
Therefore, I don't think the problem is related to the card, but the issue is about the focus trait, which is something that should be peculiar to rebels only. Even Jabba got replaced by lower costed cards, even thou' he's really great.

So, imho the solution might be nerfing Gideon / C-3PO by just changing their texts into "Choose one rebel ally figure [...]. That figure becomes focused."
I'm pretty sure that this way rebels would become way stronger than they are atm, plus Merc's TA would be used in multiple different ways, wouldn't you say?

I'd say the developers have actually done a pretty good job at designing figures with these interactions in mind as of late. Gideon and 3PO are 1st and 2nd wave figures. Give the folks time to design around it. X-wing is literally a hot mess, so much so I haven't been inclined to purchase or play anything for 8+months. IA has been very careful not to make super broad sweeping changes to the game and I (as many others have spoken here on the forum) am very appreciative that the designers have not screwed up the game and are thoughtfully adding to the game excellent options each wave.

1 minute ago, buckero0 said:

I'd say the developers have actually done a pretty good job at designing figures with these interactions in mind as of late. Gideon and 3PO are 1st and 2nd wave figures. Give the folks time to design around it. X-wing is literally a hot mess, so much so I haven't been inclined to purchase or play anything for 8+months. IA has been very careful not to make super broad sweeping changes to the game and I (as many others have spoken here on the forum) am very appreciative that the designers have not screwed up the game and are thoughtfully adding to the game excellent options each wave.

So and so, yes they have done a good job till now, but we can't deny there's a lot of stuff needing a rework, something in good like Vader with Driven by Hatred and something in bad, which might be limiting gideon and 3po out of mercs

There's only 1-2 guys working on the skirmish side at a time. I'd rather they took their time to playtest and get it right (and give my wallet time to recover and me time to actually play with the new stuff before I buy more. I still haven't fully played the figures in the Jabba wave and I've had that since the release date)

To me it sounds like TA isn't the issue as much as it is an issue with c3po and Gideon. Simple fix in my mind is just raise the cost of those two figures by 1 point each. Bam, issue fixed.

TA is good and needs to stay. Just fix some of the more broken figures and the problem goes away.

The variety provided by TA is an illusion when the correct answer is almost always Hera/Gideon/C-3P0.

Banning TA is the cleanest thing to do, not trying to band aid figures or the card. It's a single card in the core set that was a design band aid itself to a problem that doesn't exist in the game anymore. Issuing an errata making the card unusable in skirmish is not that sweeping or radical a change.