1 hour ago, roman2440 said:

Simple fix in my mind is just raise the cost of those two figures by 1 point each. Bam, issue fixed.

I agree with you here, no adjustments to stats or abilities just Gideon is 4pt and Threepio is 3pt. That should be easy enough to balance their cost against their value, regardless of faction.

40 minutes ago, miguelj said:

Issuing an errata making the card unusable in skirmish is not that sweeping or radical a chan

You're looking to apply "5 feet of gauze" to a "1 inch band-aid" kind of problem.

The focus of the complaint doesn't seem to be "adding Rangers to Scum is way OP" or "tossing Pirates in Imperial list really ruined the game" or "once you add Lando to Wing Guard, gosh its thematic but it made the meta pretty cookie-cutter." What I keep seeing are folks pin-pointing the "unfairness" of Gideon/Threepio in Scum, while under-emphasizing the strengths of eRangers, and then taking a swing at Temporary Alliance because of an unwillingness to take a swing at Gideon/Threepio.

I would think that an aversion to adjusting Gideon/Threepio is born out of an interest in still seeing them be super-efficient with the not-actually-terrible eRangers. Being a Scum player that doesn't constantly run Gideon/Threepio, I think a 1pt bump is the best idea so far.

Granted, I don't hate the idea of making Gideon/Threepio affect "Rebel figures only" but I feel like that both ignores the strengths of eRangers, as if Pirates were the only issue, and also hinders the recent addition of eJawas. It seems silly that a character like Threepio, who has worked for Scum on several occasions and has even been captured by Jawas before, would be unable to Focus any Scum figures just to solve a cost/efficiency issue.

40 minutes ago, miguelj said:

It's a single card in the core set that was a design band aid itself

Also, how was Temporary Alliance a band-aid to a Skirmish problem if it came in the Core Box?

47 minutes ago, miguelj said:

The variety provided by TA is an illusion when the correct answer is almost always Hera/Gideon/C-3P0.

Banning TA is the cleanest thing to do, not trying to band aid figures or the card. It's a single card in the core set that was a design band aid itself to a problem that doesn't exist in the game anymore. Issuing an errata making the card unusable in skirmish is not that sweeping or radical a change.

This doesn't change how good those figures are though. I don't understand why people are okay with them being too strong and auto include in Rebels but not in Mercs. We seem to be more worried about seeing a variety of other figures on the field than the actual balance of the game with these comments.

To me it doesn't seem much better that 2 or 3 figures would be auto included in 1/3 of all lists(Rebels) than how it is now with them in 2/3s of all lists. It's just a different degree with the same problem.

Just imagine for a second that the next expansion has an exact copy of eQuays for the Rebel faction. Literally everything the same but they are now Rebel figures. Now solve that problem.

16 minutes ago, Smashotron said:

Also, how was Temporary Alliance a band-aid to a Skirmish problem if it came in the Core Box?

Because when the game was originally released, the designers thought that the Merc faction wouldn't be playable at all without being able to import some Rebel units (and they were probably right about that at the time). That's what makes the card a design band aid.

Nobody in their right mind I think could reasonably argue today that the Merc faction cannot stand on its own, hence the original reason for the card no longer exists, and IMO it will continue to be an albatross on the game's balance until it is finally removed. The only arguments I see in favor of keeping it are some misguided notion that it promotes "diversity".

1 hour ago, miguelj said:

The variety provided by TA is an illusion when the correct answer is almost always Hera/Gideon/C-3P0.

Here's the problem with your ASSUMPTION. It isn't and never will be the correct answer, because by stating this you are implying that 1. there will never be anything else (Hera proved this wrong) and 2. that there is an Incorrect answer, and that is where fun and enjoyment for many is taken by creating unique lists that are not pidgeon-holed by narrow minded parameters.

9 minutes ago, miguelj said:

the designers thought that the Merc faction wouldn't be playable at all without being able to import some Rebel units

Your logic for the Scum Temporary Alliance card would have to be applied to the Imperial Temporary Alliance card and that's were your reasoning falters. If Scum were inferior (and Imperial figures an absolute surplus in the Core box), why would an Imperial Temporary Alliance card have needed to exist? Unless the intention for both cards is to promote creativity and diversity with a thematic vessel for faction-blending, not simply enhance one "unplayable" faction.

I admit, Sanka was an attempt to give Rebels that same diversity but she hasn't aged well. Jawas are a modern, well thought-out way of promoting thematic faction-blending. If each faction had a very specific way to incorporate other figures, that would be great! Bottom line though, it wouldn't do anything to address the problem with Gideon/Threepio and that's the issue people circle back to. "Get Gideon/Threepio out of Scum!" well why not just fix the source of the problem, the figures themselves?

A lot of people are saying the figs themselves are the problems and not TA, and that the figs that are auto-chosen with TA should get nerfed.

They are ignoring the fact that being faction-locked limits a figure's utility and vice versa making a figure universal makes it stronger.

Here's an easy example. Think of a good solid card that is just undeniably good and useful. Now make two identical copies of that card, and make one copy factionless and make one copy limited to a single faction. Which card is better? Obviously the factionless version is stronger because it can be used in any list without any restrictions. My point being that restricting these figures to their single native faction would effectively weaken them overall without hurting the Rebel faction.

Rebels are the only faction that don't get to steal cards from other factions (without taking a 6 point handicap) and shouldn't have to have their cards made worse just because Scum cards are so good.

4 hours ago, Smashotron said:

Your logic for the Scum Temporary Alliance card would have to be applied to the Imperial Temporary Alliance card and that's were your reasoning falters. If Scum were inferior (and Imperial figures an absolute surplus in the Core box), why would an Imperial Temporary Alliance card have needed to exist?

Because it was just another way for scum figures to get included in lists at a time when it was difficult to make lists for their own faction. I have a feeling that both versions of the card were originally for the scum faction, but then someone thought it would be more thematic if it was the Empire hiring scum figures instead of the other way around.

6 hours ago, Tvboy said:

A lot of people are saying the figs themselves are the problems and not TA, and that the figs that are auto-chosen with TA should get nerfed.

They are ignoring the fact that being faction-locked limits a figure's utility and vice versa making a figure universal makes it stronger.

Here's an easy example. Think of a good solid card that is just undeniably good and useful. Now make two identical copies of that card, and make one copy factionless and make one copy limited to a single faction. Which card is better? Obviously the factionless version is stronger because it can be used in any list without any restrictions. My point being that restricting these figures to their single native faction would effectively weaken them overall without hurting the Rebel faction.

Rebels are the only faction that don't get to steal cards from other factions (without taking a 6 point handicap) and shouldn't have to have their cards made worse just because Scum cards are so good.

But within that faction the cards would be equally strong. If the card is so good, then it might be a problem in that faction as well.

Gideon and 3po haven't really proven to be a problem for the game on the Rebel side, Rebels have had them for a long time and never been the dominant faction, so it doesn't matter that that they don't get weaker in Rebels, taking them out of scum makes them weaker in general.

Ever since the game came out Gideon has been there, and Rebels have always been 2nd fiddle to the Empire, and once Reinforcements got nerfed Rebels are now 2nd fiddle to Scum, even though their RCP is 1 point cheaper and theoretically better! If RCP were the problem, Rebels should be dominating the meta game with the cheaper RCP, not Scum.

4 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Gideon and 3po haven't really proven to be a problem for the game on the Rebel side, Rebels have had them for a long time and never been the dominant faction, so it doesn't matter that that they don't get weaker in Rebels, taking them out of scum makes them weaker in general.

Ever since the game came out Gideon has been there, and Rebels have always been 2nd fiddle to the Empire, and once Reinforcements got nerfed Rebels are now 2nd fiddle to Scum, even though their RCP is 1 point cheaper and theoretically better! If RCP were the problem, Rebels should be dominating the meta game with the cheaper RCP, not Scum.

You're right, the problem is not them, but it's the cards affected by them, and mercs gain way more value then rebels, especially weequays which are low cost deployments with multiple figures, something that rebels clearly lack

Nerfing Gideon and C-3PO is an option, of course, but I think that would really hurt the Rebel faction. Since Rebels aren't all that strong right now, it's an option I would not like to see. Also, people have been saying that Hera is better than C-3PO nowadays.

Seriously, run one tournament without TA and see what happens.

Just now, burek277 said:

Nerfing Gideon and C-3PO is an option, of course, but I think that would really hurt the Rebel faction. Since Rebels aren't all that strong right now, it's an option I would not like to see. Also, people have been saying that Hera is better than C-3PO nowadays.

Seriously, run one tournament without TA and see what happens.

That's why imho the best fix they could apply would be making 3po and gideon target rebels only with their skills. No damage at all to rebel faction, problem solved for TA.
Of course, in this way TA would become getting Chopper and Hera xD

1 minute ago, erlucius90 said:

That's why imho the best fix they could apply would be making 3po and gideon target rebels only with their skills. No damage at all to rebel faction, problem solved for TA.
Of course, in this way TA would become getting Chopper and Hera xD

I agree, I think the problem is that Mercs have the best aggresive units and they can combine them with the best cheap support units. Maybe making TA cost 2 would help?

Just now, burek277 said:

I agree, I think the problem is that Mercs have the best aggresive units and they can combine them with the best cheap support units. Maybe making TA cost 2 would help?

Well, making it cost 2 would change basically nothing since both chopper and hera are very cheap deployments. I'm more and more convinced that MAYBE the topic is right about applying to non-unique only, although that way TA would become pratically useless...
I suppose we can be happy to switch from gideon n 3po to hera n chopper, to begin with...it's still something relevant for a change, and perhaps will make good cards such as Jabba viable again

For a moment let's assume that the complaint "TA needs to be changed" is true (which I don't think is the case, but let's assume anyway):

What would you guys like to happen to the rebel fraction? Should they NEVER get something like Weequays so that this discussion does not rise again?

I find it most interesting that it never even occurred to me that this was a problem and I find it very comforting that units from the beginning of the game still see play. In my eyes, FFG is "dealing" with this "problem" already with all the auto focus one can get.

1 hour ago, burek277 said:

Nerfing Gideon and C-3PO is an option, of course, but I think that would really hurt the Rebel faction. Since Rebels aren't all that strong right now, it's an option I would not like to see. Also, people have been saying that Hera is better than C-3PO nowadays.

Seriously, run one tournament without TA and see what happens.

If you play eRangers right, they are strong. But do it, run a tournament without TA and don't keep asking someone else to do it. You can arrange your own Vassal tournament or something with local players.

I think running a tournament is a lot easier if you have the proper resources - the know-how, the connections, and the experience. I have none of those, so the scope of any event I were to run would be small, thus limiting the plausibility of the results.

What I did do was suggest this change to my local play group. We've only played like this twice, though, as we don't meet that often. I'm the one that plays Mercs the most, so I switched over to Jabba and/or Jawa+C-3PO. It's definitely weaker, but still works and feel a bit more thematic. When I don't take the Jawa, Jabba mostly focuses+draws. When I don't, there's more ordered hits. It changes things up a bit. One player that regularly switched between Rebels and Mercs has mostly been playing Rebels. Focus flies around like crazy. The two players that prefer the Empire say they like it better now, but I think that's just anecdotal. It's true that with my Focused+Hidden eQuays, I used to regularly take out figures like Royal Guards in one activation, so one tried using them again over eTroopers with proxied Vader+Palpatine (to mixed success).

***

You seriously don't see anything wrong with 2/3 of the factions (and probably 75%+ of the armies) using the same 2-3 figures which basically define how the first 1-2 turns of each game play out? Not trying to be obnoxious here, but maybe you didn't see TA as a problem since you don't have that much experience with game design? Or perhaps your local community is simply not as competitive and there is a much more natural distribution of factions/figures. (Not saying my scene is competitive - my observations are focused on the tournament scene).

8 hours ago, aermet69 said:

But within that faction the cards would be equally strong. If the card is so good, then it might be a problem in that faction as well.

There is a big difference between faction balancing and figure balancing.

A faction can have the most overpowered figure, but not be played at all, just because you can't build a good list around that figure.

A faction can have no single overpowered figure but still be overpowered as a faction, just because you can build the most versatile lists from what you have in that faction.

I've said that before: I don't think that eWeequays are really overpowered. They are really good, but that's it. The same goes for many new scum units.

It's the combination of those figures with some Rebel figures that's overpowered. Sometimes the whole is more than the sum of it's parts.

2 hours ago, Baer said:

For a moment let's assume that the complaint "TA needs to be changed" is true (which I don't think is the case, but let's assume anyway):

What would you guys like to happen to the rebel fraction? Should they NEVER get something like Weequays so that this discussion does not rise again?

I find it most interesting that it never even occurred to me that this was a problem and I find it very comforting that units from the beginning of the game still see play. In my eyes, FFG is "dealing" with this "problem" already with all the auto focus one can get.

If you play eRangers right, they are strong. But do it, run a tournament without TA and don't keep asking someone else to do it. You can arrange your own Vassal tournament or something with local players.

I think eQuays have a slight edge on eRangers but the biggest reason they are viewed as so much stronger is because they are so easy to use. Round 1 focus and hide them and round 2 shoot something. With their forced reroll on a white die you never have to worry about who you should target with a focused shot.

Now that Hera is here I think eRangers are almost as good(maybe better with the new map) but they take more skill and thought to play. Figuring out where to move to stay range 5 for rerolls but also not expose yourself to enemy shots isn't always easy.

I'd love to hear @DTDanix thoughts on eRangers vs eQuays since I know he was using a list with two sets of the Rangers for a while. I think everyone is a little overboard with how strong they think Mercs as a whole are right now. If I sit down against a Merc hunter list with a Rebel or Imperial list I really don't think I'm handicapping myself that much.

33 minutes ago, burek277 said:

***

You seriously don't see anything wrong with 2/3 of the factions (and probably 75%+ of the armies) using the same 2-3 figures which basically define how the first 1-2 turns of each game play out? Not trying to be obnoxious here, but maybe you didn't see TA as a problem since you don't have that much experience with game design? Or perhaps your local community is simply not as competitive and there is a much more natural distribution of factions/figures. (Not saying my scene is competitive - my observations are focused on the tournament scene).

If you want to look at the competitive scene the new wave dropped why don't you take a look at the Reddit Vassal tourney that is running right now. There are a large number of extremely good players there and it doesn't seem like Mercs are rolling away with game there.

15 hours ago, Tvboy said:

just because Scum cards are so good.

All the Hunter cards available to eWeequays are available to eRangers and I would argue that, point-for-point, an eRanger is the better figure. Why should one faction have anything taken away from them that's been an integral part of their army-building since the beginning just because they finally have some figures that are "so good"? How does the power-level issue get resolved if only eRangers, and their Hunter cards, have access to the two most frequent sources of Focus in the game? "Because they're Rebel figures and you can't have them!"

Seriously, run one tournament without TA and see what happens.

I won the last SC without TA.

Ha ha, whenever I win it's without TA bc I'm running Rebels ?.

I understand both sides of this argument, but I'd like to see how the next wave shakes up the meta before calling for anything so drastic.

But I do love the idea of a Vassal tourney with a TA ban.

-ryanjamal

2 hours ago, burek277 said:

***

You seriously don't see anything wrong with 2/3 of the factions (and probably 75%+ of the armies) using the same 2-3 figures which basically define how the first 1-2 turns of each game play out? Not trying to be obnoxious here, but maybe you didn't see TA as a problem since you don't have that much experience with game design? Or perhaps your local community is simply not as competitive and there is a much more natural distribution of factions/figures. (Not saying my scene is competitive - my observations are focused on the tournament scene).

No I don't see anything wrong with it and yes, we are a competetive meta here. Why is it wrong that good cards are played very often and bad cards aren't played at all? Just list all the cards below 5 points and compare them. You will always want some low cost figures to smooth out your activation count. If your problem is "They are everywhere" then the solution should be more low cost figures for every faction. Just look at a LCG of your choice and you will finde some cards which are basically in every deck and some which will never see play.

On 02/08/2017 at 9:43 PM, RogueLieutenant said:

I see that there's some consensus, that the Temporary Alliance card for the mercenary faction is a problem in Skirmish. Mostly because its text reads: Bring Gideon and/or C-3PO.

I'm not sure the problem is with that card or with those two units, but it ocurred to me; what if just the mercenary version of Temporary Alliance specified that you can only bring non-unique rebel deployment cards?

Changed recently with the release of the jawa scavenger to give a bit more freedom but I generally agree

(jawa brings in c3po)

eRangers may be better than eWeequays fig-for-fig (debatable), but the fact that rangers cost 12 makes them more restrictive when it comes to list building, you can get 4 eWeequays for 14 points compared to 3 rangers for 12, or you can go down to 2 figs to make room for other things in your list like the JR Heroes, rangers are locked in at 12 pts whether you want that 3rd fig or not.

The best argument I've seen so far in favor of TA is that it's part of the faction identity (they're technically mercenary faction) that they are willing to mingle with the other 2 factions. I can get behind that, but I would support the proposed change that makes it so only Hunter and Smuggler Rebels can be recruited by Scum, Jedi Luke and Commander Gideon fighting for Jabba or hiring Jabba or whatever is breaking theme.

20 hours ago, Smashotron said:

I won the last SC without TA.

Congratulations! That has almost nothing to do with my argument, of course, but it's nice to hear.

My argument is still the same: TA promotes lazy deckbuilding, reduces variety, and limits design space. It's obvious that noone is changing their mind here, so this debate is getting quite pointless.

I thought this was a pretty good exchange personally.