2 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

...

......

.........

Trust me, they're ambrosial.

10 hours ago, Anemura said:

If we posit that another story aspect of the Phoenix could have mitigated the damage caused by the opening of the Black Scrolls, then we are saying that the Clan War story did not itself set up the permanent perception of the Phoenix.

Hair-splitting at its finest- the Clan War narrative is the one we got, the one that set this perception in motion, the one that cemented the clan's reputation with the fanbase.

10 hours ago, Anemura said:

On why Maho is "stapled" to the Phoenix: From my understanding, Shugenja are the most apt to explore Maho because they can directly communicate with Kansen that can teach it to them. If that's true in the FFG cannon, then it makes logical sense as to why Maho is prevalent within the Phoenix -- They have the most Shugenja and are always pushing for knowledge. Sometimes that knowledge can hurt. That's just the price of always searching.

No, it's "stapled" to the Phoenix because that was the story the clan got. Maho has never actually been more "prevalent" in the Phoenix Clan than anyone else, they just get the rep for it, and it boils out how we met them and what we saw their leadership doing.

10 hours ago, Anemura said:

I think there's great potential in telling Maho-based stories within the Phoenix.

You're entitled to be wrong. There is literally no story involving maho that I wouldn't rather see with an Isawa abusing his elemental magic because of course he can, and he's just being an actual villain, rather than, "evil magic made me do evil things so evil evil evil."

When you can make the elements do what you want, you really don;t need to cut yourself for parlor tricks.

6 hours ago, RandomJC said:

Coulda sworn this was for the Unicorn fiction...

I tried, dammit. I tried. This whole thing came screaming out of my concern about weak debuts for clans... thus far, let me reiterate, the Phoenix are doing fine in FFG's narrative. It's the Lion and Unicorn I'm most worried about.

1 minute ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I tried, dammit. I tried. This whole thing came screaming out of my concern about weak debuts for clans... thus far, let me reiterate, the Phoenix are doing fine in FFG's narrative. It's the Lion and Unicorn I'm most worried about.

Problem is i fundamentally disagree with this assessment of both fictions.

"Evil magic made me do it" is...yeah. When reading about dramatic face-heel-turns of certain characters after getting Tainted, it sometimes really felt little...too forced. Also, it kind of removed the responsibility of their ations from them, because Evil Made Them Do It.

Just now, RandomJC said:

Problem is i fundamentally disagree with this assessment of both fictions.

And that's fine! I've already expounded my distaste for how the Unicorn were presented in this one at length, so I'm not going to belabor that with you. We see it differently. Early days yet, so neither of us can be said to actually be wrong yet.

Although my Lion concerns are less about their fiction (I thought it did its job just fine), and more about how they come off everywhere else they show up...

11 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And that's fine! I've already expounded my distaste for how the Unicorn were presented in this one at length, so I'm not going to belabor that with you. We see it differently. Early days yet, so neither of us can be said to actually be wrong yet.

Although my Lion concerns are less about their fiction (I thought it did its job just fine), and more about how they come off everywhere else they show up...

The Lion will get their chance to shine. Of course, that will probably be by stomping some other clan. They will keep the 'bully' label for some time I think. The best they can hope for is to be honorable about it

10 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm fairly sure the Tadaka did nothing wrong until that point. He was just trying to destroy Akuma no Oni, and he used totally legal knowledge acquired through official channels. There wasn't even a lot of knowledge-seeking here, and definitely no price to pay. But then this story was dropped (and largely forgotten) when Tadaka disappeared in the Shadowlands, and when he showed up again, it was Black-Scrolls-o-Clock.

Not quite, it was the 5 years spent in Crab lands (mixed with forays into the Shadowlands while there) that Tadaka did some of his best work against the Shadowlands. (Page 76. Way of the Phoenix) "For five years, he spent every waking moment in preparation, uncovering foul rituals and discovering their secrets, discovering new ways to fight the evil minions of Fu Leng with a passion that rivals even the most fanatic Kuni. He has spent years in study and contemplation, and has risked his life, his mind, and his very soul in an attempt to destroy the beast".

He then returned to the Phoenix lands to become Master of Earth. At this time, he was fully dressed in black to hide the price that he paid for the knowledge he gained.

This should prove that it was Tadaka's drive for revenge that pushed him toward a dark path, not hubris. You could make that argument for Tsuke, but the source material does not support this assertion for Tadaka. It was always about defeating Akuma. He even split his time between the Council of Five and Crab lands after ascending to become a Master -- He didn't care about self aggrandizement. He left that to Tsuke.

The Black Scrolls had to be opened in order for the Day of Thunder to occur. They were also created by the original Isawa. How would you have preferred they be opened? I'm curious. What would have made more sense, and for better story?

8 hours ago, jcharpjr71 said:

MAHO

Backstory:

In the time before the fall of the Kami, the Tribe of Isawa were the first men to discover and practiced a form of magic. It relied in the worshipping of the Seven Fortunes with blood offerings to obtain their blessing (magic effect). It was primarily a ritualistic practice with many spellcasters joining together and contributing their blood in the effort. If the sacrifice was accepted, the Fortunes ordered the kami to perform the requested task...

This view also brings helps to outline the Phoenix distrust of Meishodo. They see all none elemental magic as maho, or a version of it. They have no understanding of magic (historically or currently) that does not included bargaining with either a Fortune or a kami. They cannot even perceive of name magic (as they have never been exposed to it). The Phoenix probably believe that the Iuchi have trapped a kami within their trinkets, and are forcing it to perform (like a master-slave relationship).

While I agree that the Phoenix probably have no understanding of meishodo, and so distrust it, I don't think they place it on the same level as Maho. Maho is illegal because it was proven to be evil. They don't know what meishodo is, good, evil or otherwise. Which is why this will be a fascinating sub-plot for them. They have to work against their traditionalist value system in order to give meishodo proper consideration (but where does that leave their doctrine?). Otherwise, risk war (which goes against the motif of the peaceful Phoenix). Interesting times.

8 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Hair-splitting at its finest- the Clan War narrative is the one we got, the one that set this perception in motion, the one that cemented the clan's reputation with the fanbase.

No, it's "stapled" to the Phoenix because that was the story the clan got. Maho has never actually been more "prevalent" in the Phoenix Clan than anyone else, they just get the rep for it, and it boils out how we met them and what we saw their leadership doing.

You're entitled to be wrong. There is literally no story involving maho that I wouldn't rather see with an Isawa abusing his elemental magic because of course he can, and he's just being an actual villain, rather than, "evil magic made me do evil things so evil evil evil."

When you can make the elements do what you want, you really don;t need to cut yourself for parlor tricks.

Pointing out your contradiction is not "hair splitting". You said that if post-Clan War story was strong enough, it would have mitigated the perceived damage of the Clan War story. Meaning, the Clan War story itself did not irrevocably cement the clan's reputation. The lack of a better post-Clan War story did.

Maho was the creation of Isawa's tribe. I would think that at the time of Clan formation, Maho was more prevalent in the Phoenix than anywhere else. Fair to say? Beyond that point, it becomes a matter of mechanics and distribution. Mechanically, Shugenja are more apt to pick it up because of access to Kansen. Granted, they can use spells already, so what is the need? Well, its about the quicker path to power (Sith). Some will pursue it, some will not. But the point of this is to understand that before we highlight the use of it by the Masters, it's underlying mechanics favour Shugenja practitioners overall... When we understand this, then the next realization is that the Phoenix have the best and the most Shugenja... Seems a natural association.

You see, Clan War may have spotlighted Maho use in the Phoenix, but that 'one off' doesn't create traction. Traction is created via the persistence of use. Otherwise, we would always see the Crab as double-dealing Shadowlands sympathizers. We don't because we know it was done to initiate Kisada's march, and was not revisited. Not so for the Phoenix and Maho.

Maho based storytelling can be every bit as compelling as the abuse of Elemental Magic. They are effectively the same: An abuse of supernatural power. The distinction is about the mind directing the magic, or the magic directing the mind. As long as Maho is not used to subvert the mental control of the caster, the stories are effectively the same. Tsuke can burn bandits in a court yard with lightning strikes, or he can burn the Masters with black fire. Both avenues describe a villain. It's all in the execution of the story.

With that, I'll leave it there. Last word is yours.

10 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Speaking of

try PB&J flavored Oreos

Your mouth will thank you ?

New pop rock oreos. Labeled fireworks. I have never enjoyed oreos more.

5 hours ago, WHW said:

"Evil magic made me do it" is...yeah. When reading about dramatic face-heel-turns of certain characters after getting Tainted, it sometimes really felt little...too forced. Also, it kind of removed the responsibility of their ations from them, because Evil Made Them Do It.

I don't know if they're completely free of responsibility. After all the influence of the Taint is more like an addiction than mind control and certain individuals have been able to overcome it through force of will. I mean the whole point of the Damned is that they're Tainted but still able to fight against the Shadowlands.

Anyway... is anyone else suffering serious spoiler withdrawal symptoms?

purple. pony. previews. please.

Double post

4 hours ago, Anemura said:

Pointing out your contradiction is not "hair splitting". You said that if post-Clan War story was strong enough, it would have mitigated the perceived damage of the Clan War story. Meaning, the Clan War story itself did not irrevocably cement the clan's reputation. The lack of a better post-Clan War story did.

There is no contradiction when the mitigating factors never came into existence. What might have been is largely irrelevant- what we got was a bitched start that was never recovered from.

Moreover... while I think a stronger post Clan War story could have pulled off some Crab-level reappraisal among the fanbase... look at what it took for the Crab to get rehabilitated. Story time. And lots of it.

4 hours ago, Anemura said:

You see, Clan War may have spotlighted Maho use in the Phoenix, but Maho doesn't persist in the Phoenix unless factors such as its origin and mechanics support its continued inclusion.

Yeah? And? Justifying lazy writing is your argument? One of the few things that unifies the Phoenix fanbase is an agreement that they were mishandled storywise. I don;t think anybody is really happy with how they were treated in the narrative.

4 hours ago, Anemura said:

Maho based storytelling can be every bit as compelling as an Isawa abusing elemental magic. They are effectively the same: An abuse of power.

Incorrect. One is an abuse of power. The other is giving in to a temptation that you know better than to use. Especially in the case of the Phoenix, where the Tsukai tend to self-destruct inside of a year.

In short, one is an interesting examination of the internal contradictions that give the Phoenix their flavor, and one is an eye-roll-inducing use of a narrative crutch because you realize at the last second you need a bad guy and are too lazy to build one properly.

4 hours ago, Anemura said:

But what if Maho doesn't compromise the mind of the user?

What if I had Superman's powers and Batman's money?

The question has equal bearing on the matter at hand. The maho you allude to? Narratively indistinguishable from the regular mojo, so why bother?

5 hours ago, Anemura said:

Mechanically, Shugenja are more apt to pick it up because of access to Kansen. Granted, they can use spells already, so what is the need? Well, its about the quicker path to power (Sith).

Except it has never once felt to me like a quicker path to power -- just another path to power that happens to corrupt you and make you an imperial criminal. I would like to believe in a story where maho is really a temptation, but for the most part it seems like a bad deal all around. In part because it keeps being attached to characters who, with a tiny bit more effort, could accomplish basically all the same ends without corrupting their minds and bodies and putting themselves at risk for execution. I would at least believe it more if the people selling their souls for those abilities were people who don't have access to them by safer means.

This is admittedly an RPG-influenced opinion: by the mechanics there, if you strip away the exterior trappings of maho, then fundamentally speaking almost everything it does is identical to stuff you can do with elemental magic, just with a different paint job. Cause damage, impose penalties, defend yourself, etc. I would pay good money to see rules that take several things away from elemental magic -- like mind-reading and messing with people's memories -- and make those what maho can do, because then I would actually buy the idea that someone would listen to the promises of the kansen in exchange for such power.

6 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Except it has never once felt to me like a quicker path to power -- just another path to power that happens to corrupt you and make you an imperial criminal.

I've always liked the interpretation that maho was banned for the same reason gaijin pepper was banned: it threatens to break the samurai caste's dominance.

2 hours ago, Fumo said:

Anyway... is anyone else suffering serious spoiler withdrawal symptoms?

purple. pony. previews. please.

Curved Unicorn Previews.

I miss extra reveals before the big one. I'd be happy even with a good quality preview of Aggresive Moto. Or a full Endless Plains.

I just want some friggin' Pony previews so I can figure out how I'm going to splash them into my Phoenix decks.

'Cause I'm perverse like that.

8 hours ago, Anemura said:

This should prove that it was Tadaka's drive for revenge that pushed him toward a dark path, not hubris.

I still don't consider Tadaka's adventure with the Kuni as a "dark path". He just became a Super-Kuni. Welp, that happens. He didn't stray, though, and it wasn't knowledge that poisoned him, but his drive (that rooted in his hubris to avenge his ancestor, who in turn deserved no such thing and only got Tadaka because the boy was such an awesome guy in his mind).

Quote

The Black Scrolls had to be opened in order for the Day of Thunder to occur. They were also created by the original Isawa. How would you have preferred they be opened? I'm curious. What would have made more sense, and for better story?

Two options, depending on how you want your Tadaka:

- Tadaka and the Council don't open the scrolls at all, others do. They know that as long as the scrolls are closed, there can't be such a big calamity, so there is literally no reason to open them on some forlorn hope. Because, y'know, they are wise and knowledgeable, like the Phoenix should be, and know when to stop. It doesn't prevent others to eventually steal the scrolls and open them, but hey, what gives? At one point, the story swaps to Tadaka and the Council trying to re-seal the already opened scrolls, with most likely tragic results (not only they fail, but they get corrupted for their effort).

- Tadaka and the Council do open the scrolls, but they get their butts denounced, excommunicated, and either killed or cast out by the Phoenix Clan. Most likely by the hands of Kaede and Tsukune. Tadaka makes a sloppy escape, and spends the story hunted by a pissed-off Tsukune, various Asako Inquisitors, and the occasional Kuni Witch Hunter. He eventually only becomes the Phoenix Thunder because the Hooded Ronin insists, and even then, he is hated and reviled by the other Thunders, and only gets a sort of quasi-redemption when he sacrifices himself to defeat Fu Leng.

27 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I just want some friggin' Pony previews so I can figure out how I'm going to splash them into my Phoenix decks.

'Cause I'm perverse like that.

That's not perverse. I fully intend to splash Display of Power in my Unicorn deck.

Wait, unless you're calling me perverse... this. means. war.

37 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I just want some friggin' Pony previews so I can figure out how I'm going to splash them into my Phoenix decks.

'Cause I'm perverse like that.

8 minutes ago, Fumo said:

That's not perverse. I fully intend to splash Display of Power in my Unicorn deck.

Wait, unless you're calling me perverse... this. means. war.

For all I know you could both be perverse......or tainted ???? All this maho talk...

Beware .....or be cleansed ?

???jk

28 minutes ago, Fumo said:

Wait, unless you're calling me perverse... this. means. war.

War on the Crane?

Who'd have thought a deep back and forth about Maho would be in the Unicorn thread.

1 minute ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

War on the Crane?

Mantis first.

Just now, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Mantis first.

I prefer to march arm in arm with my Unicorn buddies against enemies that actually exist...

2 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Who'd have thought a deep back and forth about Maho would be in the Unicorn thread.

*raises hand*

If anyone needs an education, it's you folks. All that Meishodo nonsense ?