1 hour ago, WHW said:

I don't understand why people have problems imagining Lion basically adding new caveats and renegotiating the deal each time they felt like doing so. They were the ones who were begged for peace, and they really didn't want that peace; it was just a matter of finding enough obscure long dead traditions, quotes from ancestors put in a context that makes it look like they clearly support this solution as the only honorable one, and so on.

Again, imagine that you are sucking up to a neighbor who is a bully and who thinks that he definitely can beat you up and make everyone cheer for them, and you are asking them what do they want for not beating you up. There is nothing stopping them from renegotiating the deal whenever they feel, as long as they can make it look good.

It's not so much that I have trouble imagining it happening. It's that it bothers me if a single faction gets consistently portrayed as the setting's bullies. I mean, I've mentioned in other threads that I like the idea of more selfish behavior cropping up here and there... but only if it's spread out equally between factions. If all of that gets lumped into a single clan, it's not fair.

Of course, it's too soon to say for sure if that's going to be the case. It's just that it's starting to look like a trend, and that worries me.

And yeah, I know the Lion were portrayed as bullies in this story arc the first time around too. I'm just hoping for more even-handedness, similarly to how I'm hoping the Unicorn actually get to do something this time.

To be fair, I think this whole thing is perfectly in character for Arasou. Can you imagine him sitting all smug with his advisors, with strong sochu in hand, and telling them "...and then, after everything, we will make THEM look like bad guys, so we will be able to declare war, get Emperor on our side, and bring their Clan Champion as a war spoil to force her into the marriage anyway just so their line will forever remember that you don't go back on the deal with Lion! Hilarious!"

38 minutes ago, C2K said:

All the stories so far have been terrible in their own way. It appears so far that the clans don't even know how to take care of themselves and they are all inept(save scorpion perhaps, we will see)

well that wasn't my impression at all, but to each their own. It just sounded like each clan had issues they were dealing with at the moment.

6 minutes ago, Fumi said:

It's not so much that I have trouble imagining it happening. It's that it bothers me if a single faction gets consistently portrayed as the setting's bullies. I mean, I've mentioned in other threads that I like the idea of more selfish behavior cropping up here and there... but only if it's spread out equally between factions. If all of that gets lumped into a single clan, it's not fair.

Of course, it's too soon to say for sure if that's going to be the case. It's just that it's starting to look like a trend, and that worries me.

And yeah, I know the Lion were portrayed as bullies in this story arc the first time around too. I'm just hoping for more even-handedness, similarly to how I'm hoping the Unicorn actually get to do something this time.

I really, really agree here. First impressions are everything, but this is especially true here, particularly for newer players. I really feel FFG needs to be careful in how far they go portraying a clan's bullying or being the "bad guys", as it will likely cement that roll for the clan for years to come. I would hope all clans have a balance of flaws and redeeming qualities that show up earlier rather than later, to avoid any pigeonholing.

I didn't really get the impression that the Lion were being intentionally portrayed as badguys. If anyone is going to seem like the jerk clan to modern westerners, it will probably be the Lion over everyone else. Cultures that are ruled by warrior castes often come across as very "badguy" because of their nature.

1 minute ago, player2636234 said:

I didn't really get the impression that the Lion were being intentionally portrayed as badguys. If anyone is going to seem like the jerk clan to modern westerners, it will probably be the Lion over everyone else. Cultures that are ruled by warrior castes often come across as very "badguy" because of their nature.

I wouldn't go so far as to calling the Lion the bad guys (that term I usually keep reserved for Scorpion), but I feel like the term "bully" applies. Oddly this wasn't represented in the Lion fiction as much as it was in the others, but the impression I've been getting as the fictions release is that Lion's kinda stirring up trouble with a number of different clans all at once.

8 minutes ago, WHW said:

To be fair, I think this whole thing is perfectly in character for Arasou. Can you imagine him sitting all smug with his advisors, with strong sochu in hand, and telling them "...and then, after everything, we will make THEM look like bad guys, so we will be able to declare war, get Emperor on our side, and bring their Clan Champion as a war spoil to force her into the marriage anyway just so their line will forever remember that you don't go back on the deal with Lion! Hilarious!"

Honestly, to me he didn't seem subtle enough for that. Arasou presumably signed off on it, but this strikes me as an Ikoma ploy through and through.

... And now I'm wondering if the Ikoma daimyo cooked up this entire scheme as an excuse to get rid of his wife.

8 minutes ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

I really, really agree here. First impressions are everything, but this is especially true here, particularly for newer players. I really feel FFG needs to be careful in how far they go portraying a clan's bullying or being the "bad guys", as it will likely cement that roll for the clan for years to come. I would hope all clans have a balance of flaws and redeeming qualities that show up earlier rather than later, to avoid any pigeonholing.

Yeah. The Phoenix are also treading on thin ice right now. From what we've seen from them so far, they could easily end up looking like "the clan of religious intolerance" to new players.

1 minute ago, Fumi said:

Yeah. The Phoenix are also treading on thin ice right now. From what we've seen from them so far, they could easily end up looking like "the clan of religious intolerance" to new players.

I've been a little worried about this since the Dragon fiction. Coupled with their extremely irrational reasoning behind the kami being out of whack ("Meishodo's been around for at least 200 hundred years but only now is causing issues? BURN THE PONIES!"); it has me sweating that we're going to turn into a religious zealot clan that launches crusades against the "heathens and heretics". You throw in the potential maho and...well you get the idea.

I'm hoping, more than anything, Unicorn and Phoenix become staunch allies soon after release. Shugenja cavalry? Yes please...

16 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

I didn't really get the impression that the Lion were being intentionally portrayed as badguys. If anyone is going to seem like the jerk clan to modern westerners, it will probably be the Lion over everyone else. Cultures that are ruled by warrior castes often come across as very "badguy" because of their nature.

Isn't that a problem, though? The target audience is modern westerners. Shouldn't every faction be palatable to them?

Plus, the Unicorn and Crab are also ruled by warriors, and the writing team has managed to portray them pretty sympathetically. There's no reason they couldn't have done the same with the Lion, other than "the setting needs conflict". Which is fair enough. I just don't want it to be the same guys who start it every time.

34 minutes ago, Fumi said:

Yeah. The Phoenix are also treading on thin ice right now. From what we've seen from them so far, they could easily end up looking like "the clan of religious intolerance" to new players.

25 minutes ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

I've been a little worried about this since the Dragon fiction. Coupled with their extremely irrational reasoning behind the kami being out of whack ("Meishodo's been around for at least 200 hundred years but only now is causing issues? BURN THE PONIES!"); it has me sweating that we're going to turn into a religious zealot clan that launches crusades against the "heathens and heretics". You throw in the potential maho and...well you get the idea.

I'm hoping, more than anything, Unicorn and Phoenix become staunch allies soon after release. Shugenja cavalry? Yes please...

L5R is a game for adults, and good fiction needs conflict. Tolerance and intolerance is a solid point of conflict. Kudos if they can sell us on the intolerance first and then switch it up to expose us as the bad guys without breaking the suspended disbelief.

21 minutes ago, shosuko said:

L5R is a game for adults, and good fiction needs conflict. Tolerance and intolerance is a solid point of conflict. Kudos if they can sell us on the intolerance first and then switch it up to expose us as the bad guys without breaking the suspended disbelief.

Sure, having flaws is what makes characters/archetypes, overall, relatable, and I very much enjoy exploring the darker sides of humanity throughout a story.

But that's also not what we were talking about.

We were saying there has to be a balance of the two. If they just write about the "bad" sides of a clan and that's all anyone gets to see, even if they elude other parts, then that's all that clan becomes. When trying to appeal to a new audience this can be seriously detrimental (unless that's your goal, I suppose).

There's a less-than-PC movie quote from Tropic Thunder about going full retard that I think could fit here. I'll spare the details of the quote in case it offends.

@Isawa Kioshi I don't think anyone was concerned about the Dragon being perceived as a "bad" clan, but you voiced your concern because of their PLS and the Kami issues in the Phoenix... I don't think anyone has felt these situations created "bad guys" out of these clans.

I can understand the concern for the Lion clan - because even their own fiction didn't portray them well (imo) but Toturi is poised to be the redeeming point of the clan going forward (assuming they can tell better stories that develop his character)

Oh, no, sorry, I guess I should explain what I meant by that.

In the Dragon fiction specifically, they talk about the Phoenix having already weeded out the sect of Shinsei that differed from their own. To me, coupled with the issues with meishodo and the Unicorn, this could mean that the Phoenix are perceived as completely intolerable to new religious ideas that differ from their own, even if only a little bit, and will zealously and irrationally murder anyone that does differ (or can blame their magics not working on).

As to the Dragon, I think the clan actually made out looking just about the best, right ahead of Crab.

Anyway, my overall point of this whole thing is just to say that I don't think ANY clan coming out of the gate swinging as the "bad guys" would be good for the game, as it could stain them for the rest of the card game's existence.

Phoenix fans are just leery because at no point whatsoever during AEG's run did our guys really get to be heroic as a whole- the closest would be the end of the Khan's March, and even that boiled away into a pretty tepid scene where Naizen tells them to piss up a rope and they just take it- while enduring decades of, "you're just closeted bloodspeakers," or, even worse, "you're always either wrong, irrelevant, or evil."

The Clan War narrative really left some unfortunate scars, and it's hammered the importance of a strong beginning for a faction people are supposed to root for into us.

This was one of the better stories. I was hoping that they would go into more detail about the conflict between Phoenix and Unicorn due to their style of magic but that is a story that will have to wait for another day.

I'm looking forward to the card spoilers next week.

A Hida, a Mirumoto, and a Shinjo walk into a sake house.

Shinjo says "your straight swords are not modern enough"

Mirumoto says "katana are curved"

Shinjo says "not compared to our scimitars"

Mirumoto asks Hida "tell poor Shinjo how wrong he is and that katana are curved"

Hida spits on the ground, then, in turn, he stares Mirumoto and Shinjo each in the eyes and says "If the both of you don't shut the **** up I'm gonna shove this tetsubo straight up both yer asses"

4 hours ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

I'm hoping, more than anything, Unicorn and Phoenix become staunch allies soon after release. Shugenja cavalry? Yes please...

I can get behind buddy-ing up with the Phoenix at some point but acting like Cavalry Shugenja needs Phoenix to happen? Such arrogance! Them's fighting words!

20 minutes ago, BCumming said:

I can get behind buddy-ing up with the Phoenix at some point but acting like Cavalry Shugenja needs Phoenix to happen? Such arrogance! Them's fighting words!

Maybe we just want to see real shugenja involved. You had your chance to show magic, and you people made fireworks. At least we got a nice bonfire going.

48 minutes ago, BCumming said:

I can get behind buddy-ing up with the Phoenix at some point but acting like Cavalry Shugenja needs Phoenix to happen? Such arrogance! Them's fighting words!

Actually I was thinking more like shugenja cavalry needs Unicorn to happen. At least without blowing ourselves up (apparently we do that when trying to light a candle, so...*shrug*).

9 minutes ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

Actually I was thinking more like shugenja cavalry needs Unicorn to happen. At least without blowing ourselves up (apparently we do that when trying to light a candle, so...*shrug*).

... are you sure you aren't a Shiba? Such humility!

As our great Kami once proved; humility begets peace. I can think of no better reason to bed my knee.

6 hours ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

Oh, no, sorry, I guess I should explain what I meant by that.

In the Dragon fiction specifically, they talk about the Phoenix having already weeded out the sect of Shinsei that differed from their own. To me, coupled with the issues with meishodo and the Unicorn, this could mean that the Phoenix are perceived as completely intolerable to new religious ideas that differ from their own, even if only a little bit, and will zealously and irrationally murder anyone that does differ (or can blame their magics not working on).

As to the Dragon, I think the clan actually made out looking just about the best, right ahead of Crab.

Anyway, my overall point of this whole thing is just to say that I don't think ANY clan coming out of the gate swinging as the "bad guys" would be good for the game, as it could stain them for the rest of the card game's existence.

The thing is, there is no need for religious tolerance in a world where religion has observable, provable beyond doubt effects comparable to our own experience with laws of nature. It's not about tolerance or intolerance. In Rokugan, religion is hygiene of the soul, and abandoning it not only dooms you, but spreads the bad to the others. Forget the modern nature of religion (basically, a bunch of equal philosophies that have nothing that makes one more true than the other), and instead look at it like it's modern medicine - and these "other religions" are anti-vaccinners, creating major health risk for the entire Empire. And it's Phoenix job to take care of Empire's soul.

Basically, if in your setting your "religion" is proved to be true, you can't really look at competetive religions like you do with in our modern world.

28 minutes ago, WHW said:

The thing is, there is no need for religious tolerance in a world where religion has observable, provable beyond doubt effects comparable to our own experience with laws of nature. It's not about tolerance or intolerance. In Rokugan, religion is hygiene of the soul, and abandoning it not only dooms you, but spreads the bad to the others. Forget the modern nature of religion (basically, a bunch of equal philosophies that have nothing that makes one more true than the other), and instead look at it like it's modern medicine - and these "other religions" are anti-vaccinners, creating major health risk for the entire Empire. And it's Phoenix job to take care of Empire's soul.

Basically, if in your setting your "religion" is proved to be true, you can't really look at competetive religions like you do with in our modern world.

I liked the anti-vaxer analogy

well said

By the way, I'm pretty sure it never was touched in the actual setting, but by it's logical extension, virute of Compassion should approve of you punching Pure Land Sect until they turn straight, and physically punishing your servants - first one because you, as a samurai (or, in case of Phoenix, samurai with superior religious expertise in comparison to even other samurai!) know better and it's your duty to make sure that lesser folk (so peasants, but also less-smart samurai! compassion is not only about lower caste, but everyone under you or who cannot stand for themselves) don't stray from the right path, because in the end, it will hurt them and that will mean your failure. Second one, because punishments cleanse karma; if your servant commited a punishable mistake, it's *uncommpassionate* to not punish them, because you allow them to continue with needlessly stained karma, and it's your fault as their superior.

Compassion isn't all about being nice. Bushido, executed perfectly, would be about perfectly self-sacrificing subjects under a wise, benovelent enlightened lord.

Very much agree with this. Compassion is about much more than being nice, and being honourable is not the same thing as being 'good'.